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Michael Peters
2005-03-22, 23:15
I just bought a flac album from Magnatune -
Elizabeth Wolff - Moments Musicaux

Here is what the file listing looks like (magnatune had spaces which I
replaced with _ as I can't stand spaces in a file name):


01-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Andantino-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
02-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Allegretto-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
03-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Andante_cantabile-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
04-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Presto-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
05-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Adagio_sostenuto-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
06-Sergei_Rachmaninoff_-_6_Moments_Musicaux_Op._16_-_Maestoso-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
07-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_3_Moments_Musicaux_Op._7_-_Allegramente-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
08-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_3_Moments_Musicaux_Op._7_-_Con_moto-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
09-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_3_Moments_Musicaux_Op._7_-_Tranquillo_e_semplice-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
10-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_4_Moments_Musicaux_Op._84_-_Con_moto-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
11-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_4_Moments_Musicaux_Op._84_-_Moderato_e_grazioso-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
12-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_4_Moments_Musicaux_Op._84_-_Maestoso-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac
13-Moritz_Moszkowski_-_4_Moments_Musicaux_Op._84_-_Animato_ma_non_troppo-Elizabeth_Wolff.flac

1-6 all have the same title set in the title field (Sergei
Rachmaninoff - 6 Moments)
7-9 all have the same title set in the title field (Moritz Moszkowski
- 3 Moments)
10-13 all have the same title set in the title field (Moritz
Moszkowski - 4 Moments)

Other than the track numbers of the sets being different, from the
sets there is no way to tell the tracks apart via the tags. The track
names however contain information not in the vorbis comments.

What would be the proper vorbis comment field to add to contain the
additional data?


--
http://mpeters.us/

Jason Voegele
2005-03-25, 05:55
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 01:15 am, Michael Peters wrote:
[snip]
> What would be the proper vorbis comment field to add to contain the
> additional data?

I recommend you read the following. It has very good general tagging
recommendations.

http://reactor-core.org/ogg-tagging.html

--
Jason Voegele


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ceejay
2005-04-16, 14:11
Apologies if I'm hijacking your thread but it had the closest match I could see...... I am right at the beginning of using this stuff, I'm starting to rip my music libary (with EAC, MAREO, FLAC and a bunch of other stuff) with the intention of building up a library to be served out by slimserver. For the pop/rock stuff, no problem.

But for my classical music (which is why I'm going lossless in the first place) I'm getting a real headache trying to work out how to organise, never mind tag, the music. Ok, so I use "artist" (really composer) as the top level... but then, what do you do with all those mixed composer CDs (a Ravel and a Rachmaninov piano concerto, perhaps)? How do you deal with the fact that you probably have multiple recordings of the more popular pieces? How do you persuade your library to deliver tracks 1-4 of that 8 track CD which correspond to what you really want, which is a particular symphony?

My head is spinning. Help much appreciated.

jth
2005-04-16, 18:03
You have to think outside the limitations of the CD to get the most benefit out of your slimserver, in my opinion.

I'll break up a classical CD into works (where a work is roughly any piece 10 minutes or longer) and split those into albums. The album tags look like this:

Piano Concerto No. 21 In C Major, K. 467 / Ashkenazy / Philharmonia O / London 443727

Piano Concerto No. 21 In C Major, K. 467 / Brendel / Marriner / ASMF / Philips 442269

Now all of the files from the CD(s) can go into one directory. So you have the benefits of browsing by tags for the individual works or browsing by directory for the original CD.

ceejay
2005-04-17, 13:20
Thanks, jth, I'm sure you're right. Its the contrast with the pop/rock world (for which most of these tools have been designed) which is important.

In that world, "album" is usually very important and mostly = "cd" (except for double albums and compilations!).

In the classical world, as you say, we need to break the link between album and cd for most tagging purposes. So, if I've got this right, I use the tags to map
artist = composer (eg mozart)
album = work (eg piano concerto 21 etc)
track = cd track, usually movement
... and then any other tags I can find for the rest. I'd be interested to know what other tags to use, and what tools people use to populate them. As I said earlier, my ripping process uses EAC/MAREO as the front end, and its working very well for the pop/rock stuff.

