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dawoop
2005-04-13, 03:25
First of all, i am very impressed how everything works except syncing.

I have everything "up-to-date". I use the following components:
- Slimserver
- Softsqueeze

Sometimes the syncing works great with local mp3s but sometimes not. I do not have any idea, when this happens. We do everything with high performance ethernet and good pc's (p4 at least 2.8 ghz), so there should be no bottleneck.

The funny thing is, when we play an internet radio stream it is perfectly streamed with sync.

Is somebody out there who has the same problems?

dawoop
2005-04-14, 12:54
First of all, i am very impressed how everything works except syncing.

I have everything "up-to-date". I use the following components:
- Slimserver
- Softsqueeze

Sometimes the syncing works great with local mp3s but sometimes not. I do not have any idea, when this happens. We do everything with high performance ethernet and good pc's (p4 at least 2.8 ghz), so there should be no bottleneck.

The funny thing is, when we play an internet radio stream it is perfectly streamed with sync.

Is somebody out there who has the same problems?

OK, now I have also the same Problem with Internet Radio Streams.

rtitmuss
2005-04-14, 15:35
First have you looked at http://softsqueeze.sourceforge.net/sync.html?
If this does not help, please describe in more detail whats wrong with
the sync. e.g. tracks start together then drift off, they never sync, etc.

Richard

Masterbaron
2005-04-14, 15:47
More importantly why are they selling a feature that is not 100%. Next what happened to the "network clock" option they were going to implement. I called tech support and I quote "it has proved to be a technical challenge to provide accurate synchronization. I have no problem with this if they would simply say it's NOT 100% but they aren't owning up to this on the website. I have seen no developer comments that indicates this is a high priority. Additionally, I bought the SB1 specifically for this reason - when I called tech support they indicated SB2 would solve the problem - this apparntly is also not the case. I'm concerned that they will offer a SB3 that has working synchronization so I'm sort of waiting to see what happens. At least they should talk about this and be straight-up with their loyal customers. This bothes me alot since SB2 came out 3 weeks after I bought a SB1.

Ben Sandee
2005-04-14, 16:37
On 4/14/05, Masterbaron <Masterbaron.1ni35b (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> More importantly why are they selling a feature that is not 100%. Next
> what happened to the "network clock" option they were going to
> implement. I called tech support and I quote "it has proved to be a
> technical challenge to provide accurate synchronization.

<snip>

I used to have lots of problems with syncing (6-12 months ago) but as
of 6.0+ I am syncing two SliMP3's, one SB2 a SoftSqueeze AND a
slimp3slave on my linux box without any troubles.

I also had a defective SliMP3 a year ago that made my sync problems
even worse but Slimdevices fixed that for me.

Ben

caclement
2005-05-24, 14:21
I am having the same issue and am looking for help. I am trying to sync a squeezebox1 with softsqueeze. I followed the website and loaded the latest java as well as the java mp3 plugin. I can get it close but not close enough for it to consider it being sync'd. There is usually somewhere between a .25 second to full 1 second delay. Not good enough to suit my purposes. I'm told that the synchronization between squeezeboxes directly is perfect. Can't say for sure as I haven't purchased my second squeezebox as of yet. I have networked pcs throughout the home and would like to establish a wireless whole house audio so it needs to be truly sync'd. Anyone have any ideas as to how to accomplish this with softsqueeze or any other method.

Thanks

rtitmuss
2005-05-27, 13:20
caclement wrote:

>I am having the same issue and am looking for help. I am trying to sync
>a squeezebox1 with softsqueeze. I followed the website and loaded the
>latest java as well as the java mp3 plugin. I can get it close but not
>close enough for it to consider it being sync'd. There is usually
>somewhere between a .25 second to full 1 second delay.
>
That is not working right, you should not hear any delay when playing in
sync. You did not mention what type of operating system you are using.
If it is windows check that you are using the Primary Sound driver.

