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max.spicer
2005-09-10, 03:01
I've got a list of tracks that I'd like to own, but don't necessarily like the artists enough to go out and by the relevant albums (yet). Currently, my entire music collection is ripped from my cd collection, but I'd now like to start adding just the odd single mp3/flac (I'll just say mp3 from now on). I'm a total newbie to this side of mp3s, so wondered if anyone could help out. Are there sites where you can just buy tracks that can then be played on my SB2? I'm dimly aware of itunes and the like, and the horrible DRM monster that's associated with them. Ideally, I'd like some plain old mp3s, but would settle for DRM stuff, provided I can actually listen to it (I realise that's somewhat against the whole point of DRM!). One thing to note is that I can't really go with one of the monthly subscription service as I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

Ta,

Max

danco
2005-09-10, 03:15
On 10/9/05 at 03:01 -0700, max.spicer wrote
> I'm dimly aware of
>itunes and the like, and the horrible DRM monster that's associated
>with them. Ideally, I'd like some plain old mp3s, but would settle for
>DRM stuff, provided I can actually listen to it (I realise that's
>somewhat against the whole point of DRM!).

If you have to (it's obviously not the preferred solution), you can -
depending on your operating system - buy a program that will
broadcast any sound, and the broadcast stream can be played by the
SB. Nicecast does this on the Mac, and I think winamp does it on a PC.



--
Daniel Cohen

DrNic
2005-09-10, 03:26
Hi
I think it really depends on the type of music you like to listen to. I use a great site for "Dance" music called Beatport (www.beatport.com) that allows instant download of 320kbps MP3's or shipment of the WAV files to you on CD.
There are loads of others to check out, I'm not sure about plain old Middle-of-the-Road music downloads or other genres but these sites do exist.

Nic

max.spicer
2005-09-10, 03:45
I think it's safe to say that I listen to pretty much all sorts of music. One of the tracks I'm after atm is Sweet Home Alabama, but don't take that is representative of my tastes in music!

Max


Hi
I think it really depends on the type of music you like to listen to. I use a great site for "Dance" music called Beatport (www.beatport.com) that allows instant download of 320kbps MP3's or shipment of the WAV files to you on CD.
There are loads of others to check out, I'm not sure about plain old Middle-of-the-Road music downloads or other genres but these sites do exist.

Nic

essbee1964
2005-09-10, 04:05
Try www.allofmp3.com a Russian site, totally legal. The songs are cheap and can be encoded at the bitrate you choose.

shaun

cliveb
2005-09-10, 05:48
Try www.allofmp3.com a Russian site, totally legal.
That is a questionable statement. It is legal in Russia because that country has such lax copyright laws. But it doesn't alter the fact that the artists whose work they are selling do not get a royalty.

(Incidentally, to Max, re. Sweet Home Alabama: perhaps you should just go out and buy The Essential Lynyrd Skynrd - a compilation double CD stuffed full of great songs).

stinkingpig
2005-09-10, 08:42
cliveb wrote:

>essbee1964 Wrote:
>
>
>>Try www.allofmp3.com a Russian site, totally legal.
>>
>>
>That is a questionable statement. It is legal in Russia because that
>country has such lax copyright laws. But it doesn't alter the fact that
>the artists whose work they are selling do not get a royalty.
>
>(Incidentally, to Max, re. Sweet Home Alabama: perhaps you should just
>go out and buy The Essential Lynyrd Skynrd - a compilation double CD
>stuffed full of great songs).
>
>
check out your neighborhood used record store, you can get the CD cheap
and sell it back to them if you don't like it.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org : It's a Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
so across the Western ocean I must wander." -- All for Me Grog, traditional

MrC
2005-09-10, 08:51
Yes, and you can also order some very cheap used CDs from places like Amazon. I've purchased discs for $.01, basically, just the cost of shipping.

radish
2005-09-10, 09:03
I'd second the love for beatport, but it's library is obviously very specific. There are a ton of great (legal) mp3 download sites for dance music, which makes me happy to be a DJ :) If you like beatport, try also audiojelly.com, playittonight.com, id-t.com etc. Great stuff.