And, just to confirm my understanding, jth, you keep a CD together in a folder so you can get back to that structure should you need to?

Sounding good, just a few details to get hold of and I'll be off!

Thanks

jth
2005-04-17, 13:44
That's pretty much right, except I map TRACKNUMBER to the movement of the work, not the TRACKNUMBER of the CD. Although as long as the TRACKNUMBERs ascend properly, it's probably not an issue. Now there are quite a few tags available for classical music, but the slimserver doesn't support many of them. Here's the compromise I use for tagging classical:

id3v2:
TPE1 (Lead performer(s)/Soloist(s)): Marin Marais
TALB (Album/Movie/Show title): Suite In D Major (Pièces De Violes, 3me Livre 1711) / Spectre De La Rose / Naxos 553081
TIT2 (Title/songname/content description): Prélude
COMM (Comments): ()[]: uberstd 3.90.3 mp3gain
TCON (Content type): Classical (32)
TYER (Year): 1994
TRCK (Track number/Position in set): 1
TSSE (Software/Hardware and settings used for encoding): LAME v3.90.3
TCOM (Composer): Marin Marais
TPE2 (Band/orchestra/accompaniment): Spectre De La Rose

flac:
comments: 13
comment[0]: ARTIST=Marin Marais
comment[1]: TITLE=Prélude
comment[2]: ALBUM=Suite In D Major (Pièces De Violes, 3me Livre 1711) / Spectre De La Rose / Naxos 553081
comment[3]: DATE=1994
comment[4]: TRACKNUMBER=1
comment[5]: ENCODING=EAC 0.95pb5 / FLAC 1.1.2 -8
comment[6]: GENRE=Classical
comment[7]: COMPOSER=Marin Marais
comment[8]: BAND=Spectre De La Rose
comment[9]: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK=0.25112915
comment[10]: REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN=+8.12 dB
comment[11]: REPLAYGAIN_ALBUM_PEAK=0.42681885
comment[12]: REPLAYGAIN_ALBUM_GAIN=+5.65 dB

I also use EAC for ripping, but I wrote a wrapper script around the command line tools id3v2 and metaflac for tagging by hand. freedb/cddb aren't up to par for classical music, I'm afraid.

My directory structure is "composer/CD(s)". If it is a multi-disc album it all goes into the same directory. I use ascending track numbers for these multi-disc sets (i.e. CD1 trackno 1-23, CD2 trackno 24-58, etc) because again, I don't think it makes sense sticking to the limitations of CDs for these.

Good luck! Tagging classical music is a pain, but hopefully you'll only have to do it once. :)

pfarrell
2005-04-17, 19:33
On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 13:20 -0700, ceejay wrote:
> Thanks, jth, I'm sure you're right. Its the contrast with the pop/rock
> world (for which most of these tools have been designed) which is
> important.
>
> In the classical world, as you say, we need to break the link between
> album and cd for most tagging purposes.

This quickly raises a question that pushes the discussion out of just
"ripping" and into library management. In the pop world,
the album/cd binding is important, probably more so than anything else,
and so it is natural that the file structure of the tunes is
usually in something like
/genre/artist/album/song

But Genres are pretty weak as an idea, and subjective, and
more importantly, subject to change over time.

In classical music, the "most important" characteristic
depends on who is looking and when.
Sometimes I want all my Beethoven together, and sometimes all
my Symphonies, and other times, instrumentation is important (full
orchestra, chamber group, orchestral work transcribed for piano, or
vice versa, etc.)

On of the major reason that SlimServer 6.0 uses a database
is to enable more rational library management. Using the
DBMS capabilities, you can segregate the physical storage
of the bit streams from the information about the songs
and look at it from lots of ways.

This is just begining. We will need tools
to manage the databases, add in data from
sources besides CDDB/freedb, etc.