Does the delay vary during a song, or is it constant. Also what leads
the squeezebox or Softsqueeze?

Although most people report that sync with Softsqueeze works well, a few
people are having problems. At the moment I am not sure why.

Regards,
Richard

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Mr=2E_N=F5u=22?=
2005-05-30, 09:45
Richard Titmuss wrote:
> caclement wrote:
>
>> I am having the same issue and am looking for help. I am trying to sync
>> a squeezebox1 with softsqueeze. I followed the website and loaded the
>> latest java as well as the java mp3 plugin. I can get it close but not
>> close enough for it to consider it being sync'd. There is usually
>> somewhere between a .25 second to full 1 second delay.
>>
> That is not working right, you should not hear any delay when playing in
> sync. You did not mention what type of operating system you are using.
> If it is windows check that you are using the Primary Sound driver.
>

same problem here, check on the primary sound driver. running on
windows 2000 professional, 6.1 nightly from may 24th, java and OS
updated to latest rev/patch.

> Does the delay vary during a song, or is it constant. Also what leads
> the squeezebox or Softsqueeze?
>

delay constant, softsqueeze lagging by about 1 second.

> Although most people report that sync with Softsqueeze works well, a few
> people are having problems. At the moment I am not sure why.
>
> Regards,
> Richard

best,
peter

max.spicer
2005-05-30, 14:14
I'm running SoftSqueeze 2.0b7 on Windows XPSP2, with Java Version 1.5.0 (build 1.5.0_02-b09). SoftSqueeze is using the Java MP3 plugin and the Primary Sound Driver. I've not managed to get it to sync with my SB2 wireless - there's a delay of somewhere under 0.5 seconds (to my ears). It's fine if neither device is overloud and you're nearer to one, but if you move to the boundary between the two, you really notice it. This is a constant lag that does not appear to vary between songs.

Maditude
2005-05-30, 16:44
Solely in the interest of providing another data-point, this "bug" doesn't actually bother me... ;-)

I'm seeing the same thing here -- I'd say it's more like about a third to a half of a second difference, with the softsqueeze "ahead" of the squeezebox. All my collection is mp3, the songs I was trying to synch with were all 192kbps constant-rate.

Slimserver is 6.02, running on a AMD 1.2ghz duron, freebsd 4.11-stable, 256mb ram, load average is 0.02,0.03,0.00 (ie, exceedingly not busy). Connected to 100mbps switch in my office via about 5 feet of cat5 ethernet.

Squeezebox2 connected to same 100mbps switch in my office, via about 150 feet of cat5 ethernet.

Softsqueeze running on my winxp desktop (up-to-date java), connected to same switch via about 5 feet of cat5 ethernet.

(Solution: only play "live" music, and pretend it's just an echo)

I tried synching both ways (synch the squeezebox with the softsqueeze, and vice versa), but it didn't make any difference.

max.spicer
2005-05-31, 07:01
A bit more carefull listening reveals that my SoftSqueeze is a fraction ahead of my SB2, not behind as I previously stated.

When I turn on one of the devices, I don't get synchronisation initially, but I wouldn't expect that given the way the sync works. However, if I leave it playing, rather than start a new track (in order to get synced), it sometimes jumps a track on its own. This also happens if I turn off a device: I had SoftSqueeze and my SB2 synced and then turned of my SB2 via the web interface. SSq carried on for about twenty seconds, then skipped to the next track.

Masterbaron
2005-05-31, 13:07
Syncronization does not work on a MAC either. Dual G5; 2mghz; Tiger; ethernet connection; latest version of SlimServer and Softsqueeze. If you think about it we're trying to get the electrons in two different cpu's to travel at the same speed. We're asking two chips to talk at the same rate; two buffers to spill at the same rate. We need a network clock for God's Sake...bkn

rtitmuss
2005-06-06, 14:27
I have been testing Softsqueeze sync with SB1 and SB2 this evening, and
other than a couple of glitches it has worked with no audible delays.
This is proving a really tricky problem to debug; for starters could
people who are having problems post the Softsqueeze debug with Player
and Javasound debug enabled (not the verbose options). It is also really
important to know if Softsqueeze is ahead or behind the SBx - I know
from experience when debugging sync early on this can be tricky to hear
correctly.

