PDA

View Full Version : Sequential Songs



leonyu13
2005-10-23, 09:35
Is there a way to group tracks that are normally listened to sequentially? For instance Queen's We will Rock You and We are the Champions; or Styx A.D. 1928 and Rockin' the Paradise. Obviously this couldn't be automatic, but I would like to be able to manually tag these.

max.spicer
2005-10-23, 10:02
How do you mean "normally listened to sequentially". Aren't you just describing genres?

Max


Is there a way to group tracks that are normally listened to sequentially? For instance Queen's We will Rock You and We are the Champions; or Styx A.D. 1928 and Rockin' the Paradise. Obviously this couldn't be automatic, but I would like to be able to manually tag these.

leonyu13
2005-10-23, 10:11
I'm talking about sequential album tracks that are essentially treated as a single song. When these songs pop up in a play list or in random play, they sound incomplete.

dean
2005-10-23, 10:16
Track number in an album?

On Oct 23, 2005, at 9:35 AM, leonyu13 wrote:

>
> Is there a way to group tracks that are normally listened to
> sequentially? For instance Queen's We will Rock You and We are the
> Champions; or Styx A.D. 1928 and Rockin' the Paradise. Obviously this
> couldn't be automatic, but I would like to be able to manually tag
> these.
>
>
> --
> leonyu13
>

Michaelwagner
2005-10-23, 10:21
Track number in an album?I think his point is, pairs that should be played as pairs even when selected during random play.

leonyu13
2005-10-23, 10:30
I think his point is, pairs that should be played as pairs even when selected during random play.

Exactly, also when selected in a shuffled playlist.

dean
2005-10-23, 10:45
On Oct 23, 2005, at 10:30 AM, leonyu13 wrote:

>
> Michaelwagner Wrote:
>
>> I think his point is, pairs that should be played as pairs even when
>> selected during random play.
>>
>
> Exactly, also when selected in a shuffled playlist.

Ok, so this is a new bit of information that needs to be tagged.
Would this tag mean "keep songs with this tag that are sequential in
an album together and never play them out of sequence"? Would it
also mean "if you play one of these, make sure you play them all"?

It reminds me of the old index numbers for CDs that were finer grain
than track numbers. My first CD player had this, but I don't think I
ever had a CD that actually used them.

Michaelwagner
2005-10-23, 11:56
Ok, so this is a new bit of information that needs to be tagged. Would this tag mean "keep songs with this tag that are sequential in an album together and never play them out of sequence"?
Well, "never" is a long time. :-)

I think if I select a specific song in a playlist and select a specific other one to come next, slim should obey me and not the "tag".

OTOH, if I select random play, slim should consider them as a pair, like those t-shirts "I came with him", "I came with her".


Would it also mean "if you play one of these, make sure you play them all"?I hadn't considered more than pairs, but I suppose one could devise a generalized mechanism. Sometimes a song has an intro, the song, and an outro (I hate that word).

Listen to Jook Joint Intro, Let the Good Times Roll and Killer Joe, from Q's Jook Joint. They go together. When I DJ, I just play Killer Joe. But for casual listening, they go together in that sequence. (and by the way, this is a place where seamless playback would be important). It's partly a property of the track, but also a function of what my listening intent is. I'm not sure where the data structure should lie, but I'm pretty sure only a part of it lives in the track itself.


It reminds me of the old index numbers for CDs that were finer grain than track numbers. My first CD player had this, but I don't think I ever had a CD that actually used them.I don't remember that. What were they supposed to do? Were they like queue points? Maybe there's something to be learned from that design.

kdf
2005-10-23, 12:33
On 23-Oct-05, at 10:45 AM, dean blackketter wrote:

>
> On Oct 23, 2005, at 10:30 AM, leonyu13 wrote:
>
>>
>> Michaelwagner Wrote:
>>
>>> I think his point is, pairs that should be played as pairs even when
>>> selected during random play.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly, also when selected in a shuffled playlist.
>
> Ok, so this is a new bit of information that needs to be tagged.
> Would this tag mean "keep songs with this tag that are sequential in
> an album together and never play them out of sequence"? Would it also
> mean "if you play one of these, make sure you play them all"?
>
I recall there used to be some sort of hack/plugin for this that used
somme text in the comment tag to keep some songs together (or at least
prevent them from being shuffled). I can't seem to find it any more
-k

bvollrath
2007-11-11, 06:21
I know this is an old thread, but I hope that someone has found an answer. I have this problem too. I have some CDs where they have the intro track followed by the song track. An example - Steve Miller's Fly Like An Eagle CD, track #1 - Space Intro followed by track #2 - Fly Like An Eagle. I do have more tracks like this and I would like to keep them as separate files on the hard drive because that is the way they are on the CD. During random playback is there a good way to link these two tracks together so they play back to back? Any help or suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks.

bephillips
2007-11-11, 16:15
This is also a feature I'd like to see. Say you've got a lot of Grateful Dead or Gov't Mule shows. These bands play certain segues commonly, like China Cat Sunflower > I Know You Rider, or Help On The Way > Slipknot! > Franklin's Tower or Mule > I've Been Working > Mule (as a taper, I would track such segues as one track, but not all tapers do this.) Or think of the final medley of songs on The Beatles' Abbey Road, You Never Give Me Your Money through The End

One usually wants to hear these songs together, and it sounds odd to the listener to hear just one isolated song from these segues. It would be nice to be able to link tracks somehow so that if one of these came up in a shuffle or random playlist that they would be included with their partner tracks.

