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Doug Wise
2005-03-26, 17:43
What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent amplifier into the box.
That way, you would only need a network connection and speakers to have a stereo system.

Doug Wise
dougwise (AT) yahoo (DOT) com

Robert Wallace
2005-03-26, 18:53
Doug,

That's an good idea, but it's not really needed -- just get hold of a
nice set of powered speakers and you've got all you need.

Besides, I prefer to only pay for what I need - I really don't need to
buy another amp; certainly not one inside my music delivery device.

Robert

Doug Wise wrote:

>What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent amplifier into the box.
>That way, you would only need a network connection and speakers to have a stereo system.
>
>Doug Wise
>dougwise (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
>

thnmnt
2005-03-26, 19:09
on the sonos forums (www.sonos.com) one of the major requests is for a unit
*without* an amplifier. i'd rather have something i can integrate with my
existing system or just add powered speakers to if need be.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Wise" <dougwise (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 7:43 PM
Subject: [slim] New Item Request- Squeezebox with amplifier


> What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent
amplifier into the box.
> That way, you would only need a network connection and speakers to have a
stereo system.
>
> Doug Wise
> dougwise (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
>

JJ
2005-03-26, 21:39
I think it's an excellent idea - as a separate product. That way you
needn't pay for anything you don't want to buy.

I think Slim Devices has room (and a market) for a number of different
models of the SB2. I'd gladly pay a higher price for a model with
navigation controls in the form of buttons and dials. I'd also be more
than willing to pay extra for an upgraded chassis and power supply.

Instead of having a wired and wireless model of the SB2, I'd sugget that a
better approach would be to offer different models built around the same
processing core - say the current base model, a model with a built in
amplifier, a model with upgraded chassis, power supply and manual
controls - then make the wireless capability a user installable option in
the form of a wireless PCMCIA card or something similar.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Wallace" <rawallace (AT) comcast (DOT) net>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:53 PM
Subject: [slim] New Item Request- Squeezebox with amplifier


> Doug,
>
> That's an good idea, but it's not really needed -- just get hold of a
> nice set of powered speakers and you've got all you need.
>
> Besides, I prefer to only pay for what I need - I really don't need to
> buy another amp; certainly not one inside my music delivery device.
>
> Robert
>
> Doug Wise wrote:
>
>>What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent
>>amplifier into the box. That way, you would only need a network
>>connection and speakers to have a stereo system.

Karel Tromp
2005-03-27, 05:23
I would like to have a SB2 with a build-in drive (f.e. 250 Gb) where
all songs could be taken care off, a nice gnu-linux OS and a copple of
buttons and switches for operating the device. Oh, and a cachless
dvdrom drive would be nice encode my precious music. All of them
joyfully together in a black or silver box for 43 cm rack mount.


On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:39:05 -0700, JJ <jj (AT) zolx (DOT) com> wrote:
> I think it's an excellent idea - as a separate product. That way you
> needn't pay for anything you don't want to buy.
>
> I think Slim Devices has room (and a market) for a number of different
> models of the SB2. I'd gladly pay a higher price for a model with
> navigation controls in the form of buttons and dials. I'd also be more
> than willing to pay extra for an upgraded chassis and power supply.
>
> Instead of having a wired and wireless model of the SB2, I'd sugget that a
> better approach would be to offer different models built around the same
> processing core - say the current base model, a model with a built in
> amplifier, a model with upgraded chassis, power supply and manual
> controls - then make the wireless capability a user installable option in
> the form of a wireless PCMCIA card or something similar.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Wallace" <rawallace (AT) comcast (DOT) net>
> To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:53 PM
> Subject: [slim] New Item Request- Squeezebox with amplifier
>
> > Doug,
> >
> > That's an good idea, but it's not really needed -- just get hold of a
> > nice set of powered speakers and you've got all you need.
> >
> > Besides, I prefer to only pay for what I need - I really don't need to
> > buy another amp; certainly not one inside my music delivery device.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > Doug Wise wrote:
> >
> >>What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent
> >>amplifier into the box. That way, you would only need a network
> >>connection and speakers to have a stereo system.
>
>

Marc Sherman
2005-03-27, 07:29
Karel Tromp wrote:
> I would like to have a SB2 with a build-in drive (f.e. 250 Gb) where
> all songs could be taken care off, a nice gnu-linux OS and a copple of
> buttons and switches for operating the device. Oh, and a cachless
> dvdrom drive would be nice encode my precious music. All of them
> joyfully together in a black or silver box for 43 cm rack mount.

And a pony.

I can't believe I've been forced to do that again.

- Marc

Jack Coates
2005-03-27, 09:12
JJ wrote:
> I think it's an excellent idea - as a separate product. That way you
> needn't pay for anything you don't want to buy.
>
....