To help isolate problems with codecs, etc. I would like to put together
a reference playlist for testing sync. Does anyone know a source of
music that we could use without copyright issues?

Thanks,
Richard

glmason
2005-06-09, 04:35
While it is not 100% constant, I get the same, .5 to 1 sec delay, it is always he softsqeeze that is ahead... sometimes it work great, alot of times I can get a song to sync up by pressing the relay [<<] button, that song syncs, but then the next one is out again. The radio is alway out... can be anywhere from 2 to five seconds. I'll try tonight with debugs turned on.

Larry

caclement
2005-06-09, 21:11
Posted a while back on the softsqueeze/SB1 sync problem. I am using Windows XPSP2. Softsqueeze is always ahead of the squeezebox. I upgraded to the latest java, using the primary sound driver, etc. All of the things recommended on the softsqueeze website to no avail. I am using a wireless network (54G) solution for all the slimdevices. The slimserver is on a pc with hardwired ethernet.

Don't worry Richard, slimdevices can't seen to get the SB1/SB2 to syncronize either. As I didn't spend my hard earned money to buy softsqueeze I have plenty of patience on this one. My feelings are a bit different on the SB1/SB2 sync issue.

MrC
2005-06-11, 00:24
Hi All,

I too am having trouble synching. In fact, I can't get synch to work at all. I believe I've followed the instructions for softsqueeze (2.0b8).

When I try to synch a second softsqueeze to one onready playing, the song on the second system starts at the beginning of the currently playing track! Then, when I stop synchronization, the first softsqueeze sputters like nuts, and then goes to the next song.

Oddly, the track times are correct for the second player upon synch start!

Sometimes starting the sync on the second system halts the first one!

It seems there is something very much not working.

Any help?

[ Edit: I've discovered that I cannot start synching in the middle of a song. If I restart the song, then I can get sync to work. Is this correct? ]

loganc
2005-06-15, 07:01
Hi all,

Just wanted to throw a flicker of light at the end of the tunnel for those seeking sync, especially for the X Tiger users. :)

I manage an AppleCentre in Sydney, Australia, and I initally found SlimServer and the Squeezeboxes while trying to find a sync'd music solution for these strange, cylindrical network music players we'd just got in. After discovering - they didnt - and the mass of disgust for them and all fingers pointing to this open source (!), free solution called SlimServer, I had to have a look. After lots of trial and error, process of elimination, very patient staff and customers (thanks guys!!) we have a flawless, sync'd, rock solid music experience.

We have our G5 tower (have had a SP 1.8 G5, as of two weeks ago a DP 2.0 G5), which runs SlimServer 6.1 nightly and Softsqueeze 2.0b8 running a set of demo speakers. Connected by boring old CAT5 100mbps LAN, thru 2 switches, patch cable couplers, and surrounded by EFI (hehehe), we have our iMac G5 20" running SS 2.0b8 powering a second speaker set, our iMac 17" running a third set, eMac our fourth set, and iBook 12" our fifth set.

After countless outburts of swearing and total exasperation, here is what may or may not work for you, regarless of platform, but sure as hell worked for me:

If WiFi - 802.11g for all devices is fine, as long as you don't WDS. We had 2 base stations, WDS'd together... does not work well for this application. The drop in bandwidth not so much an issue, but the transmission delays from the half-duplex nature of WDS caused a whole heap of headaches. I guess the packets that say "ok thanks, buffer at 70%" and "on your marks, get set GO!" are quite small, and easily queue-jumped out of the way when music was pouring through the WLAN. If WiFi is your deal... use one base station or use ethernet cable. :) For the multicast rate, always ended up back at 1 for greatest stability and responsiveness.

