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JJZolx
2005-07-17, 00:15
Recalling the thread below regarding library organization, sorting and tagging, tonight I tried tagging a FLAC album with TSOP tags using <lastname> <firstname>. Then I did a wipe/rescan and it made no difference in the artist sort order.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=14967

Is this supposed to work with FLAC files or is the TSOP tag only recognized by SlimServer in MP3 files?

Jason Voegele
2005-07-17, 06:04
On Sunday 17 July 2005 3:15, JJZolx wrote:
> Recalling the thread below regarding library organization, sorting and
> tagging, tonight I tried tagging a FLAC album with TSOP tags using
> <lastname> <firstname>.
> [snip]
> Is this supposed to work with FLAC files or is the TSOP tag only
> recognized by SlimServer in MP3 files?

You can use the ARTISTSORT tag for FLAC files. It serves the same purpose as
the TSOP ID3 tag, but works for FLAC and has a meaningful name.

--
Jason Voegele
The number of arguments is unimportant unless some of them are correct.
-- Ralph Hartley

JJZolx
2005-07-17, 10:16
You can use the ARTISTSORT tag for FLAC files. It serves the same purpose as
the TSOP ID3 tag, but works for FLAC and has a meaningful name.

Thanks, Jason. The ARISTSORT tag does indeed work. I take it this tag is SlimServer specific? I can't find anything mentioned about it elsewhere.

JulianL
2005-08-01, 03:16
Wow. Thank goodness for search. This was exactly my question. I have a few follow-ups though:

1) This thread was left hanging. JJZolx asked if the ARTISTSORT is SlimServer specific. Is it?

2) I hope this one is rhetorical, but just so I make sure I've understood correctly.... I assume that if a track doesn't have the ARTISTSORT (AS) tag set then the Artist tag is used to sort but, if the AS tag is set, then its value is used in place of the Artist tag for sorting. Is this correct? Does this sort order affect all browsing functions, e.g. if I have tracks from an album with Artist tags "David Bowie" and with AS tags "Bowie, David" then all my David Bowie stuff will show up under "B" when I do browse by artist but, when I play something, the Now Playing info will show as "David Bowie". Is all this correct?

3) Does capitalisation matter in tags, i.e. does it have to be all capitals?

On a related note, how do tags work in FLAC/Slimserver? Do FLAC files allow for the embedding of ID3 tags or is there some seperate tag format for FLAC? If both alternatives are possible then which is SlimServer using? Is ARTISTSORT a FLAC tag or an embedded ID3 tag?

- Julian

radish
2005-08-01, 07:19
FLAC files use vorbis tags. You can embed ID3 (though I'm not sure why you'd want to) and some players will recognize them, but others will barf on them.

JJZolx
2005-08-01, 08:32
Wow. Thank goodness for search. This was exactly my question. I have a few follow-ups though:

1) This thread was left hanging. JJZolx asked if the ARTISTSORT is SlimServer specific. Is it?

2) I hope this one is rhetorical, but just so I make sure I've understood correctly.... I assume that if a track doesn't have the ARTISTSORT (AS) tag set then the Artist tag is used to sort but, if the AS tag is set, then its value is used in place of the Artist tag for sorting. Is this correct? Does this sort order affect all browsing functions, e.g. if I have tracks from an album with Artist tags "David Bowie" and with AS tags "Bowie, David" then all my David Bowie stuff will show up under "B" when I do browse by artist but, when I play something, the Now Playing info will show as "David Bowie". Is all this correct?

3) Does capitalisation matter in tags, i.e. does it have to be all capitals?

On a related note, how do tags work in FLAC/Slimserver? Do FLAC files allow for the embedding of ID3 tags or is there some seperate tag format for FLAC? If both alternatives are possible then which is SlimServer using? Is ARTISTSORT a FLAC tag or an embedded ID3 tag?

