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JayNYC
2005-08-22, 21:04
What is the general consensus on the best way to back up our 250GB+ and growing FLAC collections?

REV drive and a few REV disks stored at a friends house in event of fire or external hard drive etc..

Mark.Bennett
2005-08-23, 00:25
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:04 -0700, JayNYC wrote:
> What is the general consensus on the best way to back up our 250GB+ and
> growing FLAC collections?
>
> REV drive and a few REV disks stored at a friends house in event of
> fire or external hard drive etc..

A REV drive only appears to hold 35GB, so for 250GB you'll need 6 disks,
and it looks like the list price for this is nearly $600.

A much better idea (IMHO) is an external USB attached hard disk.
You can probably pick up a 250GB (or bigger) disk, and put it in
a USB case for about $150. You can still disconnect the drive
and take it somewhere else for safety if you want to and you
don't have to faff around with multiple disks etc.

--
"The biggest problem encountered while trying to design a system that
was completely foolproof, was, that people tended to underestimate the
ingenuity of complete fools." (Douglas Adams)

pfarrell
2005-08-23, 00:34
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:04 -0700, JayNYC wrote:
> What is the general consensus on the best way to back up our 250GB+ and
> growing FLAC collections?

Depends on how paranoid you are. I just keep the original CDs and will
re-rip if I have to.

The cheapest practical approach is probably to get another 300GB disk
and copy all the files over to it. It will take a long time, many hours,
maybe a couple of days, depending.on lots of things.

Using something like DVDs is impractical, it would take 100 or more of
them. Whether you want external, internal, etc. is more of a personal
decision.

Of course, you should do backups and then take the backup media offsite,
even if you just take them to work and put them in a drawer.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

radish
2005-08-23, 07:17
In terms of absoloute recovery, I still have all the original CDs. To guard against having to rip them all, I have the entire filesystem duplicated on two seperate machines, manually synced whenever I make a change (no autosync to guard against "oops" moments!).

To guard against fire - insurance.

bishopdonmiguel
2005-08-23, 08:22
If you are running Windows, I'd recommend buying another hard drive of same controller type and same or greater size. Also get a removable disc tray (these cost about $20) and Norton Ghost 2003. Create a bootable Ghost floppy or CD-R, then as often as you like, power-down, insert your backup disc, power up with the Ghost disc, clone the drive, power-down, remove backup disc and store in secure location, remove the Ghost disc, power-up. For me, using 80GB UATA-100 drives, a 60GB data backup takes about 25 minutes. Easy as cake.

JulianL
2005-08-23, 09:03
I respectfully disagree with Pat. I am backing up to DVD+R, although I admit that this is a hundred times more convenient if done at the same time as ripping your collection in the first place. I might make a different decision if I already had all the rips done.

I'm finding that one DVD+R is holding anywhere between 12 and 16 CDs in FLAC format which, at half an hour per CD to rip, fix up tags, download cover art, etc is about the limit to what my patience will allow me to rip in a day. This means however that I have found a system that works perfectly for me. I rip about 15 CDs during a day and then just before I go to bed I set a DVD backup going to create the next DVD in my backup set and do a read-back verification on the media. I'm also keeping a simple text document that records which CDs are archived onto each DVD so that if I have a localised corruption then I know which DVD to pull out to recover a file or directory.

Since the backup happens while I sleep and is interleaved with my ripping activities it effectively takes me no time at all. I only have about 700 CDs in my collection and I'm estimating about 50 DVDs but even at UK prices this is only costing me about $17 in blanks (and they're not bargain basement blanks, they're top rated media) and you can get very nice 100 CD/DVD storage wallets to hold them all in one neat case that fits on a bookshelf.

Once I've caught up and ripped/archived my entire collection then as I buy new stuff I'll rip it and add the newly ripped CDs to my text file under the category "un-archived". Once my list of un-archived CDs gets to 16 (or whatever fills a blank DVD) then I'll burn them onto a new DVD and reset my un-archived list to empty.