Use a long lease time if using DHCP or use Static IP's. One of many screaming points was music was good, sync was good, and then stop! for no apparent reason. I'm using static because I'm too lazy to change them back :)

Obviously if SoftSqueeze driven, you gotta run Tiger - Install the Java 1.5 release 1 update!!! Download it from Apple, install, open the Java 1.5 preferences app, tell it to use J2SE 5 as default for everything, save, and repair permissions (cos at time of writing, it buggers out every time you make a change). If your not using Tiger, you wont get sync. No Java 1.5 (J2SE 5) - no sync. You can however use the HTTP interface on 10.3.9 - more in a bit.

Install Softsqueeze 2.0b8+ locally - no Java WebStart. Can't rely on Java 1.5 on Tiger that much as of yet. Less load on everything, the better.

Use the latest version of SlimServer you can. I'm using 6.1 (sorry, not at work so can't remember version, but downloaded latest on Sunday). If something is terribly broken, just got back a few builds until you're good.

If you're first song being sync'd is critical, play a non-sync'd song on each player before creating/joining a sync group. Skip forward a few times, let it settle. Most importantly, before joining one player with another - STOP THE STREAM! :) :) This was the most important thing I learnt. Join the player(s) while stopped, either via HTTP or the remote controls, then start a song... 9 times out of 10, it'll be perfect. For me, only very occasionally will the first song after initial boot will be out of sync... has been two weeks at least.

Initially, skipping backwards seems to throw the toys out of the cot big time. Use the HTTP inteface and click the song, rather than the back-skip button. Not an issue any more. To restart the current song, just press Play while playing.

Initially, when skipping forward songs, wait 3 or 4 seconds between each skip. Used to occasionally cause a bit of the last song to continue playing and would lose sync... no longer a problem.

If you're using WiFi, and your network traffic is moderate/bitrates high... the HTTP interface will almost guarantee to make your music sync all wonky. Use the remote control on the SSqueeze to control the music. (No WDS!! :) ) The player ready messages, player start messages etc seemed to get delayed causing wonky sync. If your network connectivity is good between your SlimServer and players as well as browser and SlimServer- your HTTP interface should be snappy as.

I don't have a bitrate limit on any of the players, because I hate the gap it caused between each song, but I do have LAME installed, and I've set the quality for each player at 3. It sounds crystal clear, doesn't even touch the sides of the DP G5, and means AAC's play.

Make sure you're running the latest OS X and QuickTime. Currently, we're on 10.4.1, with QT 7.0.1. Make sure you've got plenty of RAM free, and have hard-disks set to not spin down. (If the drive was spun down, and a prog caused it to spin up, it made the music stutter for a split second on that player. May or may not be relevant, but remember, it works for me!)

For the ultimate in responsiveness when controlling via HTTP on OS X 10.3.9, use Firefox. Safari (or perhaps browser Java) was terribly latent. 10.4 doesn't seem to suffer the same. Start with the Light theme... no clever coding to possibly cause button-clicking (play, skip etc) to get tangled on the way to the SlimServer unnecessarily. We're using any of the pick of themes now without any major issues (on 10.3.9 and 10.4.1). The heavier Javascript pages can be intermittently laggy on 10.3.9 and require regular manual browser refreshes.

While troubleshooting, keep you're browser cache clean, and REGULARLY manually refresh, especially after any player config changes. However, doing that after a volume adjustment or track skip may cause the action to repeat... The SServer should refresh the page itself.

If the players continually get messed up, reset each SoftSqueeze config, change the ficiticious MAC address of each player, quit each of the players, "forget" each player on the server, stop/start SlimServer/reboot server, start the SoftSqueezes up again, and start again. I don't know how many times I spent far too long trying to figure something out, when doing this fixed it straight away.