It will probably take "forever" in internet time,
a year or two

Pat

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

John Stimson
2005-04-20, 14:45
What I am doing for now is treating multi-movement works as individual "albums" even though several concerti/symphonies come on a CD or set of CDs.

Artist: Composer ; Performer
Album: Work [catalog no.]
Title: Movement
Year: date of composition

For collections of similar 1-2 movement works (like The Well-Tempered Clavier) I keep them all together as one album.

I haven't really decided what to do with "best of" type collections, which are typically a mixture of individual pieces and multiple-movement works.

Ultimately I would like to use the proper full set of tags, so that Album and Artist can be used to file the collection of tracks, and the title of the work gets its own tag, and the composer gets its own tage.

I would like to see Slimserver support the "Work title" and "composer" tags...and not just by shuffling in the composers into the "browse by artist" list.

For "work title" support, I would like each multi-track piece of music to be treated as a single entity by the shuffle play routine. I'm sick of having "Sgt. Pepper" get cut off suddenly at the end rather than segueing into "With a Little Help From My Friends"...

John Stimson
2006-02-08, 14:23
I've researched this a bit more, and have come up with a tagging scheme that I think makes sense. I'd like to get a little discussion of this before I submit my ideas as feature requests.

From the ID3v4 specification, these are the tags that are needed or desired:

TALB: title of the CD/album the work is on
TIT1: opus/work title for multi-part compositions (optional)
TIT2: movement or song title

TRCK: should be the track position on the CD that the work is on (order within the opus is the same as order on the disc)

TCOM: Composer
TEXT: Lyricist

TPE1: soloist(s) or performer/band for popular music
TPE2: ensemble
TPE3: conductor
TPE4: remixing artist

TOPE: original artist when the song is a cover (not relevant to classical)

TKEY: key in which the music starts -- extremely optional ;)

TSOA: Album sort key
TSOP: Performer sort key
TSOT: Title sort key


Behaviors I would like to see from slimserver:
When the TIT1 field is present, have the option to treat TIT1 instead of TIT2 as the "song title" when shuffling or browsing.

Thus, an album that contained a 3-movement sonata along with a few 1-track inventions, would shuffle as

1. sonata
2. invention #1
3. invention #2
4. invention #3

instead of

1. sonata movement 1
2. sonata movement 2
3. sonata movement 3
4. invention #1
5. invention #2
6. invention #3

The latter method results in getting the movements separately and out of order in a shuffled playlist. Perhaps add another shuffle mode:
Shuffle by track -> Shuffle by opus -> Shuffle by album -> Don't shuffle


I would also like to browse by composer (TCOM) or by soloist/ensemble (TPE1 + TPE2). For the composer search, use TPE1 where TCOM is not present so that the browse list still includes all available tracks.


I would like slimserver to recognize the sort key tags TSOA, TSOP, TSOT if present

John Stimson
2006-02-08, 14:43
By the way, what is the list of tags that are currently recognized by slimserver? My FLAC library currently sports the tags

ARTIST
ALBUM
TITLE
DATE
TRACKNUMBER
GENRE

rather than the ID3v2 equivalents of
TPE1 (ARTIST)
TALB (ALBUM)
TIT2 (TITLE)
TRCK (TRACKNUMBER)

GENRE does not seem to be covered in the ID3v4 spec, and DATE could be one of three options: TDRL (release date), TDOR (original release date), or TDRC (recording date).

It seems like a tag for the composition date would be useful as well, perhaps TDOR could be used for that.

snarlydwarf
2006-02-08, 14:46
I would also like to browse by composer (TCOM) or by soloist/ensemble (TIT1 + TIT2). For the composer search, use TIT1 where TCOM is not present so that the browse list still includes all available tracks.


For id3v2 tags, Slimserver interprets them as:

TCOM - Composer
TPE2 - "Band"
TPE3 - Conductor

That looks close to what you have (though 'band' is much more pop-ish, unless you're talking Sousa or something). You can browse on these, but they're all lumped in with the TPE1's. This can be a bit messy especially if you have lots of multi-tags.

The addition, then would be to not just merge these fields into the contributor table, but to flag them for seperate browsing? I do believe there is a feature-request asking for that.

