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View Full Version : A real commitment to SB: sold my CD12



WSLam
2005-09-12, 00:45
Just want to share.
Ever since I got the SB2, I had not listened to a single CD. So there it was, a nice Linn CD12 sitting on my shelf collecting dust (while I sit on the couch collecting dust).
So I finally sold off my CD12. And the thing is, as perfect as the CD12 was as a CD player, I do not miss it a single bit. I am now using the SB2 with a EMM Labs DCC2. Great sound, much greater convenience. I use a Tablet PC (X41T) as my remote. Using the Touch skin, I see that as the perfect setup for me for now.

bjackson
2005-09-12, 07:07
I think you probably don't miss you Linn a "single bit", becuase you arn't missing a "Single Bit" with your SB2 with lossless CODECs..

LOL, I couldn't resist.

PhilNYC
2005-09-12, 07:46
WS...congrats! But I did notice that your signature still has the Linn Unidisk; are you still using that? By many accounts, the Unidisk is better as a transport than the CD12. And of course your beautiful EmmLabs DAC is also probably a lot better sounding than the CD12.

FWIW, I'm finding that I like listening to music using my SB2 to feed my Dodson DA-218 DAC. On critical listening (and in system demonstrations for potential customers, since I am an audio dealer), I will use my modified Sony S7700 transport because it does sound a little bit better than the SB2. But it's damn close...and my S7700 has about $1300 worth of mods on it (more than the cost of my SB2 and eMac combined!)...

WSLam
2005-09-12, 08:23
I think you probably don't miss you Linn a "single bit", becuase you arn't missing a "Single Bit" with your SB2 with lossless CODECs..

LOL, I couldn't resist.

haha! exactly!

WSLam
2005-09-12, 08:26
WS...congrats! But I did notice that your signature still has the Linn Unidisk; are you still using that? By many accounts, the Unidisk is better as a transport than the CD12. And of course your beautiful EmmLabs DAC is also probably a lot better sounding than the CD12.

Hmm, EMM has a diff sound from the CD12. CD12 is still a tad bit more 'musical', or rather maybe the EMM just offers more 'resolution' and details that the CD12 tends to 'smooth over'. But I am fine with either. I think it boils down to personal preference. There really is no absolute.

Unidisk... yes I do have it, but rarely use it. I do have some SACD that I use the Unidisk with. CD performance on the Unidisk 1.1 is so-so...SACD sounds very good, but ironically, I think DVDA sounds the best. I also use it as my DVD Video player.


FWIW, I'm finding that I like listening to music using my SB2 to feed my Dodson DA-218 DAC. On critical listening (and in system demonstrations for potential customers, since I am an audio dealer), I will use my modified Sony S7700 transport because it does sound a little bit better than the SB2. But it's damn close...and my S7700 has about $1300 worth of mods on it (more than the cost of my SB2 and eMac combined!)...

I have personally tried many transports vs the SB2. Honestly i think if the RIP are perfect, there should be NO difference. The perfect transport is to deliver the bits accurately. And once you are there, you can't go 'beyond' that.

PhilNYC
2005-09-12, 08:42
I have personally tried many transports vs the SB2. Honestly i think if the RIP are perfect, there should be NO difference. The perfect transport is to deliver the bits accurately. And once you are there, you can't go 'beyond' that.

Obviously, this is one of those topics that always stirs up some controversy...but I am one of those guys who believes that jitter can make a significant impact on sound quality (especially when dealing with the level of equipment that you own); and that things like digital cables (needing to be true 75ohms and BNC-terminated on the DAC-side) and transports can make a big difference.

To keep this on the topic of SB2, my modded-S7700 is the *only* transport I've tried that betters the SB2...others have been "different-not-better" in a variety of price ranges... :-)

cliveb
2005-09-12, 11:10
Just want to share.
Ever since I got the SB2, I had not listened to a single CD. So there it was, a nice Linn CD12 sitting on my shelf collecting dust (while I sit on the couch collecting dust).
So I finally sold off my CD12.
I have done the same thing. Since the CD12 is still highly fashionable, you probably didn't lose too much when you sold it. Unlike me - my CD player was a Micro-Seiki CD-M100; one of those Japanese "super-players" from the early 1990's (along with the likes of Accuphase). The price new was 5,500. I got 625 for it - ouch!.

It was quite an emotional wrench letting it go. I've had it since 1992, and not only was it a wonderful CD player, it was also an exquisite piece of furniture.

JulianL
2005-09-12, 17:04
Well, my SB2 arrived about 3 hours ago. I'm hoping to be sufficiently impressed that I can sell my Meridian 500 CD transport in the not too distant future. Actually, if I'm completely honest with myself, I find myself listening primarily to rock/indie/blues nowadays so I find the m500 a bit too "polite" so if the SB2 was a bit more aggressive (primarily dynamics) I would actually consider that an improvement.