As for non-dance music, well, it's tougher. I'll ignore allofmp3, because it is of dubious legality and, more importantly, doesn't give any money to the people who own or created the music. The reason I use legal downloads rather than Kazaa or whatever is not to be legal - the chances of getting caught if you know what you're doing are basically zero - but to be morally right by rewarding the artists. Several of my friends are musicians and I really don't want to rip them off.

So that basically leaves DRM sites for the majority of established (i.e. non-indy) artists. Of those, I have to say iTunes is probably the easiest to work with. They have a decent catalogue, and the DRM allows you to burn to a CD and then you can rerip from there. It's a pain, but it's legal, and the artists get their cut. I'd mention here that of course the sound quality is far from great, especially if you recompress after ripping, so I'd second the advice of picking up the CD used. Amazon have a great system - I picked up a ton of great CDs used for under $1 each (plus shipping) a few weeks ago.

Dave D
2005-09-10, 09:14
there sites where you can just buy tracks that can then be played on my SB2? I'm dimly aware of itunes and the like, and the horrible DRM monster that's associated with them. Ideally, I'd like some plain old mp3s, but would settle for DRM stuff, provided I can actually listen to it (I realise that's somewhat against the whole point of DRM!). One thing to note is that I can't really go with one of the monthly subscription service as I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

I am right there with you on this. I've looked for sites which sell single-track mp3s which can be played on SB2. Any I've found that sell unprotected files generally only have tracks I've never heard of. I don't want to get a service; wouldn't use it that much. I'd pay 2-3 bucks for a track if I could play it anywhere and get it in a non-lossy format (if I buy the music, I want to buy _all_ the music.)

Someone told me about a method which may or may not be legal. It is probably similar to what Daniel mentioned. You can buy the protected files, then re-record them on Windows using something like Audacity. I have no idea what the resulting quality would be. I have not tried this yet; just no time or patience for it.

The same person who told me about Audacity does not actually use it. He had an interesting point: those who have more time than money (e.g. high school & college students) can easily circumvent the protection using the method above or others. They don't care if it takes them 15-30 minutes each time they re-record a track. Those of us with more money than time really don't want to go through the hassle of circumventing the laws, but there are few, if any, options for us to be able to play our purchased music where we want to.

I'll be honest: I don't own an iPod or other mp3 player (just SB2) and have a very small collection of CDs. I listen mostly to internet music. But I've been writing down names of songs I've heard which I would like to own. I'd like to be able to buy them somewhere and be able to add them to my ripped music collection.

Silly laws.

Hey, would it be a good idea for a sticky forum thread which would be a list of sites where you can purchase unprotected tracks?

water
2005-09-10, 09:33
http://emusic.com is a really great site with tons of indy music :)

:water

Dave Dewey
2005-09-10, 09:43
Quoting max. spicer (max.spicer.1v512b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):

> I've got a list of tracks that I'd like to own, but don't necessarily
> like the artists enough to go out and by the relevant albums (yet).
> Currently, my entire music collection is ripped from my cd collection,
> but I'd now like to start adding just the odd single mp3/flac (I'll
> just say mp3 from now on). I'm a total newbie to this side of mp3s, so
> wondered if anyone could help out. Are there sites where you can just
> buy tracks that can then be played on my SB2? I'm dimly aware of
> itunes and the like, and the horrible DRM monster that's associated
> with them. Ideally, I'd like some plain old mp3s, but would settle for
> DRM stuff, provided I can actually listen to it (I realise that's
> somewhat against the whole point of DRM!). One thing to note is that I
> can't really go with one of the monthly subscription service as I
> wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

I use emusic pretty extensively. They are constantly adding to their
collection, and I easily find enough music there to cover the montly
subscription. You can just join for a month and then cancel, there isn't a
long-term commitment.

I also use the iTunes store to download music, and then remove the DRM. It's
an easy process that doesn't take anywhere near the 15-30 minutes quoted
elsewhere in this thread. It's a simple, drag-and-drop non-techie process.


http://www.emusic.com
http://hymn-project.org/jhymndoc/

stinkingpig
2005-09-10, 09:48
water wrote:

>http://emusic.com is a really great site with tons of indy music :)
>
>:water
>
>
>
>
I dig emusic, it's introduced me to some really great bands. They also
have a great catalog of folk, blues, classic country (basically all the
Smithsonian library). There's a lot of classical too, but I'm not a
complete classical nut and can't say if it's terribly good or bad :)

Another way to find new music (tangential to the OP's issue though) is
Audioscrobbler and http://last.fm. It's been useful to see that people
who like the stuff I like also like things that I haven't heard of, then
I go look on emusic and download it :)

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org : It's a Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
so across the Western ocean I must wander." -- All for Me Grog, traditional

Dave D
2005-09-10, 09:58
I also use the iTunes store to download music, and then remove the DRM. It's an easy process that doesn't take anywhere near the 15-30 minutes quoted elsewhere in this thread. It's a simple, drag-and-drop non-techie process.