I'm not sure about using TIT1 for browse-by-composer-with-no-TCOM .. if you have any non-classical at all, TIT1 will be filled with song titles.



I would like slimserver to recognize the sort key tags TSOA, TSOP, TSOT if present

It does that already.

John Stimson
2006-02-08, 17:35
For id3v2 tags, Slimserver interprets them as:
TPE2 - "Band"
That's not the same as "artist", I hope. The ID3v2 spec indicates that TPE1 would correspond to the "ARTIST" tag when used for pop music.


You can browse on these, but they're all lumped in with the TPE1's. This can be a bit messy especially if you have lots of multi-tags.Yes! Thus the reason for my next suggestion.


The addition, then would be to not just merge these fields into the contributor table, but to flag them for seperate browsing? I do believe there is a feature-request asking for that.I saw that, although I think that feature request seems to be for browsing only TPE2, etc. That would pick out only the "Classical" music which have TPE2-4 fully populated. I'd like to include all my music in those types of searches by substituting TPE1 when the other tags are not present.

I suppose that I could make my own workaround by writing a script to copy the TPE1 data into TPE2-4 when those tags aren't already filled.


I'm not sure about using TIT1 for browse-by-composer-with-no-TCOM .. if you have any non-classical at all, TIT1 will be filled with song titles.Oops, I typed the wrong thing, I meant TPE1 and TPE2.

But...that brings up another thing. Isn't TIT2 the "song title"? The ID3v4 spec says that TIT1 is the "larger category of sounds".

ceejay
2006-02-08, 17:37
Fascinating to see this old thread revived .. especially to see myself in it, last April, right at the beginning of getting to grips with all of this!

John - since you've revived this - a couple of points if I may?

The first thing I'd say is that a discussion on tagging is only a small part of the story: much more important (and you have touched on it) is what you can do with the tags once you've got them. "Listener" (Bill) and I had a lengthy debate on this a few months ago (one or two others did join in!), the result of which was a series of enhancement requests (2696 - 2701 as I recall).

My second point is to wonder about your focus on ID3 tags... thats fine for MP3 files, but FLAC users will be using Vorbis tags, APE different again... this was actually one of the most difficult parts of working out the enhancement requests, and we weren't able to work out a full set of answers. Every tagging scheme is different, with no simple mapping from one to another. I guess this is what has tended to enforce the use of the lowest common denominator - artist/title/genre etc.

As Snarlydwarf has pointed out, Slim does read COMPOSER, CONDUCTOR and BAND, but doesn't make very good use of them.

As a minimum I'd like to see PERFORMER added (I did manage to work out a set of patches to do this) - but NB there isn't a good mapping for this in ID3: if you use TPE1 you've just used what other players are going to interpret as ARTIST, which will cause heap big confusion. But again, getting PERFORMER into the system isn't much good unless you can do meaningful Browse and Search, and I got stuck when trying to work this out for myself.

Ceejay.

snarlydwarf
2006-02-08, 19:18
That's not the same as "artist", I hope. The ID3v2 spec indicates that TPE1 would correspond to the "ARTIST" tag when used for pop music.

Yes, TPE1 = 'ARTIST' and TPE2 = 'BAND'. It's actually weirder in pop music than in classical... But it shows up in the web page as 'Band:' so that's why I used it. (The id3v2 spec says its for 'band/orchestra/acompaniment') Band sounds odd unless it's John Philip Sousa, though.

I'd think for a lot of classicial music the TPE1 would be empty (no prominant soloist), though certainly not all.



I suppose that I could make my own workaround by writing a script to copy the TPE1 data into TPE2-4 when those tags aren't already filled.


Ah, so you could have, in one list:
. The B-52's
. JS Bach
. Adrian Belew
?

Did you try the settings on the server for tossing Composer, Band/Orchestra, and Conductor into the general 'contributor' table?

(TPE4 isn't used right now, though I only have a few cases where that would be nice.)