2) Yes, that's how it works. ALBUMSORT works similarly. I've played with ALBUMSORT, entering [Year] [AlbumName] to get albums to sort chronologically when browsing artists. This works great, but then browsing albums or artwork, albums end up in Year/AlbumName sort order. Odd, perhaps, but having them in name order isn't any more useful for me.

3) For vorbis tags, apparently the tag name itself can be upper, lower, or mixed case. The values of tags are also case insensitive: Smith = smith = SMITH. They're stored in the SlimServer database in all caps.

Mike Hanson
2005-08-02, 03:37
2) Yes, that's how it works. ALBUMSORT works similarly. I've played with ALBUMSORT, entering [Year] [AlbumName] to get albums to sort chronologically when browsing artists. This works great, but then browsing albums or artwork, albums end up in Year/AlbumName sort order. Odd, perhaps, but having them in name order isn't any more useful for me.
Make your ALBUMSORT value equal to [ArtistSort][Year][AlbumName], and you'll have the best of all worlds.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

JulianL
2005-08-02, 07:02
That's pretty clever. On reflection I think this is the best compromise for me personally. Like Jim, I really want my albums by artist to sort in chronological order and this does it whithout quite such a disruption (for me) to the sort mode when browsing by album. I'm also now realising that I want two different browse by album modes, one being how your (Mike's) Albumsort key will do it (which is the electronic equivalent of me scanning through my physical CD rack at the moment) but the other being alphabetical browse.

For some reason I'm having qualms about loosing the alphabetical browsing of album functionality but this is probably my inexperience and I suspect I would never use that anyway. If I want a specific album I can search for it.

One question. If you search for an album then will the search results be sorted using Albumsort values? This is probably the only area that would bug me a bit. If I search for albums beginning with "An" then I would prefer the search results in alphabetical order by album title not in artist/year order.

- Julian

JulianL
2005-08-02, 07:14
Make your ALBUMSORT value equal to [ArtistSort][Year][AlbumName], and you'll have the best of all worlds.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I'm just coming to do this and it occurred to me that, for ease of typing, one doesn't really need to bother with the [albumname] at all for most artists do you? In fact it might be the wrong thing to put anyway. If an artist has released 2 albums in the same year then you don't want them alphabetically sorted (probably) but would be better using a/b/c etc to force the sort order.

I admit I haven't thought through tagging of various artists albums because I have very few and I just categorize them under an artict called various.

- Julian

Ben Sandee
2005-08-02, 07:23
On 8/2/05, JulianL <JulianL.1t546c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> One question. If you search for an album then will the search results
> be sorted using Albumsort values? This is probably the only area that
> would bug me a bit. If I search for albums beginning with "An" then I
> would prefer the search results in alphabetical order by album title
> not in artist/year order.

A bug you might run into when using these alternate sort tags is this:

Bugzilla Bug 1636: Searching for artists doesn't search display name
properly, uses sort order instead

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1636

This is particularly annoying because a search for "bob dylan" returns
no results but "dylan, bob" works fine. I just end up searching for
"dylan" though which works just fine I suppose.

Ben

JulianL
2005-08-02, 09:03
On 8/2/05, JulianL <JulianL.1t546c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> One question. If you search for an album then will the search results
> be sorted using Albumsort values? This is probably the only area that
> would bug me a bit. If I search for albums beginning with "An" then I
> would prefer the search results in alphabetical order by album title
> not in artist/year order.

A bug you might run into when using these alternate sort tags is this:

Bugzilla Bug 1636: Searching for artists doesn't search display name
properly, uses sort order instead

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1636

This is particularly annoying because a search for "bob dylan" returns
no results but "dylan, bob" works fine. I just end up searching for
"dylan" though which works just fine I suppose.

Ben
Ah. Thanks for that Ben. This would also create a reason why the Album title does need to be in the Albumsort tag because otherwise it is possible that searching for an album could stop working altogether. Yet again someone on this forum helps prevent me taking a wrong turn before I get too far into something.

