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Dave D
2005-09-02, 18:57
Here's something strange which I've noticed on and off for weeks now. Wondering who else might have noticed it too:

Sometimes, when playing streams from RadioIO, I hear little crackles or pops or static from the left channel. Some observations:

-- I have heard it on RadioIO Acoustic and Eclectic. It may occur on other RadioIO streams, but I listen to Acoustic the most.

-- I have never heard it on Shoutcast (I listen to Skyfm Jazz, Folk Alley, Radio Paradise)

-- Don't know about Live365 (login problems there; I have to go read the forums about that--just been too busy.)

-- I have heard it using my Squeezebox2, using SlimServer versions from 6.0.2 to the most recent 6.2 beta, and with several firmware versions. (I don't think this is a hardware issue.) This is through my amplifier and speakers.

-- I have heard it using SoftSqueeze with headphones (this is where I noticed it first and thought it was a loose connection or maybe interference from my computer).

-- I have heard it using SqueezeNetwork (just verified that tonight).

-- It has occurred on both WinXP boxes I use.

-- I have never heard it in the right channel.

-- It's is seemingly random in occurence, not during any particular type of music or listening level. It's most noticable during soft passages, of course, but I've heard it other times as well.

-- I have not listened to RadioIO with other software.

So am I going nuts or have others heard this? I did a search in the forums but didn't find anything.

Thanks, Dave

dean
2005-09-02, 21:51
Given that you've heard it in SoftSqueeze and on the hardware player,
I suspect it's a problem in the original RadioIO data. I'd drop
their customer support folks a note.

On Sep 2, 2005, at 6:57 PM, Dave D wrote:

>
> Here's something strange which I've noticed on and off for weeks now.
> Wondering who else might have noticed it too:
>
> Sometimes, when playing streams from RadioIO, I hear little
> crackles or
> pops or static from the left channel. Some observations:
>
> -- I have heard it on RadioIO Acoustic and Eclectic. It may occur on
> other RadioIO streams, but I listen to Acoustic the most.
>
> -- I have never heard it on Shoutcast (I listen to Skyfm Jazz, Folk
> Alley, Radio Paradise)
>
> -- Don't know about Live365 (login problems there; I have to go read
> the forums about that--just been too busy.)
>
> -- I have heard it using my Squeezebox2, using SlimServer versions
> from
> 6.0.2 to the most recent 6.2 beta, and with several firmware versions.
> (I don't think this is a hardware issue.) This is through my amplifier
> and speakers.
>
> -- I have heard it using SoftSqueeze with headphones (this is where I
> noticed it first and thought it was a loose connection or maybe
> interference from my computer).
>
> -- I have heard it using SqueezeNetwork (just verified that tonight).
>
> -- It has occurred on both WinXP boxes I use.
>
> -- I have never heard it in the right channel.
>
> -- It's is seemingly random in occurence, not during any particular
> type of music or listening level. It's most noticable during soft
> passages, of course, but I've heard it other times as well.
>
> -- I have not listened to RadioIO with other software.
>
> So am I going nuts or have others heard this? I did a search in the
> forums but didn't find anything.
>
> Thanks, Dave
>
>
> --
> Dave D
>

Dave D
2005-09-03, 05:25
Given that you've heard it in SoftSqueeze and on the hardware player, I suspect it's a problem in the original RadioIO data. I'd drop their customer support folks a note.

That's exactly what I will be doing, but it would be nice to say that I've found other people who have noticed this. And it would be nice to be able to find someone who's noticed it listening with non-SD harware and/or software.

Aaron Zinck
2005-09-06, 08:12
> dean Wrote:
> > Given that you've heard it in SoftSqueeze and on the hardware player, I
> > suspect it's a problem in the original RadioIO data. I'd drop their
> > customer support folks a note.
>
> That's exactly what I will be doing, but it would be nice to say that
> I've found other people who have noticed this. And it would be nice to
> be able to find someone who's noticed it listening with non-SD harware
> and/or software.
>
>
> --
> Dave D


I listen to RadioIO Acoustic and I've noticed it, too.

Aaron Zinck
2005-09-06, 10:58
"Aaron Zinck" <azinck3 (AT) ufl (DOT) edu> wrote in message
news:dfkbk5$qlk$1 (AT) sea (DOT) gmane.org...
>
> > dean Wrote:
> > > Given that you've heard it in SoftSqueeze and on the hardware player,
I
> > > suspect it's a problem in the original RadioIO data. I'd drop their
> > > customer support folks a note.
> >
> > That's exactly what I will be doing, but it would be nice to say that
> > I've found other people who have noticed this. And it would be nice to
> > be able to find someone who's noticed it listening with non-SD harware
> > and/or software.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave D
>
>
> I listen to RadioIO Acoustic and I've noticed it, too.