As with others, I always have my original CDs as the ultimate backup (and legal proof of ownership).

- Julian

Howard Darwen
2005-08-23, 11:56
Personally, I use an extra external hard disc. It's more expensive, but it's
a little quicker/easier, and it means that any tweeks made to the tags as I
go along are also backed up (I'm forever fixing small mistakes in stuff I
thought was correct first time round).

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com]On Behalf Of JayNYC
Sent: 23 August 2005 05:05
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Subject: [slim] Backup: REV drive or external HD?



What is the general consensus on the best way to back up our 250GB+ and
growing FLAC collections?

REV drive and a few REV disks stored at a friends house in event of
fire or external hard drive etc..


--
JayNYC

pfarrell
2005-08-23, 13:11
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:03 -0700, JulianL wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with Pat. I am backing up to DVD+R,

No problem, I was just trying to say that there is no consensus.
For me, using 50 to 70 DVDs is just not all that attractive.
Now that I've added a couple of DVD burners to my systems,
it is a lot easier to consider.

One other poster said that they have lots of tweaks of tags and meta
data, which is something that really needs to be properly backed up.
Re-ripping is painful to imagine, altho it isn't physically hard.
Remembering what was wrong with the FreeDB/cddb data, and what you fixed
is much worse.

Backing up the slimserver database, which should have all the critical
meta data is separate, and should be lots easier, than backing
up the flac files.

The important thing is to think about how important backups are to you,
and decide what you want to backup, and then do it.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

JulianL
2005-08-23, 13:40
I agree with the last couple of posts, tweaking the inevitable tag errors is the big problem (what, you don't get your tags right first time, every time? Oops, nor do I!). The way I incorporate this into my DVD backup scheme is that whenever I discover a tagging error I fix it on my hard drive and then document the fix in the text file where I have the catalogue of which CDs are stored on which backup DVD, e.g. "Mr Lucky [ Genre set to Blues ]". If I get to about 5 fixes up on a DVD then I'll probably recut the DVD.

Ultimately I definitely agree with Pat, "there is no consensus". All I would say is that, if you're starting out your Slim Devices adventures from scratch and are just starting to rip your collection, and you have a DVD writer on your system, then I suggest my system as a cheapskate's solution to the backup problem.

- Julian

BBobley
2005-08-23, 14:50
I use this very nice piece of Windows software called Second Copy. http://www.secondcopy.com/ Basically, you give it a source folder and a destination folder. The destination can be on another hard disk or even another computer on your LAN. Then you just tell it to keep the two in sync. So I simply put additional music files in my Slimserver music folder hierarchy. Then, silently, at night, Second Copy copies over just the new or changed files. Works great. Never gets in the way. Yeah, I suppose I could have written a perl script to do something similar, but Second Copy is dirt cheap and works really well.

I am using it to backup my music files as well as pictures and other stuff from machine to machine within my home.

radish
2005-08-23, 15:51
I use this very nice piece of Windows software called Second Copy. http://www.secondcopy.com/ Basically, you give it a source folder and a destination folder. The destination can be on another hard disk or even another computer on your LAN. Then you just tell it to keep the two in sync. So I simply put additional music files in my Slimserver music folder hierarchy. Then, silently, at night, Second Copy copies over just the new or changed files. Works great. Never gets in the way. Yeah, I suppose I could have written a perl script to do something similar, but Second Copy is dirt cheap and works really well.

Wow! They charge $30 for a GUI on top of robocopy? I'm in the wrong business. The "script" I use to do the same thing is:

robocopy /MIR <source> <dest>

Robin Bowes
2005-08-23, 16:18
radish said the following on 23/08/2005 23:51:
> BBobley Wrote:
>
>>I use this very nice piece of Windows software called Second Copy.
>>http://www.secondcopy.com/ Basically, you give it a source folder and
>>a destination folder. The destination can be on another hard disk or
>>even another computer on your LAN. Then you just tell it to keep the
>>two in sync. So I simply put additional music files in my Slimserver
>>music folder hierarchy. Then, silently, at night, Second Copy copies
>>over just the new or changed files. Works great. Never gets in the
>>way. Yeah, I suppose I could have written a perl script to do
>>something similar, but Second Copy is dirt cheap and works really well.
>
>
> Wow! They charge $30 for a GUI on top of robocopy? I'm in the wrong
> business.

http://www.gotdotnet.com/workspaces/workspace.aspx?id=108f89b9-be0b-4ec4-9736-3a43d39f0146

R.

