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Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun
2005-03-30, 14:59
Julian,

I read your post with great enthusiasm - I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.

I was wondering, with SB2, can you discern any difference between WAV &
FLAC streamed from the server? I ask because I'm about to pay someone to
rip my whole CD collection, and can't decide whether to go FLAC with
Tags, or use directory/filename and stick with WAV. Got plenty of
storage, so compression not a requirement.

One other deciding factor would be the ease of converting the whole
library back to mp3/aac so that I could also load my ipod etc.

Tks

Natan



=======WE JUST UPDATED OUR WEBSITE WITH RECENT PHOTOS=======

================================================== ==========
Natan, Nicki & Ely Tiefenbrun Tiefenbruns (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk
Website: <http://www.tiefenbrun.com/>
www.tiefenbrun.com
Yahoo Messenger IDs: natannicki, natan_work
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<mailto:natan_t (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> Natan Instinet
================================================== ==========

JJ
2005-03-30, 15:17
See this post on another audio board. Very interesting, or troubling, or
.... something.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/3341.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun" <tiefenbruns (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk>
To: <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: [slim] Squeezebox 2 audio quality.


> Julian,
>
> I read your post with great enthusiasm - I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
> DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
> player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.
>
> I was wondering, with SB2, can you discern any difference between WAV &
> FLAC streamed from the server? I ask because I'm about to pay someone to
> rip my whole CD collection, and can't decide whether to go FLAC with
> Tags, or use directory/filename and stick with WAV. Got plenty of
> storage, so compression not a requirement.
>
> One other deciding factor would be the ease of converting the whole
> library back to mp3/aac so that I could also load my ipod etc.

Mike Reeve
2005-03-30, 15:52
Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun <tiefenbruns@...> writes:

> I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
> DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
> player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.

Hi

Just in case you are running a wireless set up ...
.... have you checked (and I apologise if you have already done so)
that you have set Player Settings > Bitrate Limiting to No Limit?

[Recall that it defaults to transcoding to 320Kbps MP3 ...
.... I forgot this once after changing my set up
and had a moment of shock/panic until I remembered :-O]

Mike

vidurapparao
2005-03-30, 16:25
Mike Reeve wrote:

>Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun <tiefenbruns@...> writes:
>
>
>
>>I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
>>DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
>>player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.
>>
>>
>
>Hi
>
>Just in case you are running a wireless set up ...
>... have you checked (and I apologise if you have already done so)
>that you have set Player Settings > Bitrate Limiting to No Limit?
>
>[Recall that it defaults to transcoding to 320Kbps MP3 ...
>... I forgot this once after changing my set up
>and had a moment of shock/panic until I remembered :-O]
>
>
>
My suggestion exactly. We've done bit-accuracy testing with FLAC, so
it's definitely not in the decoder on the box. My guess is that there's
MP3 transcoding going on.

--Vidur

Ken
2005-03-31, 11:01
Its also interesting that folks like yourself are quick to condemn that post without knowing whether or not a problem actually exists.

I am the person that posted that message on AudioAsylum, and ensuring that the player options were properly set was the very first thing I did. To ensure that nothing unexpected was going on I also monitored the Windows task manager to watched for lame.exe and/or flac.exe processes. After initial setup, the only thing I changed was the server settings under File Types to cause the server to stream FLAC or PCM. Everything else remain exactly as is. In neither case was lame being executed.

I cannot explain the differences, nor am I attempting to condemn the product. I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but noted that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two types of streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information would be taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks. I cannot explain the reasons for the differences I hear, merely that they do indeed exist.

Ken

Jason wrote:
> Wonderful that an "audiophile" is so quick to condemn the product on a
> discussion board when he obviously has something hosed in his setup.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
>>[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of
>>Vidur Apparao
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:26 PM
>>To: Slim Devices Discussion
>>Subject: [slim] Squeezebox 2 audio quality.
>>
>>Mike Reeve wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun <tiefenbruns@...> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
>>>>DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
>>>>player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>Just in case you are running a wireless set up ...
>>>... have you checked (and I apologise if you have already
>>
>>done so) that
>>
>>>you have set Player Settings > Bitrate Limiting to No Limit?
>>>
>>>[Recall that it defaults to transcoding to 320Kbps MP3 ...
>>>... I forgot this once after changing my set up and had a moment of
>>>shock/panic until I remembered :-O]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>My suggestion exactly. We've done bit-accuracy testing with
>>FLAC, so it's definitely not in the decoder on the box. My
>>guess is that there's
>>MP3 transcoding going on.
>>
>>--Vidur
>>

Ken
2005-03-31, 11:04
Hmm. Its also interesting that folks like yourself are quick to condemn that post without knowing whether or not a problem actually exists.