I should clarify that I only listen via my SB1--haven't tried listening any
other way. The problem didn't used to exist but has been problematic
recently.

Dave D
2005-09-06, 20:26
> I listen to RadioIO Acoustic and I've noticed it, too.

Aaron, thank you for your reply. I thought I was the only one who could hear this, and it has been driving me crazy. I've all but stopped listening to RadioIO because of it, and switched over to Radio Paradise.

Now here's the bad part, I think. I can play RadioIO Acoustic via Windows Media Player, and I don't hear _any_ left-channel noise at all. I've been listening very carefully through the same speakers: first with Windows Media Player, then with Softsqueeze, back and forth. I hear the noise with Softsqueeze, but not Windows Media.

This could be a Slimserver problem. It seems very unlikely (why only RadioIO?), but it's the only conclusion I can make, given the observations.

I would like to get more feedback from others before opening a bug. The bug report will not do any good if this is not seen as reproducible. So far, only you and I have reported it.

Other poeple reading this thread: will you please do a simple listening test? Listen to a few songs on RadioIO Acoustic or Eclectic with SB1, SB2 or Softsqueeze, and tell us if you hear any noise in the left channel. Then listen to the same station with some player other than Slimserver and report that as well.

Thank you very much!

lostboy
2005-09-07, 00:58
I can hear the noise both using my squeezebox and via win-amp. I had to make sure that I was listening to the 128kbps stream on winamp. The noise is not apparent on the 32 kbps low quality, free stream.

Chris

Dave D
2005-09-07, 04:39
I can hear the noise both using my squeezebox and via win-amp. I had to make sure that I was listening to the 128kbps stream on winamp. The noise is not apparent on the 32 kbps low quality, free stream. Chris


Well, that might explain why I don't hear any noise with Windows Media player. I don't have an account with RadioIO, so can only listen to free (32k) streams. The SB2 comes with access to some RadioIO premium content (128k). The data rate differences didn't even occur to me, but now that you mention it, the sound _was_ better through SoftSqueeze. This is an excellent data point, Chris. Thank you for your report.

So now I'm back to thinking it's a RadioIO problem, which is good: I could not figure how this could be a Slimserver issue only with RadioIO streams.

Other folks: keep the reports coming in and I'll compile the list and send it over to RadioIO for them to look into. With more reports of audible noise, we'll have a better chance of getting ti fixed. Either way, I'll send a report off by the end of this week.

Thanks!

lostboy
2005-09-07, 07:02
I used urlsnooper (recommended in a previous thread) on my slimserver to find where to point winamp for the test.

Chris

Aaron Zinck
2005-09-07, 07:50
Wow, I'm surprised they don't have some sort of more secure lock on their
high-quality stream. I've only ever listened to the free 32k stream on my
computer--I just fired the free stream up a few minutes ago and have yet to
hear any static. Seems like it probably is a problem with their
high-quality stream. You'd think they'd want to get their high-quality
stream all fixed up for their paying customers.

>
> I used urlsnooper (recommended in a previous thread) on my slimserver to
> find where to point winamp for the test.
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> lostboy

Dave D
2005-09-07, 09:59
I used urlsnooper (recommended in a previous thread) on my slimserver to find where to point winamp for the test.

So, Chris, you have confirmed that the 128k RadioIO stream used by Slimserver exhibits the noise in the left channel. I wonder if the other 128k streams, i.e. to paying customers, also have the noise or if it's only on the stream Slimserver has access to?

Anyone have a RadioIO membership who can check this out?

Joe Hartley
2005-09-07, 10:52
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:59:44 -0700
Dave D <Dave.D.1v00a1 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> lostboy Wrote:
> > I used urlsnooper (recommended in a previous thread) on my slimserver to
> > find where to point winamp for the test.
>
> So, Chris, you have confirmed that the 128k RadioIO stream used by
> Slimserver exhibits the noise in the left channel. I wonder if the
> other 128k streams, i.e. to paying customers, also have the noise or if
> it's only on the stream Slimserver has access to?
>
> Anyone have a RadioIO membership who can check this out?

I do - I like their eclectic channel so much I paid for the subscription
even though I get it for free.