As a workaround to the bug you describe and a solution to your problem, could you not set your Artistsort value (using your Bob Dylan example) to "Dylan, Bob Bob Dylan" (i.e. in the format "<name you want to sort by> <display name>", in this case the second "Bob" is redundant but I show it for consistency). The key will still sort correctly as "Dylan, Bob" but there is also the "Bob Dylan" string in there for search to find.

- Julian

Ben Sandee
2005-08-02, 10:00
On 8/2/05, JulianL <JulianL.1t59qc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
> Ah. Thanks for that Ben. This would also create a reason why the Album
> title does need to be in the Albumsort tag because otherwise it is
> possible that searching for an album could stop working altogether. Yet
> again someone on this forum helps prevent me taking a wrong turn before
> I get too far into something.
>
> As a workaround to the bug you describe and a solution to your problem,
> could you not set your Artistsort value (using your Bob Dylan example)
> to "Dylan, Bob Bob Dylan" (i.e. in the format "<name you want to sort
> by> <display name>", in this case the second "Bob" is redundant but I
> show it for consistency). The key will still sort correctly as "Dylan,
> Bob" but there is also the "Bob Dylan" string in there for search to
> find.

Good point, I could do that! I think I'll just be patient for now --
the bug is targeted for 6.2 at the moment...

I wish Tag&Rename supported these sort order tags. I may have to
write my own 'lil [Java] tool to mass retag if the bug goes unfixed
long enough.

Ben

JulianL
2005-08-02, 11:09
Jim (JJZolx) recommended http://www.mp3tag.de/en/ to me and I love it. I was currently 3 days into my 30 day trial of Tag & Rename. Admittedly I'm not a very sophisticated user but I'm finding mp3tag really great.

Excuse my newbie question, I did try a search on "6.2 release date". Now I think you can probably guess my next question :-). What is the current estimate for 6.2 release? I need to decide whether I implement that workaround. Aesthetically I prefer not to if the fix is close. I know it's not user visible, but I'd know how ugly my Albumsort tags were.

- Julian

Ben Sandee
2005-08-02, 12:37
On 8/2/05, JulianL <JulianL.1t5fin (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Jim (JJZolx) recommended http://www.mp3tag.de/en/ to me and I love it. I
> was currently 3 days into my 30 day trial of Tag & Rename. Admittedly
> I'm not a very sophisticated user but I'm finding mp3tag really great.
>
> Excuse my newbie question, I did try a search on "6.2 release date".
> Now I think you can probably guess my next question :-). What is the
> current estimate for 6.2 release? I need to decide whether I implement
> that workaround. Aesthetically I prefer not to if the fix is close. I
> know it's not user visible, but I'd know how ugly my Albumsort tags
> were.

I've got no idea on 6.2 is coming out or if this bug will really be
fixed in time for it. As far as I know nobody is working on it
although Vidur did seem to know what was going on and confirmed the
bug (sorta). It's really not a showstopper for me because I don't
search all that much. I'd much rather have the bug where if you have
multiple artists on a track and use artist separators (Wilco;Billy
Bragg) and then have those artists solo too (Wilco) it results in two
listings for that artist in the artist list. Weird! I'm regretting
using the artist separator feature but I'm sorta committed to it now
that I've modified my tags. I ain't goin' back! :-)

Ben

smc2911
2006-03-19, 19:30
Here's a twist. Because I am using mp3 files, I thought I should use TSOP to sort my artists. I tried and failed. I was surprised, since I thought this would be supported, based on my reading of http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimServerSupportedTags and various discussion threads. I then took a closer look at my tags and I realised that, despite being mp3s, my files were tagged with ARTIST rather than TPE1. This will certainly because the files were all produced in bulk from FLAC files using foobar2000, so presumably the FLAC ARTIST (and other) tags were just passed over. Am I to assume from this that TSOP only works if TPE1 is present?

Sean.