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oiler1fan
2005-07-11, 11:58
I just transferred some of my old vinyl favorites into .wav format using Nero Wave Editor. When I play the songs back thru iTunes everything is perfect - equalized volume with all the other existing files and pretty good quality too. Problem is when I playback thru my Squeezebox - the volume levels of the new files are very depressed when compared to the others. Why and how do I fix it?

cliveb
2005-07-12, 01:24
I just transferred some of my old vinyl favorites into .wav format using Nero Wave Editor. When I play the songs back thru iTunes everything is perfect - equalized volume with all the other existing files and pretty good quality too. Problem is when I playback thru my Squeezebox - the volume levels of the new files are very depressed when compared to the others. Why and how do I fix it?
First of all, normalise your WAV files to make sure they peak to 100%. You'll now find that they probably still don't sound as loud as the files you've ripped from CDs (especially if those CDs are from about 1990 or later). This is because LPs are mastered with greater dynamic range than modern CDs, and so on average they sound quieter.

If you genuinely want your LP recordings to sound as loud as the CD rips, then the only thing you can do is apply some dynamic range compression, using a suitable audio editor. But be warned that this is a non-linear process and introduces some amount of distortion.

If you just want your LP recordings and CD rips to sound equally loud, and are prepared to turn up the volume generally, then the best solution is to apply an appropriate amount of less-than-unity gain to the CD rips. use an audio editor to analyse the WAV files and discover the RMS level. Then apply a corresponding decrease in volume to the CD rip. (For example, if a CD rip has an RMS level of -15dB, and an LP rip has an RMS level of -25db, apply -10dB of gain to the CD rip). This process is for all practical purposes linear and will not introduce distortion. (For the nit-pickers out there: yes I know that there will be minor arithmetic rounding errors and the very quietest parts could fall into the quantisation noise, but modern CDs are so incompetently mastered that these very small artifacts will probably be inaudible).

Mike Hanson
2005-07-12, 02:55
Wouldn't it be cool if we could place a file called VOLUME.TXT into the directory. When SlimServer saw this file, it would look for a single number within, which would be a volume adjustment amount. It would then pass this along to the SB, so that the volume for all songs in that directory would be adjusted accordingly. This way, if there's a particular batch of songs that seems too loud or quiet, then you could tweak them on an as-needed basis.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

stuorguk
2005-07-12, 06:08
Wouldn't it be cool if we could place a file called VOLUME.TXT into the directory. When SlimServer saw this file, it would look for a single number within, which would be a volume adjustment amount.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-

You might want to add your idea, and vote for this feature request:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1700

Stuart.

oiler1fan
2005-07-12, 06:11
Clive

Thanks for the input - I now understand a lot more for the reasons, but not enough to work your solution. How do I "normalize the wav files to peak at 100%"

radish
2005-07-12, 06:16
Wouldn't it be cool if we could place a file called VOLUME.TXT into the directory. When SlimServer saw this file, it would look for a single number within, which would be a volume adjustment amount. It would then pass this along to the SB, so that the volume for all songs in that directory would be adjusted accordingly. This way, if there's a particular batch of songs that seems too loud or quiet, then you could tweak them on an as-needed basis.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Or you could just use replaygain and put that magic number in a tag in the file itself. There's already an enhancement request open to add replaygain support.

Howard Darwen
2005-07-12, 06:23
would it not be better to use replaygain if the aim is to get the files to
be at the same perceived volume level?

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com]On Behalf Of stuorguk
Sent: 12 July 2005 14:08
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Subject: [slim] Re: Volume levels across files



Mike Hanson Wrote:
> Wouldn't it be cool if we could place a file called VOLUME.TXT into the
> directory. When SlimServer saw this file, it would look for a single
> number within, which would be a volume adjustment amount.
> -=> Mike Hanson <=-

You might want to add your idea, and vote for this feature request:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1700

Stuart.


--
stuorguk

pfarrell
2005-07-12, 06:44
On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 06:11 -0700, oiler1fan wrote:
> Thanks for the input - I now understand a lot more for the reasons, but
> not enough to work your solution. How do I "normalize the wav files to
> peak at 100%"

You have to use a suitable audio wavefile editor.
Syntrillium CoolEdit was great and I still use it for that.
They sold the product line to Adobe and they renamed it Audition

With an audio editor, you typically select the whole file and
click on tools -> normalize

These editors also typically have compressors, which
allow you to reduce dymanic range so that older tunes
can sound like more recent ones. However, many
folks in the recording and mastering space
think modern CDs are over compressed so that all
life is squeezed out of them. So listen
and be sure you like the results.