I've never heard any problems with it, but I've never listened all
that closely, either. But we have it on almost all the time, and I'd
think I'd have noticed by now.

Has this been heard on all their streams?

--
================================================== ====================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh (AT) brainiac (DOT) com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa

stevek1006
2005-09-07, 11:35
discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com wrote:
> So, Chris, you have confirmed that the 128k RadioIO stream used by
> Slimserver exhibits the noise in the left channel. I wonder if the
> other 128k streams, i.e. to paying customers, also have the
> noise or if
> it's only on the stream Slimserver has access to?
>
> Anyone have a RadioIO membership who can check this out?
>

I am not hearing static on either my squeezebox or the 128k RadioIO stream
using Windows Media player. I am currently using SlimServer Version: 6.2b1
- 4166 - Windows XP - EN - cp1252. I think that was the daily from around
Aug. 9.

-Steve

Aaron Zinck
2005-09-07, 12:06
> I am not hearing static on either my squeezebox or the 128k RadioIO stream
> using Windows Media player.

When you use Windows Media player are you using their pay stream or the
free-but-hidden 128k stream provided to SlimDevices customers? (I don't know
if we've established if the free 128k stream for Slim customers is in fact
the same as the subscription-only 128k stream). Also, which RadioIO channel
do you listen to?

Dave D
2005-09-07, 12:59
Has this been heard on all their streams?

I've heard it on Acoustic (mainly, since I listen to that a lot) and verified that I hear it on Eclectic as well. I have not checked other streams.

The noise may pop up at any time. Sometimes it's not present. I usually don't have to wait long to hear it, though.

I noticed it first using headphones. The pops/clicks/static (whatever) are only in the left channel so the effect is more apparent in headphones (I think).

stevek1006
2005-09-07, 14:49
discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com wrote:
> Joe Hartley Wrote:
>> Has this been heard on all their streams?
>
> I've heard it on Acoustic (mainly, since I listen to that a lot) and
> verified that I hear it on Eclectic as well. I have not checked
> other streams.
>
> The noise may pop up at any time. Sometimes it's not present. I
> usually don't have to wait long to hear it, though.
>
> I noticed it first using headphones. The pops/clicks/static
> (whatever) are only in the left channel so the effect is more
> apparent in headphones (I think).

Well, I have to admit that I only listened for 30 minutes or so (to the
acoustic channel), but as I mentioned earlier, I heard no static in that
time. If I get a chance to listen longer through headphones, I will do so,
but probably not today.

-Steve

stevek1006
2005-09-07, 14:49
discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com wrote:
>> I am not hearing static on either my squeezebox or the 128k RadioIO
>> stream using Windows Media player.
>
> When you use Windows Media player are you using their pay stream or
> the free-but-hidden 128k stream provided to SlimDevices customers? (I
> don't know if we've established if the free 128k stream for Slim
> customers is in fact the same as the subscription-only 128k stream).
> Also, which RadioIO channel do you listen to?

Yes, I am using the subscription 128k feed.

Dave D
2005-09-07, 16:55
Well, I have to admit that I only listened for 30 minutes or so (to the acoustic channel), but as I mentioned earlier, I heard no static in that time. If I get a chance to listen longer through headphones, I will do so, but probably not today.

Steve, you should definitely notice the noise within 30 minutes if it was present. Over the course of 20 minutes tonight, I heard it for a second or two distinctly, four times. Then "Rickie Lee Jones - Company" started playing and the noise was _very_ audible throughout. "Judith Edelman - No One to Love" is on now and the noise has been audible throughout again. I had a hard time hearing noise on the more lively pieces, like one from Blue Mountain with fiddle and banjo. Listen to a quiet vocal and you'd think it was coming from an LP if the noise wasn't isolated to the left side. Oh, and gee, I can hear the noise quite well when Zoe Montana is speaking.

So, I'm going to venture that perhaps the noise is not present on all 128kbps streams.

As I finish this post, "Richard Thompson - Old Thames Side" is on now and it's very noisy. I have it on SB2 and Softsqueeze as I write this and there's just no missing it.

Dave D
2005-09-08, 18:13
Quick bump to ask once more if anyone else is noticing the pops in the left channel of the RadioIO streams. Easy to hear on Acoustic.

I'm going to send an email off to RadioIO tomorrow and would like to provide feedback from more than just a couple people.

One observation today: the pops seem to come at or almost immediately after an increase in sound level. For example, I will hear nothing in between Zoe Montana's words. I will hear the popping only when she is talking. Same goes for the quiet songs. I'm wondering if I can capture this on a scope and what I would trigger on? The pops are usually very low level. [Anyone have ideas about this?]