Or this scenario: A talking intro track followed by a song track. One might only want to play the song track, and not automatically have the talking intro track included with it, but if the talking intro track comes up in a shuffle or random playlist, that it automatically always be followed by the song track.

I'm not sure how these enhancements might be accomplished with tags. Maybe a plugin whereby the user could specify rules like "If artist=Grateful Dead, and title = China Cat Sunflower and is followed by track title = I Know You Rider, then keep these tracks together when shuffling or generating random playlists." Then one could do it based on song title and not have to do it on a show by show basis. Kind of like the exclusion rules in Erlands Custom Skip plugin. This wouldn't help for all those tracks titled "Intro" or "Talk" followed by a song.

Perhaps another way to do this would be at the slim database level: Be able to link tracks from the browser UI, and this is noted in slims database, and hopefully one might be able to preserve these links when the library was cleared and rescanned. That sounds harder, but I am not a programmer.

The manual workaround of course is to look ahead in the playlist and if you see one of these tracks missing it's companion, open that album/show and manually add the companions to the playlist. (This would be easier with drag and drop playlist reordering, which I understand is happening in SC7, or can be done now in the limited slimfx skin.)

So yes something like this I would love to see in SC7, which I haven't checked out yet. (Is it time for me, the non-programmer to dip my toe into SC7 or should I wait some more?)

bephillips
2007-11-11, 16:43
This is also a feature I'd like to see. Say you've got a lot of Grateful Dead or Gov't Mule shows. These bands play certain segues commonly, like China Cat Sunflower > I Know You Rider, or Help On The Way > Slipknot! > Franklin's Tower or Mule > I've Been Working > Mule (as a taper, I would track such segues as one track, but not all tapers do this.) Or think of the final medley of songs on The Beatles' Abbey Road, You Never Give Me Your Money through The End

One usually wants to hear these songs together, and it sounds odd to the listener to hear just one isolated song from these segues. It would be nice to be able to link tracks somehow so that if one of these came up in a shuffle or random playlist that they would be included with their partner tracks.

Or this scenario: A talking intro track followed by a song track. One might only want to play the song track, and not automatically have the talking intro track included with it, but if the talking intro track comes up in a shuffle or random playlist, that it automatically always be followed by the song track.

I'm not sure how these enhancements might be accomplished with tags. Maybe a plugin whereby the user could specify rules like "If artist=Grateful Dead, and title = China Cat Sunflower and is followed by track title = I Know You Rider, then keep these tracks together when shuffling or generating random playlists." Then one could do it based on song title and not have to do it on a show by show basis. Kind of like the exclusion rules in Erlands Custom Skip plugin. This wouldn't help for all those tracks titled "Intro" or "Talk" followed by a song.

Perhaps another way to do this would be at the slim database level: Be able to link tracks from the browser UI, and this is noted in slims database, and hopefully one might be able to preserve these links when the library was cleared and rescanned. That sounds harder, but I am not a programmer.

The manual workaround of course is to look ahead in the playlist and if you see one of these tracks missing it's companion, open that album/show and manually add the companions to the playlist. (This would be easier with drag and drop playlist reordering, which I understand is happening in SC7, or can be done now in the limited slimfx skin.)

So yes something like this I would love to see in SC7, which I haven't checked out yet. (Is it time for me, the non-programmer to dip my toe into SC7 or should I wait some more?)

Eric Seaberg
2007-11-11, 18:14
I don't remember that. What were they supposed to do? Were they like queue points? Maybe there's something to be learned from that design.

As part of the CD spec there can be as many as 99-tracks and up to 99-index points within each track.

I used this a lot in post-production of TV shows where we'd need a specific sound effect from our HUGE library. Many of the CDs were indexed this way... let's say I was looking for a particular door close to match one in the picture. There could be 20 different versions of a door close (20-index points) within 1-track. Based on my database, I had used trk 43 index 12 before, so I point my CD player straight to it.

You don't see a lot of CDs doing that anymore, let alone CD players capable of it, but it is part of the CD spec and could still be used.

pfarrell
2007-11-11, 18:22
bephillips wrote:
> So yes something like this I would love to see in SC7, which I haven't
> checked out yet. (Is it time for me, the non-programmer to dip my toe
> into SC7 or should I wait some more?)

I've always wanted something like this. Two examples that I use are
the first two songs on the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's Uncle Charlie and
his Dog Teddy, which as a seque from Teddy singing into Mr Bogangles.
It makes no sense to play one without the other.

The second great seque is on Jackson Brown's Running on Empty
where "the load out" seques into "Stay"

So for most of the time, when you want one, you want the other.