I am the person that posted that message on AudioAsylum, and ensuring that the player options were properly set was the very first thing I did. To ensure that nothing unexpected was going on I also monitored the Windows task manager to watched for lame.exe and/or flac.exe processes. After initial setup, the only thing I changed was the server settings under File Types to cause the server to stream FLAC or PCM. Everything else remained exactly as is. In neither case was lame being executed.

I cannot explain the differences, nor am I attempting to condemn the product. I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but noted that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two types of streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information would be taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks. I cannot explain the reasons for the differences I hear, merely that they do indeed exist.

Ken

Jason wrote:
> Wonderful that an "audiophile" is so quick to condemn the product on a
> discussion board when he obviously has something hosed in his setup.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
>>[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of
>>Vidur Apparao
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:26 PM
>>To: Slim Devices Discussion
>>Subject: [slim] Squeezebox 2 audio quality.
>>
>>Mike Reeve wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun <tiefenbruns@...> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
>>>>DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the CD
>>>>player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>Just in case you are running a wireless set up ...
>>>... have you checked (and I apologise if you have already
>>
>>done so) that
>>
>>>you have set Player Settings > Bitrate Limiting to No Limit?
>>>
>>>[Recall that it defaults to transcoding to 320Kbps MP3 ...
>>>... I forgot this once after changing my set up and had a moment of
>>>shock/panic until I remembered :-O]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>My suggestion exactly. We've done bit-accuracy testing with
>>FLAC, so it's definitely not in the decoder on the box. My
>>guess is that there's
>>MP3 transcoding going on.
>>
>>--Vidur
>>

vidurapparao
2005-03-31, 11:35
Ken,

Could you describe the quality differences you are hearing in the audio.
Phil Karn has reported "crunchy" sounds at FLAC startup
(http://lists.slimdevices.com/archives/discuss/2005-March/046948.html).
Is that what you're hearing?

I believe I have a handle on the problem that Phil reports. It does
depend on the type of connection and seems to be timing related. I'll be
posting a potential fix shortly.

--Vidur

Ken wrote:

> Hmm. Its also interesting that folks like yourself are quick to
> condemn that post without knowing whether or not a problem actually
> exists.
>
> I am the person that posted that message on AudioAsylum, and ensuring
> that the player options were properly set was the very first thing I
> did. To ensure that nothing unexpected was going on I also monitored
> the Windows task manager to watched for lame.exe and/or flac.exe
> processes. After initial setup, the only thing I changed was the
> server settings under File Types to cause the server to stream FLAC or
> PCM. Everything else remained exactly as is. In neither case was lame
> being executed.
>
> I cannot explain the differences, nor am I attempting to condemn the
> product. I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but
> noted that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two
> types of streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information
> would be taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks. I cannot
> explain the reasons for the differences I hear, merely that they do
> indeed exist.
>
> Ken
>
> Jason wrote:
>
>> Wonderful that an "audiophile" is so quick to condemn the product on a
>> discussion board when he obviously has something hosed in his setup.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
>>> [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Vidur
>>> Apparao
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:26 PM
>>> To: Slim Devices Discussion
>>> Subject: [slim] Squeezebox 2 audio quality.
>>>
>>> Mike Reeve wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Natan & Nicki Tiefenbrun <tiefenbruns@...> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm hooking my SB up to a Linn
>>>>> DAC, and even with raw WAVs it doesn't sound half as good as the
>>>>> CD player with digital out, so I assume it's to do with the clocking.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Just in case you are running a wireless set up ...
>>>> ... have you checked (and I apologise if you have already
>>>
>>>
>>> done so) that
>>>
>>>> you have set Player Settings > Bitrate Limiting to No Limit?
>>>>
>>>> [Recall that it defaults to transcoding to 320Kbps MP3 ...
>>>> ... I forgot this once after changing my set up and had a moment of
>>>> shock/panic until I remembered :-O]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> My suggestion exactly. We've done bit-accuracy testing with FLAC, so
>>> it's definitely not in the decoder on the box. My guess is that there's
>>> MP3 transcoding going on.
>>>
>>> --Vidur
>>>

seanadams
2005-03-31, 12:35
> I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but noted
> that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two types of
> streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information would be
> taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks.