ChrisB
2005-08-24, 02:01
I was going to post the same thing! Robocopy is all you need, and it's
free (you might have to download one of MS's toolkits to get it).

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of radish
Sent: 23 August 2005 23:51
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Subject: [slim] Re: Backup: REV drive or external HD?


BBobley Wrote:
> I use this very nice piece of Windows software called Second Copy.
> http://www.secondcopy.com/ Basically, you give it a source folder and
> a destination folder. The destination can be on another hard disk or
> even another computer on your LAN. Then you just tell it to keep the
> two in sync. So I simply put additional music files in my Slimserver
> music folder hierarchy. Then, silently, at night, Second Copy copies
> over just the new or changed files. Works great. Never gets in the
> way. Yeah, I suppose I could have written a perl script to do
> something similar, but Second Copy is dirt cheap and works really
well.

Wow! They charge $30 for a GUI on top of robocopy? I'm in the wrong
business. The "script" I use to do the same thing is:

robocopy /MIR <source> <dest>


--
radish

stuorguk
2005-08-24, 04:10
I use a RAID1 setup on Linux. Just plug in a second HardDisk with a partition of equal size of your audio drive, and mount the pair of them as Raid1. Everything is then mirrored, and if one drive fails, I get an e-mail to tell me so. Surprisingly easy to set up too.

Doesn't cover you from fire, theft or accidental deletion, but it lowers the risk of having to re-rip everything again, and if one drive does fail, it buys you a bit of time to sort it out without any downtime.

Stuart.

BBobley
2005-09-12, 14:17
Wow! They charge $30 for a GUI on top of robocopy? I'm in the wrong business. The "script" I use to do the same thing is:

robocopy /MIR <source> <dest>

Yes, robocopy is a nice utility. Experienced computer users should have no trouble using it. But if you are a computer novice, then figuring out the proper robocopy switches and then scheduling it to run automatically might be a bit daunting. That's why I recommended Second Copy. It is extremely user-friendly, has a wizard to set up the type of copy you want, good logging, etc. I also find it helpful because you can set up numerous jobs for different machines around your house and monitor/log them from one application.

BBobley
2005-09-12, 14:19
http://www.gotdotnet.com/workspaces/workspace.aspx?id=108f89b9-be0b-4ec4-9736-3a43d39f0146

R.

Thanks. I've used the robocopy program but never tried this GUI wrapper. I'll check it out.

abdomen
2005-09-12, 18:31
Yes, robocopy is a nice utility. Experienced computer users should have no trouble using it. But if you are a computer novice, then figuring out the proper robocopy switches and then scheduling it to run automatically might be a bit daunting. That's why I recommended Second Copy. It is extremely user-friendly, has a wizard to set up the type of copy you want, good logging, etc. I also find it helpful because you can set up numerous jobs for different machines around your house and monitor/log them from one application.

Another option for Windows users is the new Microsoft download called SyncToy. It is geared toward syncing large collections of files such as music or photos, and I must say it is working brilliantly for me.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/prophoto/synctoy.mspx

JJZolx
2005-09-12, 19:18
I use robocopy at home and at work a _lot_ for backups, but keep in mind that mirroring is not the same as backing up. Say you screw up and delete an artist's directory containing 15 albums. Oops. If you don't realize this has happened before you mirror the music folder, the mirroring operation will also remove the folders from your so-called backup. The way I get guard against this is to keep rotating backup directories and to keep weekly backups for several weeks, similar to the way you'd rotate tapes in a proper grandfather/father/son backup scheme. But you need sufficient disk space to keep all of the full backups, so this isn't practical for backing up a music library unless you plan on spending a lot on hard drives.