Unfortunately I'm dead in the water getting any of this stuff going because I don't have a floppy disc drive in the house. (I bet no one can follow that line of reasoning, but sadly it's valid.)

- Julian

MrC
2005-09-12, 17:07
Unfortunately I'm dead in the water getting any of this stuff going because I don't have a floppy disc drive in the house. (I bet no one can follow that line of reasoning, but sadly it's valid.)
To install Windows or Linux?

JJZolx
2005-09-12, 17:13
Unfortunately I'm dead in the water getting any of this stuff going because I don't have a floppy disc drive in the house. (I bet no one can follow that line of reasoning, but sadly it's valid.)
Ok, I'll bite... Why is that?

JulianL
2005-09-12, 17:16
To install Windows or Linux?
Yup. My home machine (which was designated to run Slimserver) died last week so the final components for it's replacement arrived at the same time as my SB2. Unfortunately I went for SATA drives so I need to create the "F6 floppy" so I can install XP. I have a spare floppy to plug into the new machine so I can feed it the floppy at install time but the only working systems I have in the house right now are notebooks with no floppies so I can't create the floppy in the first place. I think I'll go and buy a USB floppy tomorrow so that I can copy the necessary files of the mobo CD-ROM and get this thing installed. It's frustrating to be floored by such a stupid thing though.

- Julian

JJZolx
2005-09-12, 17:43
Yup. My home machine (which was designated to run Slimserver) died last week so the final components for it's replacement arrived at the same time as my SB2. Unfortunately I went for SATA drives so I need to create the "F6 floppy" so I can install XP. I have a spare floppy to plug into the new machine so I can feed it the floppy at install time but the only working systems I have in the house right now are notebooks with no floppies so I can't create the floppy in the first place. I think I'll go and buy a USB floppy tomorrow so that I can copy the necessary files of the mobo CD-ROM and get this thing installed. It's frustrating to be floored by such a stupid thing though.
Unless you're planning on utilizing SATA RAID for the boot partition, then if the drives are seen by the BIOS, XP should also see them and be able to be installed.

MrC
2005-09-12, 17:46
Unless you're planning on utilizing SATA RAID for the boot partition, then if the drives are seen by the BIOS, XP should also see them and be able to be installed.
Exactly. In fact, I just did this yesterday.

JulianL
2005-09-12, 17:53
Ah, sadly I am planning to Raid 0 them. I decided to go with the fastest possible C: drive config I could (and yes, I realise that raid 0 doubles that chance of catastrophic C: drive failure so my backup regime will be rigorous).

- Julian

MrC
2005-09-12, 18:04
Well, here's a fun workaround.

Download and burn a Knoppix live Linux CD. Install your spare floppy drive in your box, and boot Knoppix. Download your RAID drivers and create a windows floppy from within Knoppix.

No USB floppy required. Save $20 and have a Linux emergency rescue disk at your disposal.

WSLam
2005-09-13, 10:29
I believe Sean has already provided very strong data on the SB2 jitter.
I do have a Big Ben, but I dont necessarily find the sound better with it in the audio chain.

ws


Obviously, this is one of those topics that always stirs up some controversy...but I am one of those guys who believes that jitter can make a significant impact on sound quality (especially when dealing with the level of equipment that you own); and that things like digital cables (needing to be true 75ohms and BNC-terminated on the DAC-side) and transports can make a big difference.

To keep this on the topic of SB2, my modded-S7700 is the *only* transport I've tried that betters the SB2...others have been "different-not-better" in a variety of price ranges... :-)

PhilNYC
2005-09-13, 11:10
I believe Sean has already provided very strong data on the SB2 jitter.

Yeah, I saw his post on the data...I believe that compared to the performance of transports from dCS and the reclocking mechanism in the Dodson, the SB2 has about 10x more jitter...still an incredibly good performance, especially at something about 100x less expensive than the dCS... :-)

Robin Bowes
2005-09-13, 11:18
PhilNYC said the following on 12/09/2005 16:42:
> WSLam Wrote:
>
>>I have personally tried many transports vs the SB2. Honestly i think if
>>the RIP are perfect, there should be NO difference. The perfect
>>transport is to deliver the bits accurately. And once you are there,
>>you can't go 'beyond' that.
>
>
> Obviously, this is one of those topics that always stirs up some
> controversy...but I am one of those guys who believes that jitter can
> make a significant impact on sound quality (especially when dealing
> with the level of equipment that you own); and that things like digital
> cables (needing to be true 75ohms and BNC-terminated on the DAC-side)
> and transports can make a big difference.

To be fair, WSLam said "The perfect transport is to deliver the bits
accurately. And once you are there, you can't go 'beyond' that."

I read this as meaning that the bits were delivered "accurately" as in
zero or low jitter.