Ken,

This information is actually not helpful - you need to tell us what
you're hearing or give some measurements or a test case which
demonstrates an objective difference. Even a subjective listening test
would be helpful, but only if done scientifically and with double-blind
controls.

I've got s/pdif and analog audio analyzers, oscilloscopes, spectrum
analyzers, function generators, frequency counters, dozens of sets of
receivers and speakers to test with, and a pair of ears. Any problem
you can identify could be measured here, but you have to tell us what
it is.

Sean

Ken
2005-03-31, 13:36
Sean,

Let me first apologize for the post I made on AudioAsylum. I should have taken my thoughts here first and was unaware that it would cause a stir. I've asked the folks that run that forum to remove my post, and hopefully they will.

The sonic differences we heard are entirely subjective and not easily quantifiable, but were easily noticed by all of the folks in attendance. Terms such as 'boxy sounding' and 'compressed' were used, but there is no way to attach a measurable metric to this. I would like to be more specific if there are ways you can advise to do so. We were mostly just surprised that we heard any differences at all since our expectations were that flac vs PCM should yield identical results. That all said, I will take time this weekend to check through the system setup and make sure that the differences we hear aren't due to any other factors.

In the meantime, I've posted a retraction to my comment on AudioAsylum to hopefully alleviate any harm it may have done. I was naive to think that my comment would be taken in a smaller context and the result was certainly not my expectation.

Ken

Sean Adams wrote:
>
>> I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but noted
>> that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two types of
>> streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information would be
>> taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks.
>
>
> Ken,
>
> This information is actually not helpful - you need to tell us what
> you're hearing or give some measurements or a test case which
> demonstrates an objective difference. Even a subjective listening test
> would be helpful, but only if done scientifically and with double-blind
> controls.
>
> I've got s/pdif and analog audio analyzers, oscilloscopes, spectrum
> analyzers, function generators, frequency counters, dozens of sets of
> receivers and speakers to test with, and a pair of ears. Any problem you
> can identify could be measured here, but you have to tell us what it is.
>
> Sean

seanadams
2005-03-31, 13:47
Hey no problem at all.

We're taking sound quality and decode accuracy very seriously here!

If anyone finds a problem it goes straight to the top of my list. :)


On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:36 PM, Ken wrote:

> Sean,
>
> Let me first apologize for the post I made on AudioAsylum. I should
> have taken my thoughts here first and was unaware that it would cause
> a stir. I've asked the folks that run that forum to remove my post,
> and hopefully they will.
>
> The sonic differences we heard are entirely subjective and not easily
> quantifiable, but were easily noticed by all of the folks in
> attendance. Terms such as 'boxy sounding' and 'compressed' were used,
> but there is no way to attach a measurable metric to this. I would
> like to be more specific if there are ways you can advise to do so. We
> were mostly just surprised that we heard any differences at all since
> our expectations were that flac vs PCM should yield identical results.
> That all said, I will take time this weekend to check through the
> system setup and make sure that the differences we hear aren't due to
> any other factors.
>
> In the meantime, I've posted a retraction to my comment on AudioAsylum
> to hopefully alleviate any harm it may have done. I was naive to think
> that my comment would be taken in a smaller context and the result was
> certainly not my expectation.
>
> Ken
>
> Sean Adams wrote:
>>> I have and enjoy both my SB1 and the new SB2 I received, but noted
>>> that we could indeed hear audible differences between the two types
>>> of streaming. I was (and are still) hoping that this information
>>> would be taken constructively by the Slim Devices folks.
>> Ken,
>> This information is actually not helpful - you need to tell us what
>> you're hearing or give some measurements or a test case which
>> demonstrates an objective difference. Even a subjective listening
>> test would be helpful, but only if done scientifically and with
>> double-blind controls.
>> I've got s/pdif and analog audio analyzers, oscilloscopes, spectrum
>> analyzers, function generators, frequency counters, dozens of sets of
>> receivers and speakers to test with, and a pair of ears. Any problem
>> you can identify could be measured here, but you have to tell us what
>> it is.
>> Sean
>
>