This is interesting info, but I'll bet if you use this and get caught, you'll spend a bit more than 15-30 minutes in jail.

Dave Dewey
2005-09-10, 10:06
Quoting Dave D (Dave.D.1v5k9z (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com):

>
> Dave Dewey Wrote:
> > I also use the iTunes store to download music, and then remove the DRM.
> > It's an easy process that doesn't take anywhere near the 15-30 minutes
> > quoted elsewhere in this thread. It's a simple, drag-and-drop
> > non-techie process.
>
> This is interesting info, but I'll bet if you use this and get caught,
> you'll spend a bit more than 15-30 minutes in jail.

Highly unlikely.

I don't redistribute the stripped files, I PAID for them in the first place,
and I only go to these measures so that I can use the media I've paid for on
the device of my choice. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure Apple isn't
going to prosecute me for buying music from them. If JHymn didn't exist, I
would never purchase music from the Apple Store. Since it does, I spend
probably $15 a month there. Bring on the handcuffs!

Read this.
http://www.hymn-project.org/

JJZolx
2005-09-10, 10:08
check out your neighborhood used record store, you can get the CD cheap
and sell it back to them if you don't like it.
Of course, if you rip the CD, then it would be a copyright violation to keep the extracted audio in your collection once you no longer own the CD.

(FWIW: I am not a lawyer and don't pretend to be telling anyone what they should do, nor do I care.)

Wayne1
2005-09-10, 10:12
You just might want to take a look in your local public library.

At least here in the Metro Denver area, the library catalog is on-line. You can browse for certain artists and request a CD without leaving your house.

Dave D
2005-09-10, 10:32
Read this.
http://www.hymn-project.org/

I did.

I got far enough in the FAQ to see that JHymn needs to log into an Apple server, pretending to be a legitimate computer running iTunes, in order to get a key to unlock the tunes. If you want to take that chance, great.

I don't disagree with your sentiment about the DCMA law (it's unclear, unfair, largely unenforcable, and can be interpreted as being all-encompassing.) I don't disagree with the logic that you paid for the song and should be able to listen to it whereever you want. And I don't disagree with your logic that your willingness to spend money at iTunes is partly driven by your ability to circumvent DRM.

All I'm saying is, if you get caught, and if they wish to prosecute, you will have no leg to stand on, and unless you have deep pockets, you will be unable to fund a defense.

I've got a family to support. I don't need any legal hassles. What you do is up to you.

Thanks for the link, though. It's very interesting; I've often wondered if anyone had cracked DRM. This is one way around it.

Victor Brilon
2005-09-10, 10:47
On Sep 10, 2005, at 12:32 PM, Dave D wrote:

>
> Dave Dewey Wrote:
>
>> Read this.
>> http://www.hymn-project.org/
>>
>
> I did.
>
> I got far enough in the FAQ to see that JHymn needs to log into an
> Apple server, pretending to be a legitimate computer running
> iTunes, in
> order to get a key to unlock the tunes. If you want to take that
> chance, great.
>

I am not a lawyer, but my (pretty extensive) research on this issue
comes up with results that are not as clear cut as yours.

JHymn logs into an Apple server to get *your* FairPlay keys, not some
random hacker keys, or whatnot. Thus, you're modifying music that
you've paid for, using keys that you've been given a right to use to
access that music.

So at worst, you've violated Apple's Terms of Use (the discussion
about whether click-thru licenses are even legal to start with is a
separate one altogether), but I have a hard time seeing this
violating the DCMA. Plus, we all knowing, modifying DRM'ed music is
double plus ungood, right? :)

Or let me rephrase the argument this way: JHymn has been around for a
long time now. If there was any hint of DCMA violation, I think Apple
would have nuked them from orbit with their army of lawyers, which as
we know they're not shy about using.