FWIW, I would buy an integrated amplifier model and use it with my
existing speakers if it were cheaper than buying a new SB and a set of
powered speakers. Aye, but there's the rub! Gotta pay for the amp
somewhere, right? So I might as well buy powered speakers and get a
speaker upgrade while I'm at it.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

Jack Coates
2005-03-27, 09:14
Marc Sherman wrote:
> Karel Tromp wrote:
>
>> I would like to have a SB2 with a build-in drive (f.e. 250 Gb) where
>> all songs could be taken care off, a nice gnu-linux OS and a copple of
>> buttons and switches for operating the device. Oh, and a cachless
>> dvdrom drive would be nice encode my precious music. All of them
>> joyfully together in a black or silver box for 43 cm rack mount.
>
>
> And a pony.
>
> I can't believe I've been forced to do that again.
>
> - Marc

I ain't opening another bugzilla item, sorry. If someone else wants to
open 918 again, more power to 'em.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

JJ
2005-03-27, 10:35
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Coates" <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 9:12 AM
Subject: [slim] New Item Request- Squeezebox with amplifier


> JJ wrote:
>> I think it's an excellent idea - as a separate product. That way you
>> needn't pay for anything you don't want to buy.
>>
> ...
>
> FWIW, I would buy an integrated amplifier model and use it with my
> existing speakers if it were cheaper than buying a new SB and a set of
> powered speakers. Aye, but there's the rub! Gotta pay for the amp
> somewhere, right? So I might as well buy powered speakers and get a
> speaker upgrade while I'm at it.


Not many folks used powered speakers, or would want to. And even fewer
add up the dollars and cents of a complete system and choose the one
that's $10 cheaper. Convenience, flexibility, style also play into the
buying decision.

My point isn't so much what _I'd_ like, as if I expected Slim to start up
the design and manufacturing process from one post, but that there's a
market for a variety of product models rather than producing just one
"lowest common denominator" product. Whether Slim Devices currently has
the resources to offer a more complete product line is a different
question.

JJ
2005-03-27, 22:45
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Gilmore" <onymous (AT) comcast (DOT) net>
To: <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: [slim] New Item Request- Squeezebox with amplifier


>> Not many folks used powered speakers, or would want to
>
> I totally disagree. Powered speakers are actually a great
> innovation. Matching amps with speakers has always been a black
> art; better that they do it at the factory - that way they can
> tailor the amp to the driver(s) and perform any EQ needed to get
> the best performance.
>
> Adding amplifiers to the Squeezebox seems completely
> unnecessary. It's like asking for a CD player with an amp -
> sure it's been done before but the vast majority just want the
> source component.

Of the hundreds of systems that I've listened to over the years, I can
count on one hand the number that utilized powered speakers. A few more
were said to be 'active', with an outboard amp/crossover - which is a bit
better approach to a manufacturer's desire to match amp and speaker, IMO.
There just aren't very many powered speakers sold because few people are
interested in them. People who care about sound quality want the
flexibility to find that perfect amp (or find the perfect speakers for the
amp they love). The mass market wouldn't know what to do with powered
speakers if you gave them away - because they have a 2 or 7.1 channel
receiver in their system.

Anyway, the kind of system that we're talking about - Squeezebox,
inexpensive amp, and speakers isn't an audiophile-class playback system -
not by a long shot, so amp/speaker matching isn't a consideration for the
intended market. It's a second or third system for the kitchen, or the
bedroom, or the garage. An amplified Squeezebox would just be a very
convenient, compact device to achieve this and would sound fine in 99% of
its intended applications.

Marc Sherman
2005-03-28, 09:51
Ken Gilmore wrote:
>
> I'm surely biased due to having had a pair of self-powered,
> biamped speakers running 24 hours a day for more than 19
> years! They are NAD model 8100, and for 15 of those years
> they played the same CD! I wore out 4 or 5 CD players in that
> location over the years. They get their current audio feed
> from a Slimp3.

Ok, I'm morbidly curious. What single CD have you been playing 24/7 for
the past 15 years?

- Marc

Jeff Moore
2005-03-28, 10:35
2005-03-26-19:43:13 Doug Wise:
> What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent amplifier into the box.
> That way, you would only need a network connection and speakers to have a stereo system.

I completely disagree. I want the Squeezebox to provide me with a
useful, usable interface to deliver a S/PDIF stream of my music to
remote corners of the house. I strongly prefer to choose the D/A,
amplifier and speaker solutions which please my ear. I have no
intrinsic objection to the analog line outs now provided, as long as the
digital outs are also there, since they make the device more universally
useful without greatly changing the device's power budget.

I like to see attention paid to reliability of the stream (apparently a
priority in the SB2) and low jitter (I don't know if the SB2 will be
different in this way). In terms of physical repackaging, the only
change I'd be particularly interested in seeing is a fairly gigantic
display -- I find I have to squint to make out what's going on with my
SB1 way across the bedroom.

Richard Elen
2005-03-28, 14:17
JJ wrote:
> ...People who care about sound quality want
> the flexibility to find that perfect amp (or find the perfect speakers
> for the amp they love). The mass market wouldn't know what to do with
> powered speakers if you gave them away - because they have a 2 or 7.1
> channel receiver in their system....