I know of no way to automate this.

Pat
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

erland
2007-11-11, 21:43
I think it would be possible to do this with a plugin. The problem is just to decide how to detect that two tracks belong together.

I'm guessing that it should be safe to assume that they should be played in track number order and that the tracks are on the same album/disc ?

If that is the case it would be possible to store the information in a tag in the file. If we don't like to depend on the Custom Scan plugin, the only suitable tag available as I see it is the comment tag.

For example lets say (track 2 and track 3) and (track 5 and track 6) should be played together, while track 1 and 4 should be possible to play separately, something like this might work.

Track 1: TRACKNUMBER=1
Track 2: TRACKNUMBER=2, COMMENT=SEQ1
Track 3: TRACKNUMBER=3, COMMENT=SEQ1
Track 4: TRACKNUMBER=4
Track 5: TRACKNUMBER=5, COMMENT=SEQ2
Track 6: TRACKNUMBER=5, COMMENT=SEQ2

If implementing it with a plugin, it would check the current playlist at regular interval. If it find a track that has a COMMENT tag that starts with "SEQ" it would check if there are any other tracks on the same album/disc with the same SEQ number. If there is, it would check if these are shown together in the current playlist and if they aren't it would insert the missing tracks in the correct position.

There is to my knowledge no safe way to detect who is adding a track to the playlist, so it would work the same in both Random Mix and if you added the track manually. The result is that it will be impossible to play one of these tracks alone without also playing the sequential track.

The plugin would probably have to check maybe the 2 or 3 first items in the current playlist. The problem will be if just Track 3 is added, in this case the music starts directly and the plugin would probably not be able to detect track 3 fast enough. The result is that it would insert track 2 after a second and the music would switch to track 2 after you have heard a second of track 3. I'm not sure if this is a major problem though becuase it's probably a pretty rare situation that one of these tracks end up being the first in the playlist directly when you hit play. I think it might work fast enough on some system but not on all. I know this since I know some people that are using the Custom Skip plugin have seen issues like this.

Of course, if this was implemented inside SlimServer and not as a plugin, it would be possible to have this handling when a track is added to the current playlist. In that case there would be no problem to make sure the above issue doesn't happen. As standard SlimServer functionality it would also be possible to decide on a custom tag where this information should be stored instead of using cryptical prefix values in comment tags.

I'm personally currently too busy with other things, but if anyone likes to try to implement this as a plugin I'll be happy to provide more details.

JJZolx
2007-11-11, 22:10
One of the (many) downfalls of Random Play. What it comes down to is that if you don't want to put any effort into what you listen to, then what you get is equally mindless.

jeffmeh
2007-11-12, 07:09
Heartbreaker/Living, Loving Maid....

Of course, they already split them on the Led Zeppelin boxed set, and it always seems a bit off.

kweller
2007-11-12, 08:42
In article <bvollrath.2zvybn1194787501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>,
Bvollrath wrote:
> I do have more tracks like this and I would like to keep
> them as separate files on the hard drive because that is the way they
> are on the CD.

I'm sure we all have similar tracks. They may be like this on the CD
but I'm not sure why that should constrain you. If I am always going to
want to play particular tracks sequentially I rip them as a single
file; problem solved.

Kevin
--
Charity Motorcycle Ride: www.justgiving.com\kevinweller

eq72521
2007-11-12, 12:52
I don't remember that. What were they supposed to do? Were they like queue points? Maybe there's something to be learned from that design.

Exactly. I think it was mainly used for individual movements within tracks on some classical CDs. It turned up on some of my popular music CDs when I ripped my collection. I'd grep through the cue sheets, but I'm at work. The one I remember is Enigma's MCMXC a.D..

Brian Ritchie
2007-11-12, 16:42
I think it was mainly used for individual movements within tracks on some classical CDs. It turned up on some of my popular music CDs when I ripped my collection. I'd grep through the cue sheets, but I'm at work. The one I remember is Enigma's MCMXC a.D..

My first CD of Genesis' Foxtrot used index marks to separate the sections of Supper's Ready. My first CD player let me select them. I used it once, just for the novelty value. My second CD player didn't support index marks. I haven't seen them since.

Hyperion records often use tracks as index marks on long pieces; e.g. Robert Simpson's single-movement 9th symphony is split into 17 tracks, used for references in the booklet text. It makes no sense whatsoever to shuffle these! (Though I did do it for "fun" once.) I ripped it as a single track.

I've sometimes wished I could have a more powerful playlist language, that (for one thing) would let me group some tracks together as a unit. A playlist would contain a number of sections, which could be individual tracks, or a list of tracks; a player could be instructed to shuffle by section, but keep each section intact; or even to shuffle within a section once any track in it was selected, before going elsewhere. It would be tiresome to build such playlists, though - shuffle by album is much simpler to set up!

In a very few places, where I have a set of songs that I always want together, I've ripped them as a single track. (Returning to Genesis, I've done this with Unquiet Slumbers / In That Quiet Earth / Afterglow from Wind & Wuthering; I also have Afterflow as a separate track.)

-- Brian