Just my $.02 on this.

Victor

kolepard
2005-09-10, 11:20
>If you want to take that chance, great...if you get caught, and if
>they wish to prosecute, you will have no leg to stand on, and unless
>you have deep pockets, you will be unable to fund a defense.
>
>I've got a family to support. I don't need any legal hassles. What
>you do is up to you.

Ah, the legal thugs of the RIAA just had a warm fuzzy moment.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard
kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Lee Harris
2005-09-10, 11:36
>check out your neighborhood used record store, you can get the CD cheap
and sell it back to them if you don't like it.

....having then deleted Sweet Home Alabama from your mp3 library in order to
stay legal...

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Coates [mailto:jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org]
Sent: 10 September 2005 16:42
To: Slim Devices Discussion
Subject: Re: [slim] Re: Obtaining mp3s/flac/whatever legally

cliveb wrote:

>essbee1964 Wrote:
>
>
>>Try www.allofmp3.com a Russian site, totally legal.
>>
>>
>That is a questionable statement. It is legal in Russia because that
>country has such lax copyright laws. But it doesn't alter the fact that
>the artists whose work they are selling do not get a royalty.
>
>(Incidentally, to Max, re. Sweet Home Alabama: perhaps you should just
>go out and buy The Essential Lynyrd Skynrd - a compilation double CD
>stuffed full of great songs).
>
>
check out your neighborhood used record store, you can get the CD cheap and
sell it back to them if you don't like it.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org : It's a Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, so across the Western
ocean I must wander." -- All for Me Grog, traditional

danco
2005-09-10, 13:06
On 10/9/05 at 09:14 -0700, Dave D wrote
>Someone told me about a method which may or may not be legal. It is
>probably similar to what Daniel mentioned. You can buy the protected
>files, then re-record them on Windows using something like Audacity. I
>have no idea what the resulting quality would be. I have not tried this
>yet; just no time or patience for it.

Not really similar to what I suggested, and the legality may differ.
Your suggestion provides a *permanent* un-DRM version of the song,
whereas mine always uses the DRM version, in a way not all that
different from just connecting to sound output of the computer to an
input on the stereo system.
--
Daniel Cohen

Jim
2005-09-10, 14:12
allofmp3.com is quite a good site, and even if rumours of it being just one big criminal enterprise were true I for one would rather be sending money to the Russian mafia than to the RIAA.

However you obtained your music there is not much chance of being caught if you are not sharing it with others - note that by downloading in a P2P program you are actually forced to upload, and thus sharing with others.

If the record company cannot provide you with a easy, reasonably priced method of getting just 1 track in lossless FLAC quality then you will either have to purchase lossy DRM crap or break copyright law.

But breaking the law isn't necessarily going to make you go to hell, as for instance you could be a Chinese citizen breaking the law by running a free-speech website and would everyone on here frown at that?

You can make yourself feel better by sending the artist the money directly or donating to the artist's favourite charity. Either way, it would be worth writing to the record company and artist explaining (anonymously of course) why you felt there was no reasonable option other than to do this.

radish
2005-09-10, 14:41
allofmp3.com is quite a good site, and even if rumours of it being just one big criminal enterprise were true I for one would rather be sending money to the Russian mafia than to the RIAA.
Really? Personally I'm not into supporting drug dealing, murder, extortion, forced prostitution, etc. I mean the RIAA aren't great, but they're not that bad.



If the record company cannot provide you with a easy, reasonably priced method of getting just 1 track in lossless FLAC quality then you will either have to purchase lossy DRM crap or break copyright law.

Or you could just not buy the music. I mean, does the fact that my local supermarket only sells eggs in 6 packs mean I have the right to steal as many eggs as I like? The label own the music - it's entirely up to them how they choose to sell it to you. It's entirely up to you to accept their terms or not. It is not your right to make up your own terms. I agree that they're being stupid and missing out on a great business opportunity, but it's their right to make that mistake.



But breaking the law isn't necessarily going to make you go to hell, as for instance you could be a Chinese citizen breaking the law by running a free-speech website and would everyone on here frown at that?