One thing we're still trying to confirm: is this noise audible only on the 128k streams going to Slimserver, i.e. are the 128k streams going to paid subscribers any different? We seem to have some evidence that the paid subscriber streams are clean.

I think we've already concluded that the noise is not audible on the 32k (free) stream.

Frankly, I'm surprised I don't hear more complaints about this noise. My hearing is not all that great but the popping is very annoying to me, especially through headphones (no crossfeeding).

Dave D
2005-09-08, 19:50
I'm wondering if I can capture this on a scope and what I would trigger on? The pops are usually very low level.

I tried for about an hour tonight to just _see_ the pops (nevermind triggering on one). No luck. I think they are very low level. Anything high enough to be recognizable on top of an audio signal would probably be a very loud pop.

stevek1006
2005-09-09, 05:16
Dave wrote:
> Quick bump to ask once more if anyone else is noticing the pops in the
> left channel of the RadioIO streams. Easy to hear on Acoustic.
>
Dave,

Sorry it took so long to get to this. I just sat down and listened to the
Subscriber Acoustic stream through headphones using Windows Media Player. I
do hear a very slight static. I do not hear anything that I would describe
as pops though. Just a slight static in the left channel. I really don't
notice it through the speakers though -- Perhaps it is my 55 year old ears.
Anyway, it is diffently there As you noted, it is only when there is some
signal. Also, it does seem to come and go.

-Steve

Dave D
2005-09-09, 19:09
Thank you for doing the listening test, Steve. You have confirmed the presence and nature of the noise which Aaron and I hear. Your observation is key: it shows that the original RadioIO stream has the problem.

I just finished sending an email to RadioIO Customer Care, describing the problem and our observations. We'll see what happens.

I have done searches on Google to see if others have noticed the noise. I found nothing other than this forum's thread. The responses here on the forum affirming the presence of the noise are very few.

This is disturbing. The left channel static is SO noticable to me that I can no longer listen to RadioIO when using headphones. I don't understand why there are not more complaints. I do not have out-of-the ordinary auditory perception. On the contrary, my hearing is probably not as good as it used to be, given my 40 years. I would fully expect to see reports of this coming from the regular posters in the audiophiles forum.

I wonder: is it possible that something in Slim Devices _software_ (remember that I also hear the noise using SoftSqueeze) is causing the left-channel noise to be enhanced?

MarkR47
2005-11-14, 16:29
Dave,

Did you ever get a response from RadioIO ?

I've had my SB2 for a couple of weeks and rather liked the RadioIO Acoustic and Jazz channels whilst listening from another room, but I can't listen in the same room as the system as the 'static' is too noticable. I've heard it on every RadioIO channel I've tried.

Dave D
2005-11-15, 04:46
Dave,

Did you ever get a response from RadioIO ?

I've had my SB2 for a couple of weeks and rather liked the RadioIO Acoustic and Jazz channels whilst listening from another room, but I can't listen in the same room as the system as the 'static' is too noticable. I've heard it on every RadioIO channel I've tried.

I set them a very complete description of the problem on September 9th. I received an immediate, brief answer, and have been ignored since. You need to report the problem to customercare@radioio.com, because they are not going to do _anything_ about it because apparently I have golden ears and no one else has reported anything. This was the response I got:


No, it has not been reported in the past. I will forward to our sound engineer.

Don
radioioCustomerCare


- Dave

Joe Hartley
2005-11-15, 07:52
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:46:06 -0800
Dave D <Dave.D.1yjdxb (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> I set them a very complete description of the problem on September 9th.
> I received an immediate, brief answer, and have been ignored since.
> You need to report the problem to customercare (AT) radioio (DOT) com, because
> they are not going to do _anything_ about it because apparently I have
> golden ears and no one else has reported anything. This was the
> response I got:

For what it's worth, I'm an avid RadioIO Eclectic listener, and have
never been able to reproduce this problem on any of their streams.

I'm using v5.4 of the SlimServer on a RedHat 9 server.

--
================================================== ====================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh (AT) brainiac (DOT) com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa

rme
2005-11-15, 16:33
FWIW I have definately been hearing the static over the past week or so and thought it was my system. It is periodically there when I listen to the acoustic channel.

This is not your imagination as independently I had concerns on this for a while now.

Aaron Zinck
2005-11-16, 08:57
I sent another complaint to RadioIO yesterday. Hopefully they'll appreciate
that this is a real problem.