I use DVD-R to backup, but may change to DVD-RW. I'm not certain of the archival quality of DVD-R(W), so I'll test some DVDs in six, nine months, a year, and see if any data becomes unreadable.

It's inexpensive and it's easy. Copy 12-16 flac-encoded CDs to a DVD-R, mark it with a number, then log the albums in a text file or spreadsheet. A hundred CDs in a spindle will hold about 1500 albums. Restoring will take a lot longer than from hard disks, but I don't expect that should happen too often (actually, my primary storage is on a RAID 5 array, so I expect to do a full restore from backup only very rarely).

The one thing I didn't anticipate with this method, though, is retagging flac files. SlimServer is a constantly shifting target with respect to file tagging (which is both good and bad - it's tough to keep up with how SlimServer uses tags, but it's good that SlimServer is evolving), so I'm running large batch operations on my entire library to add and modify tags. But luckily the encoded music doesn't change, so if I restore from backup then I can run the same batch operations on the restored files to get current tags.

stinkingpig
2005-09-12, 20:27
JJZolx wrote:

>I use robocopy at home and at work a _lot_ for backups, but keep in mind
>that mirroring is not the same as backing up. Say you screw up and
>delete an artist's directory containing 15 albums. Oops. If you don't
>realize this has happened before you mirror the music folder, the
>mirroring operation will also remove the folders from your so-called
>backup. The way I get guard against this is to keep rotating backup
>directories and to keep weekly backups for several weeks, similar to
>the way you'd rotate tapes in a proper grandfather/father/son backup
>scheme. But you need sufficient disk space to keep all of the full
>backups, so this isn't practical for backing up a music library unless
>you plan on spending a lot on hard drives.
>
>

It is if you use a Unix server:
http://www.monkeynoodle.org/comp/tools/backups.

>I use DVD-R to backup, but may change to DVD-RW. I'm not certain of
>the archival quality of DVD-R(W), so I'll test some DVDs in six, nine
>months, a year, and see if any data becomes unreadable.
>
>It's inexpensive and it's easy. Copy 12-16 flac-encoded CDs to a
>DVD-R, mark it with a number, then log the albums in a text file or
>spreadsheet. A hundred CDs in a spindle will hold about 1500 albums.
>Restoring will take a lot longer than from hard disks, but I don't
>expect that should happen too often (actually, my primary storage is on
>a RAID 5 array, so I expect to do a full restore from backup only very
>rarely).
>
>
>

I've done 1 backup to removable media (CDR, but I use MP3 and had the
same album to disc ratio). It was tedious and sucky, and that's with a
script doing everything but changing discs.

>The one thing I didn't anticipate with this method, though, is
>retagging flac files. SlimServer is a constantly shifting target with
>respect to file tagging (which is both good and bad - it's tough to
>keep up with how SlimServer uses tags, but it's good that SlimServer is
>evolving), so I'm running large batch operations on my entire library to
>add and modify tags. But luckily the encoded music doesn't change, so
>if I restore from backup then I can run the same batch operations on
>the restored files to get current tags.
>
>
>

burning new discs to change tags sounds unpleasant.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org : It's a Scientific Venture!
"I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin,
so across the Western ocean I must wander." -- All for Me Grog, traditional

MrC
2005-09-12, 21:35
Another option for Windows users is the new Microsoft download called SyncToy. It is geared toward syncing large collections of files such as music or photos, and I must say it is working brilliantly for me.

Thanks for the pointer. SyncTool will actually work brilliantly for my mother as well for completely different needs! Not a bad tool. Now if Microsoft would just learn to stop trying to force long pathnames into very small, unresizable dialog boxes. What a bunch of doofs!

abdomen
2005-09-13, 06:23
Thanks for the pointer. SyncTool will actually work brilliantly for my mother as well for completely different needs! Not a bad tool.

Most welcome!