Some laws are bad. Some are good. This isn't about the law (as has been pointed out, the likleyhood of getting caught is tiny) it's about doing the right thing. Your view of what that is is personal. I am involved in the creation of copyrighted works - it's what puts food on my table. Therefore, personally, I support the artists and their right to be paid for their work. The fact that they have decided that they want to be paid via CD sales from a major label is their business. I would prefer it if the artists I liked made all their music available for paid, non-DRM download (as many do) but it's their choice in the end. My choice is whether I buy the product or not.



You can make yourself feel better by sending the artist the money directly or donating to the artist's favourite charity. Either way, it would be worth writing to the record company and artist explaining (anonymously of course) why you felt there was no reasonable option other than to do this.
Now that's a good idea. Of course lots of people suggest this but I seriously doubt anyone's ever done it.

bjackson
2005-09-10, 16:04
Has anyone checked their flacs for bit-perfect? I've always wondered if they really store them as 384 mp3's like everything else and just transcode back.

Mitch Harding
2005-09-10, 16:07
If they did that, why are only some of their songs available in FLAC format?

On 9/10/05, bjackson <bjackson.1v616b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone checked their flacs for bit-perfect? I've always wondered if
> they really store them as 384 mp3's like everything else and just
> transcode back.
>
>
> --
> bjackson
>

max.spicer
2005-09-11, 08:49
I have to say that given the choice of buying a track from some outfit that in no way benefits the original artists or just getting it via p2p, I'd go for the latter. Admittedly, there are probably many recording deals out there that mean that artists no longer benefit from sales of there work, but at least they got money originally and assumedly agreed to the detail in the first place (albeit possibly by failing to check the small print). However, I've just bought myself a copy of Lynyrd Skynyrd - The Collection, which has Sweet Home Alabama as the first track, and gets me another 16 tracks that I've never heard of. It's disappointing to find out that I don't seem to be able to just buy a track somewhere, but then I like buying albums anyway, I guess!

Max


allofmp3.com is quite a good site, and even if rumours of it being just one big criminal enterprise were true I for one would rather be sending money to the Russian mafia than to the RIAA.

However you obtained your music there is not much chance of being caught if you are not sharing it with others - note that by downloading in a P2P program you are actually forced to upload, and thus sharing with others.

If the record company cannot provide you with a easy, reasonably priced method of getting just 1 track in lossless FLAC quality then you will either have to purchase lossy DRM crap or break copyright law.

But breaking the law isn't necessarily going to make you go to hell, as for instance you could be a Chinese citizen breaking the law by running a free-speech website and would everyone on here frown at that?

You can make yourself feel better by sending the artist the money directly or donating to the artist's favourite charity. Either way, it would be worth writing to the record company and artist explaining (anonymously of course) why you felt there was no reasonable option other than to do this.

Michaelwagner
2005-09-11, 09:23
check out your neighborhood used record store, you can get the CD cheap
and sell it back to them if you don't like it.
Here in Ontario there's a place called the beat goes on
beatgoeson.com
works great. You can pick through their inventory of currently available used CDs online and show up at the store to claim them. They also do online charge and they do delivery, but my local store is about 1 mile away, so that's what I always do.

mikerob
2005-09-11, 15:08
For dance music check out www.stompy.com

WAV and mp3 downloads, however downloading WAV files takes forever...

JJZolx
2005-09-11, 15:24
I have to say that given the choice of buying a track from some outfit that in no way benefits the original artists or just getting it via p2p, I'd go for the latter. Admittedly, there are probably many recording deals out there that mean that artists no longer benefit from sales of there work, but at least they got money originally and assumedly agreed to the detail in the first place (albeit possibly by failing to check the small print). However, I've just bought myself a copy of Lynyrd Skynyrd - The Collection, which has Sweet Home Alabama as the first track, and gets me another 16 tracks that I've never heard of. It's disappointing to find out that I don't seem to be able to just buy a track somewhere, but then I like buying albums anyway, I guess!
Don't you like discovering new music? You've never heard of any other Lynyrd Skynyrd songs? Freebird?

Like many thirty year old hits songs, it's probably on many, many albums. Go to http://www.allmusic.com, do a song search, and then find another album that it's on (by Skynyrd, not a cover). I'd guess it's on no less than 20 albums, including some sound tracks (Forrest Gump) or other compilations that you might like if you really don't want to discover Lynyrd Skynyrd. Many of them will be available for under $7. Why buy a crummy mp3 for $1?