Pat

--
Pat Farrell PRC recording studio
http://www.pfarrell.com/PRC

Mike Hanson
2005-07-12, 07:18
Or you could just use replaygain and put that magic number in a tag in the file itself. There's already an enhancement request open to add replaygain support.
Yes, that makes perfect sense (assuming that it can be done). However, this needs to work for all file types: FLAC, MP3, etc. Does replaygain do that?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Howard Darwen
2005-07-12, 07:51
foobars replaygain scanner seems to support just about everything ...

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Replaygain

but you're reliant on the player understanding and acting on the tags of
course.

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com]On Behalf Of Mike Hanson
Sent: 12 July 2005 15:18
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Subject: [slim] Re: Volume levels across files



radish Wrote:
> Or you could just use replaygain and put that magic number in a tag in
> the file itself. There's already an enhancement request open to add
> replaygain support.
Yes, that makes perfect sense (assuming that it can be done). However,
this needs to work for all file types: FLAC, MP3, etc. Does replaygain
do that?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-


--
Mike Hanson

cliveb
2005-07-12, 07:56
On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 06:11 -0700, oiler1fan wrote:
> Thanks for the input - I now understand a lot more for the reasons, but
> not enough to work your solution. How do I "normalize the wav files to
> peak at 100%"

You have to use a suitable audio wavefile editor.
Syntrillium CoolEdit was great and I still use it for that.
They sold the product line to Adobe and they renamed it Audition

Audition is of course rather expensive (about $300). It's a shame that Adobe buried the much more affordable CoolEdit 2000 when they acquired Syntrillium's IPR.

A fairly nice (and free) audio editor that will be able to do the normalisation for you is Audacity.



These editors also typically have compressors, which
allow you to reduce dymanic range so that older tunes
can sound like more recent ones. However, many
folks in the recording and mastering space
think modern CDs are over compressed so that all
life is squeezed out of them. So listen
and be sure you like the results.
I'm at work right now so don't have it to hand, but I'm pretty sure Audacity also has a compressor if you want to play around using free tools.

I will reinforce what Pat says about compression - modern CDs (at least pop & rock ones) are hypercompressed so much these days that they have virtually no sense of dynamics at all. If you compress your LP recordings similarly, they will end up sounding just as bad.

oiler1fan
2005-07-12, 08:05
So basically leave well alone and crank up the volume when playing transferred vinyl tracks and enjoy more dynamic range...

Spies
2005-07-12, 08:27
I assume you have "Sound Check" turned on in iTunes. I would recommend
that you turn "Sound Check" off and apply MP3Gain
http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ to your MP3 and AAC files and WaveGain
http://www.rarewares.org/others.html to your WAV and AIFF files. This
method works with all audio players including the Squeezebox since you
are modifying the audio data in the file.

On 7/11/05, oiler1fan <oiler1fan.1s0r5z (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> I just transferred some of my old vinyl favorites into .wav format using
> Nero Wave Editor. When I play the songs back thru iTunes everything is
> perfect - equalized volume with all the other existing files and pretty
> good quality too. Problem is when I playback thru my Squeezebox - the
> volume levels of the new files are very depressed when compared to the
> others. Why and how do I fix it?
>
>
> --
> oiler1fan
>

Craig, James (IT)
2005-07-12, 08:34
Oooh. This is new:

19 March 2005
Just a reminder that the new AAC part of mp3gain is experimental. It's
simply newer, so problems are still being found (and fixed). Use it at
your own risk, and I'd suggest backing up your files first.

Does anyone here have any experience on using mp3gain on AAC files?


James
--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

Spies
2005-07-12, 08:53
I have used it without issue but I have always made backups of my
files before I applied MP3gain just in case. More information can be
found here http://altosdesign.com/aacgain/

On 7/12/05, Craig, James (IT) <James.Craig (AT) morganstanley (DOT) com> wrote:
> Oooh. This is new:
>
> 19 March 2005
> Just a reminder that the new AAC part of mp3gain is experimental. It's
> simply newer, so problems are still being found (and fixed). Use it at
> your own risk, and I'd suggest backing up your files first.
>
> Does anyone here have any experience on using mp3gain on AAC files?
>
>
> James
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.
>

robertwallace
2005-07-12, 18:17
Another free program that will normalize wav files is Audiograbber
<www.audiograbber.com> - a CD ripper. If the wav files have already
been ripped to your hard drive, just select 'em all and click the button.