R.
--
http://robinbowes.com

If a man speaks in a forest,
and his wife's not there,
is he still wrong?

zybar
2005-09-27, 05:27
Obviously, this is one of those topics that always stirs up some controversy...but I am one of those guys who believes that jitter can make a significant impact on sound quality (especially when dealing with the level of equipment that you own); and that things like digital cables (needing to be true 75ohms and BNC-terminated on the DAC-side) and transports can make a big difference.

To keep this on the topic of SB2, my modded-S7700 is the *only* transport I've tried that betters the SB2...others have been "different-not-better" in a variety of price ranges... :-)

I have Red Wine Audio modified SB2 and it is a very nice and noticeable improvement (pretty much across the board) over my modified Sony S-7700. My Sony S-7700 is modified by the same person who did Phil's, but it doesn't have all of the mods that Phil's unit has.

Maybe I need to visit Phil and bring my SB2 and see how it compares...

George

mauidan
2005-09-27, 10:44
A friend of mine has a modified SB2, and he prefers the sound
of his modified Stello CDT200 transport.

I agree that Sean's SB2 jitter measurements are very impressive
for a low cost component. It would be interesting to take new jitter measurements on a modified SB2.

Instead modding the SB2, I suggest SB2 users with an external DAC, try feeding the SB2's digital signal thru a Genesis Digital Lens for buffering/jitter reduction. The DL also converts the SPDIF to AES/EBU for use with pro DACs. ;-) Dan

Mark_H
2005-09-28, 02:40
What is going to distinguish a transport from the SB2 in terms of sound quality? Jitter? Error-correction during reading? What else could be limiting the SB2 when working with lossless sources enough that a transport could outperform it?

Mark

bludragon
2005-09-28, 03:19
Jitter, and RFI (electrical interference) are the two areas that should matter. Error-correction will be dependant on what you use to rip the files in the first place, and as long as you're not using damaged cd's this shouldn't be an issue.

Bear in mind that the jitter that matters is located at the end of the spdif link, and this may be completly different to the level measured within the transport.

joshk
2005-09-28, 08:21
I think it is also important to note that Sean's measured jitter were taken using a super regulated linear supply, not the bone-stock switching supply that comes with the SB2. I think if Phil were to use such a linear supply (like the one I gave him) maybe the tides would change? Don't know.

Mark_H
2005-09-28, 08:41
For error-correction I was referring to the transport reading the CD in real time. Clearly SB2 has the advantage here as it can EAC rip for perfect replay every time.

So, assuming that the only limiting factors are jitter and RFI, and assuming those can be tweaked to outperform a given CD transport then there is no reason why the SB2 shouldn't outperform any given transport?

Mark

Patrick Dixon
2005-09-28, 08:55
So, assuming that the only limiting factors are jitter and RFI, and assuming those can be tweaked to outperform a given CD transport then there is no reason why the SB2 shouldn't outperform any given transport?

MarkAgreed - although using it as just a 'transport', you will still be hamstrung by the SPDIF interface, and the difficulties of extracting a jitter-free clock from the transmitted digital stream. Far better to combine an 'audiophile' dac implementation within the SB, as we have done - see http://www.at-view.co.uk/sb2.htm. I'll put some pictures up there soon!

mauidan
2005-09-28, 10:40
So, assuming that the only limiting factors are jitter and RFI, and assuming those can be tweaked to outperform a given CD transport then there is no reason why the SB2 shouldn't outperform any given transport?

Mark

Mark- when you have some spare time take a look at:

http://www.scientificonversion.com/AES13pre.pdf

it will give you an idea of the factors which can effect the quality of a digital signal path.

Aberdeen Components has applied this research in their TacT, Boz, SB2 and Stello mods. I have it in my buffered transport, RCS and 2150.

Maybe an 'audiophile' dac implementation within the SB2 is the best way to go for most users, but for those of us using a digital processor between the source and amplifers, we still a digital signal. IMO, Slim Devices should offer a digital out only SB with AES/EBU and maybe upsampling like the new LyngdorfAudio CD-1 transport. - Dan

Mark_H
2005-09-28, 10:47
Thanks Dan, will take a look.

Mark

seanadams
2005-09-28, 11:52
I think it is also important to note that Sean's measured jitter were taken using a super regulated linear supply, not the bone-stock switching supply that comes with the SB2. I think if Phil were to use such a linear supply (like the one I gave him) maybe the tides would change? Don't know.

No, that was with the stardard power supply.

Rupert Dacat
2005-10-23, 08:18
Mark- when you have some spare time take a look at:

http://www.scientificonversion.com/AES13pre.pdf

it will give you an idea of the factors which can effect the quality of a digital signal path.




That link does not work for me. Would you please re-check it?


Thanks,

Rupe

Rupert Dacat
2005-10-23, 08:22
http://www.at-view.co.uk/images/SB2+/SB2++PSU.jpg

I am not affiliated in any way with the company offering this. I simply liked the picture.


Rupe