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:r78e4j270way

http://www.alldirect.com/music/mItem.asp?mitemNo=081227063528

cmturner2
2005-09-11, 17:10
<Removed because I have no desire to get into these kinds of arguments here.>

Michaelwagner
2005-09-11, 17:32
The first sale doctrine makes the reselling of audio CD's (after you've done anything you want with them) perfectly legal.

Actually, that's not what it says.

It says the original copyright holder cannot prevent the resale of second-hand CDs and force you to buy a new copy at retail from them directly.

However, I believe your rights to make and enjoy "fair use" copies of music (to your hard disk, your favorite old 8-track media, etc) exist by virtue of your ownership of the physical media and end when you no longer have title to the media (an issue that isn't covered in the article you quoted, because it's not part of the first-sale doctrine).

Michael

Disclaimer: I'm no lawyer, I anyways don't live in the USofA, the laws here are different, etc.

Michaelwagner
2005-09-11, 17:34
the distribution rights of a copyright holder end on that particular copy once the copy is sold.

The distribution rights end on the first sale.

Your rights to have a copy of the song on a different medium end on the second sale (when you sell it).

cmturner2
2005-09-11, 20:51
<Removed because I have no desire to get into these kinds of arguments here.>

Michaelwagner
2005-09-11, 22:27
Indeed, that is what the RIAA would like you to believe.
The point is, the document you quoted is moot on this point.

You are chosing to interpret it in a way that is favourable to you. But the quoted document doesn't say what you're claiming it says.

In the case of software, a similar enough situation, it says the courts have disagreed and so there is no clear cut "law of the land" at this point. It also says a supreme court ruling will likely be necessary to resolve the disagreement amongst the lower court decisions.

Rather than relying on narrowly construed legal decisions, why don't you use common sense? If the law were truly to be construed in the way you describe, each artist might have only one sale, to you, say, who would copy it to their hard disk and sell it to their neighbour, who would do the same and sell it to their neighbour, etc. In this way, the artist would be paid only one royalty. Clearly this would not be enough to live on, the artist would have to move on to another line of work, and no music would ever be recorded again.

If the law were to be construed as you say, artists would get no royalties and the business of recorded music would collapse (live performances might still sustain some artists). At which point the law wouldn't matter because there'd be no recorded music to copy.

So it's a wonderful rationalization, (perhaps) narrowly within the law, but when all is said and done, both morally wrong and non-self-sustaining as a business model.

Michael

abdomen
2005-09-12, 07:56
So it's a wonderful rationalization, (perhaps) narrowly within the law, but when all is said and done, both morally wrong and non-self-sustaining as a business model.

Michael

Very well said.

Dave D
2005-09-12, 08:30
Very well said.

I agree.

I wish this thread could go back to where it started. Not trying to command the discussion's direction; just interested in replies to the original request [slightly edited]:


Are there sites where you can just buy tracks that can then be played on my SB2? [...] Ideally, I'd like some plain old mp3s, but would settle for DRM stuff, provided I can actually listen to it. [...] One thing to note is that I can't really go with one of the monthly subscription service as I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

I hear a lot of great stuff on internet radio which I'll bet is not mainstream and might be available on some site for non-DRM download. I've seen replies in this thread for dance music. How about acoustic, folk, jazz?

cliveb
2005-09-12, 11:24
If the law were to be construed as you say, artists would get no royalties and the business of recorded music would collapse
I agree with your interpretation of the law. When you sell your legally-bought CD to someone else, your right to retain copies on other media ends.

But your "common-sense" rationalisation of why the law is that way is not realistic. The simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of recording artists receive little or no royalites - the recording industry (fourth most corrupt institution in the world after organised crime, government and religion) sees to that via it's "standard operating practices". The only artists who ever receive fair return for their work are (i) superstars, and (ii) those very few who are savvy enough to refuse the initial advance and fund their own recordings, thus retaining ownership of their own work.

This is not meant as encouragement to obtain music illegally. I am merely pointing out that by breaking the law you're not hurting the artists; rather you're hurting the recording industry.

max.spicer
2005-09-12, 12:03
You misunderstood me. Buying the cd was a good thing, getting tracks I've never heard of is a good thing. I was just disappointed to find out that I couldn't get just one track via this whole new internet thing. ;-)

Max


Don't you like discovering new music? You've never heard of any other Lynyrd Skynyrd songs? Freebird?