In the audiophile environment, these are certainly the facts of the
market, but the logic is highly flawed. The ideal approach is to start
with a digital signal from a surround processor, etc, and feed that to a
digital, active loudspeaker. This can offer first, crossovers in DSP
that would be impossible in analog, and you can also carry out all kinds
of innovative filtering and processing to handle speaker protection,
bass enhancement, etc etc. Then you run a D/A for each frequency band
and feed those signals to a set of amplifiers to handle each driver.
With the amps next to the drivers and directly coupled to them, you can
model their performance exactly and exert far more control. You can run
far lower powers and get louder results. In addition, you are looking at
a complete system that just needs a good digital input, rather than a
hodge-podge of bits from different manufacturers, all with their own
foibles and weirdnesses. You can't build a system from disparate bits by
trying to choose components that cancel out each others' wrongnesses and
hooking them together with exotic cables: it simply doesn't work -
although this is usually what people do. For more info, see
http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/DSP_speakers_scr.pdf

None of this seriously applies to the SB market however.

--Richard E

Simon Still
2005-03-29, 12:01
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:32:33 +0000 (GMT), Ken Gilmore
<onymous (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:
>
> I'm also using in 2 other locations the very excellent Aego2
> system from Acoustic Energy. The tiny satellites contain 1
> driver which is direct-coupled to the amp. The sat cabinets
> are an extremely heavy zinc alloy. The bass is handled by a
> sub with a 6x9 woofer. This system sounds fabulous and can
> rival a multi-thousand dollar component system.

I'm using a set of these in my kitchen connected to my server PC and
softsqueeze. Before anyone else splashes the cash whilst they're
undeniably impressive (especially for the money - <100 now) they have
a number of weaknesses. Actually, i'd say that they probably dont
sound as good as a 150 conventional amp and speaker system but then
you lose the convenience.

Midrange is 'iffy' (neither speaker is optimal for mid reproduction)
and the bass can thump with some music, even switched to minimum.
Listener positioning is crucial - too close to either the sub or sat's
and sound changes radically. From the sweet spot they do sound good
however, and they go impressively loud.

Simon Still
2005-03-29, 12:02
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:12:49 +0000 (GMT), Ken Gilmore
<onymous (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> I totally disagree. Powered speakers are actually a great
> innovation. Matching amps with speakers has always been a black
> art; better that they do it at the factory - that way they can
> tailor the amp to the driver(s) and perform any EQ needed to get
> the best performance.

I think powered speakers have come a long way. Notably the BBC's new
studio monitors are powered (they actually take a digital input). I
cant remember who makes them right now - Scandinavian IIRC.

Simon Still
2005-03-29, 12:02
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:12:49 +0000 (GMT), Ken Gilmore
<onymous (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> I totally disagree. Powered speakers are actually a great
> innovation. Matching amps with speakers has always been a black
> art; better that they do it at the factory - that way they can
> tailor the amp to the driver(s) and perform any EQ needed to get
> the best performance.

I think powered speakers have come a long way. Notably the BBC's new
studio monitors are powered (they actually take a digital input). I
cant remember who makes them right now - Scandinavian IIRC.

Jeff Moore
2005-03-29, 12:17
2005-03-28-00:12:49 Ken Gilmore:
> I totally disagree. Powered speakers are actually a great
> innovation. Matching amps with speakers has always been a black
> art; better that they do it at the factory - that way they can
> tailor the amp to the driver(s) and perform any EQ needed to get
> the best performance.

It's certainly an approach which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
While I haven't yet heard them myself, ATC's active speakers, for
example, have an excellent reputation.

http://www.atc.gb.net/

Skot Nelson
2005-03-30, 00:31
On Mar 29.2005, at 11:17, Jeff Moore wrote:

> ATC's active speakers, for
> example, have an excellent reputation.

This highlights the real key here: it's the speakers that matter.

I've got a 5 year old pair of powered logitech speakers, which are fine
for gaming but I don't particularly enjoy listening to music on them.
No problem with talk radio.

On the other hand, I used to sell a Bose system that cost $350 - this
is, incidentally, how much I paid for my Boston Acoustics SubSat 6
units about 10 years ago, in a very good deal. The Bose sounded very
very nice. I'd be happy to plug them into a squeezebox, but now we're
looking at a single device retailing for $500....I doubt many would
ship.
--
Skot Nelson
skot (AT) penguinstorm (DOT) com

Simon Oosthoek
2005-03-30, 01:37
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 04:43:13PM -0800, Doug Wise wrote:
> What would make the squeezebox even more cool is to integrate a decent amplifier into the box.
> That way, you would only need a network connection and speakers to have a stereo system.

After reading the discussion following this post, I'm wondering why Slim
doesn't offer an OEM component for audio unit builders to include in a
receiver type of unit? (Or do they?)

I think Slim should stay with their current focus on the technology, it's
what they do best, but there's probably a market for a component to be built
into an audio device. It would be nice if the SB-module could have some
interface for a PC like architecture, or bridging Ethernet ports (like the
SB2 has). It could be part of a multimedia PC or an audio component.

Cheers

Simon

PS, I don't have space for a pony ;-)