I see things like the above when I browse artists. (Actually, I don't have the B52's and it seems I still have to fix a lot of sort-order tags... And I have 4 CD's that showed up in the mail today to rip and tag... I'll never catch up especially since I keep getting more and more anal with tags and even have snuck USLT tags into a few tracks.)

It's nice in some ways, but, then:
716 albums with 7310 songs by 566 artists.

Those 566 artists gets annoying sometimes especially since I have a bunch of Various Artists albums and even a bunch of tracks with more than one artist.



But...that brings up another thing. Isn't TIT2 the "song title"? The ID3v4 spec says that TIT1 is the "larger category of sounds".

Ah, yeah that was my typo. TIT1 is so vague I have no clue why that's even in the spec.... I pretend it doesn't exist, so I decremented the title fields.

Slimserver doesn't do anything with it, which is fine by me. I don't see any use for it that Genre doesn't already do... 'Weather - Hurricane'? Riiight.

John Stimson
2006-02-08, 21:47
The first thing I'd say is that a discussion on tagging is only a small part of the story: much more important (and you have touched on it) is what you can do with the tags once you've got them.Absolutely. My real interests lie in having shuffle work better for multi-part works (classical or not) and improving the browsing interface.


My second point is to wonder about your focus on ID3 tags... My exploration of the ID3 tag specs was an attempt to understand what tags were out there and how they were supposed to be used. I thought that maybe the FLAC/Vorbis tags were derived from ID3. I guess I'll have to study those as well, since I'm using FLAC and not MP3. I wondered why my FLAC tag identifiers did not match the ID3 identifiers. I thought maybe they were ID3v1 identifiers.


thats fine for MP3 files, but FLAC users will be using Vorbis tags, APE different again... this was actually one of the most difficult parts of working out the enhancement requests, and we weren't able to work out a full set of answers. Every tagging scheme is different, with no simple mapping from one to another.Well, that is frustrating. FLAC seems to support freeform tags, so I could just make up a field name and use it. For instance, if there's no FLAC tag that corresponds to the title of a multi-track piece of music, I could just tag the tracks with "OPUS=Symphony No. 9". I presume that slimserver could make use of the tag if the developers wanted to.


As a minimum I'd like to see PERFORMER added (I did manage to work out a set of patches to do this) - but NB there isn't a good mapping for this in ID3: if you use TPE1 you've just used what other players are going to interpret as ARTIST, which will cause heap big confusion.I'm not too concerned with what my other players come up with for ARTIST -- my iAudio and my car player are loaded with a random selection of music and are never used for browsing. But I suppose we want to make this work for as many people as possible, so maybe the ID3 people could be convinced that they need a separate PERFORMER field from TPE1. They sort of do, with the field for "musician credit list". Can you make up your own ID3v2 identifiers, like you can with FLAC?

John Stimson
2006-02-08, 22:08
I'd think for a lot of classicial music the TPE1 would be empty (no prominant soloist), though certainly not all.TPE1 is odd, because according to the spec it's for the "lead artist/performer/soloist/performing group". So if there's no featured soloist then it would fall back on the orchestra or the conductor. But there is no other field for the soloists like there is for the conductor and the performing group.




Ah, so you could have, in one list:
. The B-52's
. JS Bach
. Adrian Belew
?
Yes...if I browsed by "composer or artist". Or I could browse by "performer or artist" and get
. The B-52s
. Adrian Belew
. Ton Koopman
for the same set of music (Ton Koopman being the harpsichord player on the album of Bach fugues).

What I don't like to see is:
. Daniel Barenboim
. Ludwig van Beethoven
. Berlin Philharmonic
. Cake
. Dire Straits
. Yo-Yo Ma
. Itzhak Perlman
. Berlin Philharmonic

Where I only have 3 albums, and 6 out of the 8 entries come from the same classical album.


Did you try the settings on the server for tossing Composer, Band/Orchestra, and Conductor into the general 'contributor' table?I saw that and based on the description it seems to form a union of all the boxes you check, and you end up with a list like my last example above. If I wanted that kind of mish-mash, I can achieve it more easily by including the soloist, composer, orchestra, and composer in the ARTIST field separated by a '/'.