If the music refuses to start playing, you've got a player in the sync'd group that's not responding "I'm at 70% buffer, ready when you are!" to the SlimServer. The server waits for all the players in it's group to say this before it waves the flag, and if one doesn't respond, you'll wait forever. Quit and reopen each player, and you'll spot the sleepy one. If you know which player it is and it's been quit for whatever reason and just want the music to start, open the player settings via HTTP and remove it from the sync group. Music should start immediately, otherwise skip forward a song.

It seems like a lot, but these few tips have got us to a point where we have a central music server, adopting the iTunes library of the "Staff" user on the G5 tower, running SoftSqueeze under the "Demo" user which powers the SoundSticks II, an iMac G5 20" powering Altec Lansings, iMac G5 17" powering Creature Speakers, an eMac powering JBL Duets/PABX hold music, and iBook 12" powering another set of Altec L's. All remote controls on the SSqueeze's have been disabled (to stop pimply teenagers from deafening the rest of us hehehe), with all control done via HTTP from any of the demo or Point of Sale machines on the network. Without a word of a lie, it is rock solid, never loses sync, never skips a beat. And in a store the size of approx. 110 square metres, boasting 10 speakers and four subwoofers, the music experience is absolutely to die for... whatever taste in music you have. Before doors open and the moment doors close, the volume goes 2 thirds of capacity and can be heard from the carpark.

It's a fantastic demo of technology and hardware and a priceless sales tool. Now when we demo speakers for a customer, and they see us control the whole store and rather volumous output via a web browser, or PDA, or Salling Clicker on my mobile... our sales, across the board, soar. When not demo'ing and just have store music playing, we have 50% more foot traffic than with only a single set of speakers playing. I prove this regularly to the staff (and to our sister store, with it's quadruple staffing and floor space, who's sales we've beaten every day for the past two weeks!) by shutting the music down. The proof is in the pudding!

Thank you Slim Devices. Thank you Softsqueeze. Thank you this forum. Thank you everyone for your discussions about your experiences. This goes in the top 5 most-ingenious-computer-thing at a close winner.

Logan
AppleCentre Manager, Sydney, Australia.

PS - the cylindrical network music players were sent back to the distributor due to lack of interoperability across OS platforms, closed-source attitude, and lack of sync functionality. (grin) I'm dying to sell the SqueezeBox's and will push them like you wouldn't believe when I get the chance to order some in.

MrC
2005-06-15, 09:35
You forgot to tell us about your children and their life stories as well. :-)

loganc
2005-06-16, 09:16
*blushes* mind the unnecessaries, I wanted to get my thoughts across on how well the system can work.... as always, a tangeant I leapt on! :)

madcat
2005-06-16, 20:42
Thanks loganc, that's very helpful. Is Tiger the only way to get Java 1.5 on OS X? Is Java 1.5 the only reason Tiger is required, or are there others? I have OS X 10.3.9 and would love to get sync to work with SoftSqueeze--that is, without adding yet another $100 to my audio budget. I really don't need any other feature of OS X 10.4.

loganc
2005-06-18, 05:09
Currently, Java 1.5 is only available on Tiger. There are a number of system resources that Java requires which Panther does not provide, and although there are a number of people on the net who have forced an install on Panther, you'll see it's incredibly unreliable and unstable. Not what we need when trying to get to the holy sync grail.

See if you can get a second hand copy perhaps, or if you've a household, the family pack price is a lot cheaper.

Chrismh
2005-06-20, 09:19
I'm a relatively new squeezebox/slimserver user.

I've only had it up and operating a few weeks.

I'm using the lateset *released* beta (not the nightly builds) I've got a squeezbox1 and regularly sync one or more softsqeezes with it without problem. It wasn't in sync when I first tried it, but I played with the buffer size on the softsqueezes and it soon worked fine. I thought that was the trick.

However one of the recenct posts, that indicated slimserver waits until all buffers are 70% loaded leads me to belive that perhaps the buffer size changes had nothing to do with it.