Like many thirty year old hits songs, it's probably on many, many albums. Go to http://www.allmusic.com, do a song search, and then find another album that it's on (by Skynyrd, not a cover). I'd guess it's on no less than 20 albums, including some sound tracks (Forrest Gump) or other compilations that you might like if you really don't want to discover Lynyrd Skynyrd. Many of them will be available for under $7. Why buy a crummy mp3 for $1?

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:r78e4j270way

http://www.alldirect.com/music/mItem.asp?mitemNo=081227063528

Michaelwagner
2005-09-12, 14:00
I agree with your interpretation of the law. When you sell your legally-bought CD to someone else, your right to retain copies on other media ends.

The only artists who ever receive fair return for their work are (i) superstars, and (ii) those very few who are savvy enough to refuse the initial advance.
(iii) Canadians.

I believe the law is different in this area in Canada. At least, musician friends tell me they don't get much in the way of royalties for US sales, but do better in Canada. Also air plays. But I'm not conversant with the details. Not being a musician myself.

Back to the original question ... there were some subscription sites about a year ago last I checked. About a buck a download. But when I checked, their catalogue was mediocre. May have changed in the mean time, for better or worse, don't know.

ob_kook
2005-10-03, 00:55
One way to get around the copywright question is to go with music that has the blessing of the owners. There is a good site for this called "Live Music Archive" (http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php), which has live shows posted by those who taped them either from the audience or sometimes patching into the soundboard.

Of course, you are limited to the bands that allow this which means you don't get many mainstream bands, but on the other hand, it is a fantastic way to explore new music and expand your own musical horizon.

The majority of the shows are lossless (SHN) format and are pretty big, but there are also a lot of VBR-MP3 shows too.

Now, to end with an off-topic remark, I highly recommend checking out The Mermen.

=?UTF-8?B?TXIgTsO1dQ==?=
2005-10-03, 01:10
ob_kook wrote:
> One way to get around the copywright question is to go with music that
> has the blessing of the owners. There is a good site for this called
> "Live Music Archive"
> (http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php), which has live
> shows posted by those who taped them either from the audience or
> sometimes patching into the soundboard.
>
> Of course, you are limited to the bands that allow this which means you
> don't get many mainstream bands, but on the other hand, it is a
> fantastic way to explore new music and expand your own musical
> horizon.

Related: The latest episode of NerdTV features an hour long interview
with the archive founder Brewster Kahle. Mucho worth listening to. Best
one so far, with Macintosh guru Herzfeld a close second.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/nerdtv/

(No, after four episodes, I am still no fan of the way Cringley uses the
video media to portray the same speaking head with no editing no
nothing. Adds zero to the interview experience. Just download the audio
and listen away.)

/peter

Pale Blue Ego
2005-10-03, 17:27
Believe it or not, lots of artists and even record companies are GIVING AWAY mp3s. (Telarc even offers some tracks at 320k).

I would check artist websites and small, high quality record labels. What we should do is create a list of good sites that offer free downloads. Here are a few I know of:

www.telarc.com
www.davidsylvian.com

Another way is to use opensource software called iRate - it lets you sample free downloads from artists' websites, rate them, and easily find the stuff you like. There are something like 46,000 songs in the iRate database.

http://irate.sourceforge.net/index.html

Similar to iRate is "Indy", a windows program that does the same thing.

http://indy.tv/

I just installed Indy, and it's pretty cool. It actually saves each song in a folder according to how you rated it. So you can always go to your 4-star and 5-star folders and add the stuff you liked to your collection.

There is also Screamer Radio. This is an internet radio player that allows you to save a copy of a song if you like it. Many of the station presets are the same ones that slimserver lists. You can let Screamer save everything it plays, or just save individual songs as you hear them.

http://www.screamer-radio.com/

Mike Anderson
2005-10-03, 17:43
[EDITED for likely error (don't want to give anyone bad legal advice).]

Mike Anderson
2005-10-03, 17:47
Oh yeah, my own website offers lots of free music too:

http://freeradicalradio.com

pfarrell
2005-10-03, 18:18
On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 17:43 -0700, Mike Anderson wrote:
> It is NOT a criminal action to purchase iTunes songs and strip the DRM
> encryption, as long as you don't redistribute the music yourself.
> There's no copyright violation there; DRM is Apple's way of not having
> to depend on the copyright laws.