TPE4 isn't used right now, though I only have a few cases where that would be nice.I have a few too, and in most of them I just include it in the song title. Or in the case of Panthalassa (Miles Davis remixed by Bill Laswell) I could just place it in the album title.


Slimserver doesn't do anything with it, which is fine by me. I don't see any use for it that Genre doesn't already do... 'Weather - Hurricane'? Riiight.Well, my thought was to co-opt it for use as the overall title for multi-track works like symphonies, sonatas, or Rush's "2112".

pfarrell
2006-02-08, 22:11
John Stimson wrote:
> tags were out there and how they were supposed to be used. I thought
> that maybe the FLAC/Vorbis tags were derived from ID3. I guess I'll
> have to study those as well,

Only in the sense that the ideas of putting tag data in the file
along with the PCM bits is the same. The format and meaning and
descriptions are all different.

At least FLAC has a chance of doing Classical Music properly.
The ID3 v1 spec is hopeless.

Actually, all ID3 tagging is hopeless. There is no real
standard, no peer review.

> could just make up a field name and use it. For instance, if there's
> no FLAC tag that corresponds to the title of a multi-track piece of
> music, I could just tag the tracks with "OPUS=Symphony No. 9". I
> presume that slimserver could make use of the tag if the developers
> wanted to.

Of course, this is true with any tagging scheme.

> Can you make up
> your own ID3v2 identifiers, like you can with FLAC?

Definitely can do so in later ID3 Versions, I think there are
as many as ID3v4 now, The same problem is there. You can put the
tags in, but will any application software pay attention?

Since most of the people who write software for iPods and Winamp
and similar stuff are into rock, emo, punk, jungle, etc. than
romantic/baroque/etc. the support starts with what the young
folks like.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

ceejay
2006-02-09, 01:06
First up, I agree with Pat - at least with FLAC there is a chance of doing this right. There is a more-or-less agreed set of tags which covers most of what you'd need, so Slimserver could to be modified to make good use of them without breaking anything else.

John - if you are using FLAC then don't waste your time looking at ID3 tags! Their only relevance to the discussion is that any enhancement requests should at least say something about how they should be used.

And just to think for a moment about design objectives: in addition to functional stuff about being able to browse and search etc, there are also:

- should stick to established standards whereever possible [therefore inventing new ID3 tags, or new uses for old ones, is not good!]

- should avoid creating tagged files which are going to screw up other players [same as first point, really]

Having spent some time staring at the ID3 tags and trying to work out how to map them, I'd sort of come to the conclusion that it's just too hard to come up with a definitive use of ID3 in this area.

From the slimserver development point of view, you then have three choices, I think:

(1) ignore ID3 tags beyond the basic ones already handled. If slimserver is extended to allow strong browsing and searching of classical music, you need to use Vorbis tags to be able to take full advantage of them. This works well for FLAC and OGG, and would be not too hard to handle for other file formats that allow free-form tag naming (APE?).

(2) make some slim-specific assumptions / standards / extensions to ID3 tagging so that there is a clean mapping. This is kind of where some of the earlier discussion is going, and is precisely the sort of thing that has got ID3 into the mess its in today. There's nothing to stop us doing this!

(3) Allow user-definable mapping of some (or even all! - probably OTT) of the ID3 tags. So a user individually could decide that, in his collection, TPE2 = PERFORMER. Or whatever. Prepopulated with some reasonable assumptions, this might be the best solution. Only snag would be the potential UI nightmare of trying to handle all the different ID3 variations!

Ceejay.

)p(
2006-02-09, 03:10
Because slimserver currently throws artist and album artist together in the contributor category I decided to fill them with the name I associate the album with. This way browse by artist is not such a big mess. Normally this means I have the composer name in both artist and album artist.

To be prepared for the future extension of slimserver I have been using the performer, conductor, composer and ensemble tags for the specific roles.

I hope at least we will be able to browse like this:
select genre > select performer, conductor, composer, ensemble or album > select album

peter