Anyway... things generally sync fine for me. Every once in a while a song isn't quite synched... but when the next song is started they're back in sync perfectly, and this is a relatively rare occurance.

rtitmuss
2005-06-21, 14:05
I should have a Softsqueeze update in a few days with a sync fix.
Sometimes Softsqueeze will start playing a track late when sync'd with
other players, this is a timing problem and you are more likely to see
it on slower or heavily loaded machines. I hope this update will fix
most peoples problems with sync.

Earlier in this thread some people mentioned that Softsqueeze will
sometimes lead the SB1/SB2. So far I have not found any reason for this,
so any more information is welcome.

Richard

rtitmuss
2005-06-21, 14:12
caclement wrote:

>Posted a while back on the softsqueeze/SB1 sync problem. I am using
>Windows XPSP2. Softsqueeze is always ahead of the squeezebox.
>
>...
>
>Don't worry Richard, slimdevices can't seen to get the SB1/SB2 to
>syncronize either.
>
>
I find sync with SB1/SB2/Softsqueeze works well. Do you find sync
between softsqueeze/SB2 works ok? I am wondering if your problem is with
the network or slimserver, not Softsqueeze. Are you running Softsqueeze
on the same PC as the slimserver, or a different one?

Richard

rtitmuss
2005-06-21, 14:24
madcat wrote:

>Thanks loganc, that's very helpful. Is Tiger the only way to get Java
>1.5 on OS X? Is Java 1.5 the only reason Tiger is required, or are
>there others? I have OS X 10.3.9 and would love to get sync to work
>with SoftSqueeze--that is, without adding yet another $100 to my audio
>budget. I really don't need any other feature of OS X 10.4.
>
>
I thought I should clarify what Java version you need to use on what
operating systems to get sync working;

On Windows you need Java 1.5 otherwise sync will not work. Early
versions of Java have a large delay in the javasound audio buffer.

With Linux you need Java 1.4 or Java 1.5, but you must be using an ALSA
sound mixer.

Using OS X you may not get perfect sync. OS X 10.3.x ships with Java
1.4, the delay in javasound is much better than Java 1.4 on Windows, but
Softsqueeze will always be slightly behind the SB1/SB2. I have not seen
anything to suggest that Apple have changed the java sound
implementation for Java 1.5 in OS X 10.4.

So why does it work for loganc? He is not syncing with a hardware
player, so as long as the delay is consistent on all the macs then the
audio will sync. Add a hardware player and I think you will hear
Softsqueeze on OSX lag behind the Squeezebox.

Regards,
Richard

rtitmuss
2005-06-21, 14:28
MrC wrote:

>When I try to synch a second softsqueeze to one onready playing, the
>song on the second system starts at the beginning of the currently
>playing track!
>
>
I do find this happens sometimes, it is a slimserver bug. Pressing Play
or Fwd on either player should sort things out. If not let me know.

Richard

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mr_N=F5u?=
2005-06-21, 14:48
Richard Titmuss wrote:
> I should have a Softsqueeze update in a few days with a sync fix.
> Sometimes Softsqueeze will start playing a track late when sync'd with
> other players, this is a timing problem and you are more likely to see
> it on slower or heavily loaded machines. I hope this update will fix
> most peoples problems with sync.

my issue was always softsqueeze running behind, and running on a
"slower" machine (Thinkpad pentium 360 mhz). looking forward to try the
new release! thanks /peter

MrC
2005-06-21, 16:47
MrC wrote:

>When I try to synch a second softsqueeze to one onready playing, the
>song on the second system starts at the beginning of the currently
>playing track!
>
>
I do find this happens sometimes, it is a slimserver bug. Pressing Play
or Fwd on either player should sort things out. If not let me know.

Richard


Hello Richard,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, pressing play several times does synch the players. Of course, it is at the expense of starting the track from the beginning. Will the players every be able to just join into the currently playing song w/out restart?