Robert

cliveb wrote:

>pfarrell Wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 06:11 -0700, oiler1fan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Thanks for the input - I now understand a lot more for the reasons,
>>>
>>>
>>but
>>
>>
>>>not enough to work your solution. How do I "normalize the wav files
>>>
>>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>peak at 100%"
>>>
>>>
>>You have to use a suitable audio wavefile editor.
>>Syntrillium CoolEdit was great and I still use it for that.
>>They sold the product line to Adobe and they renamed it Audition
>>
>>
>>
>Audition is of course rather expensive (about $300). It's a shame that
>Adobe buried the much more affordable CoolEdit 2000 when they acquired
>Syntrillium's IPR.
>
>A fairly nice (and free) audio editor that will be able to do the
>normalisation for you is Audacity.
>
>
>
>>These editors also typically have compressors, which
>>allow you to reduce dymanic range so that older tunes
>>can sound like more recent ones. However, many
>>folks in the recording and mastering space
>>think modern CDs are over compressed so that all
>>life is squeezed out of them. So listen
>>and be sure you like the results.
>>
>>
>I'm at work right now so don't have it to hand, but I'm pretty sure
>Audacity also has a compressor if you want to play around using free
>tools.
>
>I will reinforce what Pat says about compression - modern CDs (at least
>pop & rock ones) are hypercompressed so much these days that they have
>virtually no sense of dynamics at all. If you compress your LP
>recordings similarly, they will end up sounding just as bad.
>
>
>
>

max.spicer
2005-07-13, 05:44
Someone probably ought to mention replaygain here. Rather than permanently altering your files, you store meta data inside them to say how much the volume should be altered by when they are played back on compatible players. That way you can chose to play them with their volume "as is" or altered on the fly. Admittedly though, this probably isn't such an issue when your source is an lp as opposed to cd. Sadly, SB2 doesn't currently support replaygain for flac files. It may for mp3s - I really don't know.

Max

michael
2005-07-14, 13:11
max.spicer <max.spicer.1s3z50 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> writes:

....
> SB2 doesn't currently support replaygain for flac files.

Well, in a pinch you can do flac->flac conversion on the server and
get replaygain, but you're giving up fastforward/rewind if you
do. Depending on which is more important to you, it might be worth the
trade off until replaygain is implemented in the firmware. (or if you
have a unit older than the sb2)

> It may for mp3s - I really don't know.

pretty much the same deal as for flac. you can use a program like
mp3gain to apply the change to the file, or you can do mp3 decoding on
the server (with the appropriate decoder) and apply replaygain (from
tags) before sending to the squeezebox.


-michael

--
I feel like my life is just a little
umop apisdn * upside down * umop apisdn

Spies
2005-07-14, 15:24
What I would love to see in the interim is for some clever person to
create a plug in or a modification to the web interface that would
allow turning on and off and setting the options for the flac
--apply-replaygain-which-is-not-lossless. Something like how you can
adjust the quality and bit rate of the lame encoder now. As it stands
now one has to modify convert.conf which is kind of a pain. Any
takers?

On 7/14/05, michael <michael (AT) fallenangel (DOT) com> wrote:
> max.spicer <max.spicer.1s3z50 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> writes:
>
> ...
> > SB2 doesn't currently support replaygain for flac files.
>
> Well, in a pinch you can do flac->flac conversion on the server and
> get replaygain, but you're giving up fastforward/rewind if you
> do. Depending on which is more important to you, it might be worth the
> trade off until replaygain is implemented in the firmware. (or if you
> have a unit older than the sb2)
>
> > It may for mp3s - I really don't know.
>
> pretty much the same deal as for flac. you can use a program like
> mp3gain to apply the change to the file, or you can do mp3 decoding on
> the server (with the appropriate decoder) and apply replaygain (from
> tags) before sending to the squeezebox.
>
>
> -michael
>
> --
> I feel like my life is just a little
> umop apisdn * upside down * umop apisdn
>
>
>

djaffe205
2005-07-17, 00:27
Just thought I'd add a link to a related thread so that you can all put in your votes for the replaygain / volume tagging enhancements. I believe these are two of the four most requested enhancements in the database:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=14667&highlight=replaygain

jsutula
2005-07-17, 16:28
What I would love to see in the interim is for some clever person to
create a plug in or a modification to the web interface that would
allow turning on and off and setting the options for the flac
--apply-replaygain-which-is-not-lossless. Something like how you can
adjust the quality and bit rate of the lame encoder now. As it stands
now one has to modify convert.conf which is kind of a pain. Any
takers?


I'm working on a plugin right now to adjust Replaygain CL options to use album/track gain depending on the context of the playlist:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=15133

It would be a simple addition to add options to use none/album/track/smart(context) options in the web interface.

However, I'm a true beginner in the plugin making world so it might take a bit longer than you would expect ;). I'll keep you updated.