IANAL, but are you sure about that? The DMCA has a lot of verbiage
about breaking the DRMs, etc.

To me, the DRM is a way to keep honest people honest and miffed.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com

Mike Anderson
2005-10-03, 18:42
On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 17:43 -0700, Mike Anderson wrote:
> It is NOT a criminal action to purchase iTunes songs and strip the DRM
> encryption, as long as you don't redistribute the music yourself.
> There's no copyright violation there; DRM is Apple's way of not having
> to depend on the copyright laws.

IANAL, but are you sure about that? The DMCA has a lot of verbiage
about breaking the DRMs, etc.

To me, the DRM is a way to keep honest people honest and miffed.



You could be right; I'll back off my statement. I'm not an expert on DMCA at all.

Note that the relevant provision:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c105:6:./temp/~c105k7qWur:e11962:

does maintain fair use, so to the extent your use of decrypted files falls within that protection, you're OK.

I'll add that from a purely ethical standpoint, I see no problem with doing this. I've already paid for the music, and I'm simply playing it on a different machine. Nothing I'm doing harms anyone else (unless perhaps you assume I otherwise would have gone out and bought the CD for ripping purposes, which is almost never the case given that I've purchased it from iTunes).

Brian Curtis
2005-10-03, 19:14
On Oct 3, 2005, at 6:42 PM, Mike Anderson wrote:


>>> It is NOT a criminal action to purchase iTunes songs and strip the
>>>
>> DRM
>>
>>> encryption, as long as you don't redistribute the music yourself.
>>>
>>
>> IANAL, but are you sure about that? The DMCA has a lot of verbiage
>> about breaking the DRMs, etc.
>>

iTunes will happily strip the DRM for you when you burn to disk. You
can't compress back using a lossy compression scheme without some
quality degradation, of course, but you do have the song with no DRM.

cmturner2
2005-10-03, 19:38
I disagree with several of the logical/common sense and "moral" reasoning points raised, but I don't particularly care to get into that here (feel free to PM me if you want).

However I am also interested in hearing more answers to the originally raised question.

FWIW eMusic has served me well for a variety of music genres, but I hope to hear of other good resources similar to them.

robertwallace
2005-10-03, 21:29
Amazon.com offers free mp3s of hundreds of artists - some quite popular,
some trying to get a break:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/468646/ref=m_mh_mn_dd/103-5188174-5077459

Or, if this link doesn't work, go to Music and look for "Free
Downloads" in the linkbar.

Robert

ob_kook wrote:

>One way to get around the copywright question is to go with music that
>has the blessing of the owners. There is a good site for this called
>"Live Music Archive"
>(http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php), which has live
>shows posted by those who taped them either from the audience or
>sometimes patching into the soundboard.
>
>Of course, you are limited to the bands that allow this which means you
>don't get many mainstream bands, but on the other hand, it is a
>fantastic way to explore new music and expand your own musical
>horizon.
>
>The majority of the shows are lossless (SHN) format and are pretty big,
>but there are also a lot of VBR-MP3 shows too.
>
>Now, to end with an off-topic remark, I highly recommend checking out
>The Mermen.
>
>
>
>

dae3dae3
2005-10-04, 11:34
I won't make any comments on legality or morality but I check out a ton of CD's from the library.

Sometimes, weeks later I find FLAC's of the CD's on my computers hard drive. Weird how that happens. ;-)

Phil Karn
2005-10-20, 01:40
max.spicer wrote:
> I've got a list of tracks that I'd like to own, but don't necessarily
> like the artists enough to go out and by the relevant albums (yet).

I can't help you if you've got a list of specific tracks by artists on
RIAA labels. But if you're looking for a good way to obtain MP3, FLAC
and other digital music files without DRM, and with very liberal copying
and usage rules, check out Magnatune (www.magnatune.com).

They're *not* a music service like iTunes or emusic. They're an
independent record label, that happens to do business very differently
than most.

You will *not* find well-known acts on Magnatune, as they can only sign
new artists that haven't already signed away their souls to a regular label.

Sure, a lot of what Magnatune has doesn't really interest me, but that's
just as true (if not more so) for the big, evil RIAA labels. But you
probably will find *something* you like.

Phil