PDA

View Full Version : More comments on MP3beamer



Michael Robertson
2005-02-28, 22:56
This is probably not the best place for an extensive discussion about
MP3beamer or Linspire, so I want to be judicious in my posts to this
list but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple of points:

First point:

> Also why would anyone buy this, I do not see what it does that
> Slimserver and EAC can not do?

Nothing, except be easier to set up and use. For some portion of
the market, that makes all the difference.

There are actually some meaningful features that MP3beamer has which
make it unique that go beyond easy setup and maintenance which we do
have. For example there is a sync program which allows someone to mirror
all the songs from MP3beamer onto a local machine. This is critical for
times when you don't have a fat (or sometimes ANY) net connection to
your music server. Before jumping on a plane you can sync your laptop
and it will have all your music for remote playback for example.

For those people with iTunes they can access their music directly in
iTunes as if it were on their local computer which is quite handy.
MP3beamer supports the auto-discovery and streaming protocols of iTunes
which makes it work as well as another iTunes client.

Also for the 10MM iPod owners they can load their ipods with entire
library of songs from MP3beamer. These are a few of the significant
features and there are screenshots and video demonstrations of all of
these on MP3beamer at:
See: http://www.mp3beamer.com/screenshots.html

Some people may find these features valuable and others may not. Choice
is good. We also think it's ok to charge a fair price for software. Some
may disagree, that's ok.

As for the for comment that Linspire doesn't do anything for open source
I hope you will allow me a couple sentences in our defense. I would
politely refer you to http://www.linspire.com/opensource. We have given
millions of dollars to open source initiatives. This is real money that
I have personally written checks for. Multiple times we have helped some
teams make payroll so they can continue their important work on key open
source initiatives. We have also directly championed what we think are
critical categories such as:
VOIP - www.phonegaim.com
HTML WYSIWYG editor - Nvu.com
Mozilla browser and email
Music manager - Lsongs
Photo manager - Lphoto
etc.
Plus we're trying to push desktop Linux into mainstream distribution
(CompUSA, Bestbuy, Frys, etc) which takes substantial investment. We
understand that our goals and focus may not be consistent with other
very technically minded people. But I do believe if anyone is judging
Linspire as a good net/open source citizen and looks at the facts they
will come to a positive conclusion.

If anyone has other comments or questions about Linspire, please email
me off list at michael (AT) linspire (DOT) com so as to not clog this mailing list
with irrelevant messages and I'll do my best to respond.

-- MR

Tim Morley
2005-03-01, 03:18
Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php

OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.

So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver and it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you added it to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds to the cost!) so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could not find my slimp3.

I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be easy I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help through chat rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have been done in windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying to help me alter configuration files etc, still no luck.

Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows? Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is not user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing too is that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you know there is an update, just wont let you have it!

I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one machine in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to work I have just given up completely.
You may think that I am a total novice; not so.

Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?



Now as for Slimserver. UNBEATABLE!

I have the older slimp3 unit at home, and even though the new squeezeboxes with graphic display are out I still love my "slimpy".
Everyone who has seen it wants one!
The interface is excellent, even more so when you considor that I am navigating 3000+ tracks easily through a 2x16 display, also the integration now of the shoutcast radio etc is great.

Big up yourselves SlimDevices!

Tim

UK

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Robertson
To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 5:56 AM
Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


This is probably not the best place for an extensive discussion about MP3beamer or Linspire, so I want to be judicious in my posts to this list but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple of points:

First point:

Also why would anyone buy this, I do not see what it does that Slimserver and EAC can not do?

Nothing, except be easier to set up and use. For some portion of the market, that makes all the difference.

There are actually some meaningful features that MP3beamer has which make it unique that go beyond easy setup and maintenance which we do have. For example there is a sync program which allows someone to mirror all the songs from MP3beamer onto a local machine. This is critical for times when you don't have a fat (or sometimes ANY) net connection to your music server. Before jumping on a plane you can sync your laptop and it will have all your music for remote playback for example.

For those people with iTunes they can access their music directly in iTunes as if it were on their local computer which is quite handy. MP3beamer supports the auto-discovery and streaming protocols of iTunes which makes it work as well as another iTunes client.

Also for the 10MM iPod owners they can load their ipods with entire library of songs from MP3beamer. These are a few of the significant features and there are screenshots and video demonstrations of all of these on MP3beamer at:
See: http://www.mp3beamer.com/screenshots.html

Some people may find these features valuable and others may not. Choice is good. We also think it's ok to charge a fair price for software. Some may disagree, that's ok.

As for the for comment that Linspire doesn't do anything for open source I hope you will allow me a couple sentences in our defense. I would politely refer you to http://www.linspire.com/opensource. We have given millions of dollars to open source initiatives. This is real money that I have personally written checks for. Multiple times we have helped some teams make payroll so they can continue their important work on key open source initiatives. We have also directly championed what we think are critical categories such as:
VOIP - www.phonegaim.com
HTML WYSIWYG editor - Nvu.com
Mozilla browser and email
Music manager - Lsongs
Photo manager - Lphoto
etc.
Plus we're trying to push desktop Linux into mainstream distribution (CompUSA, Bestbuy, Frys, etc) which takes substantial investment. We understand that our goals and focus may not be consistent with other very technically minded people. But I do believe if anyone is judging Linspire as a good net/open source citizen and looks at the facts they will come to a positive conclusion.

If anyone has other comments or questions about Linspire, please email me off list at michael (AT) linspire (DOT) com so as to not clog this mailing list with irrelevant messages and I'll do my best to respond.

-- MR



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avi Schwartz
2005-03-01, 07:37
Tim Morley wrote:

> Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
> http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php
>
> OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my
> Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.
>
> So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver
> and it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you
> added it to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds
> to the cost!) so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could
> not find my slimp3.
>
> I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be
> easy I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help
> through chat rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have
> been done in windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying
> to help me alter configuration files etc, still no luck.
>
> Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows?
> Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is
> not user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing
> too is that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you
> know there is an update, just wont let you have it!
>
> I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one
> machine in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to
> work I have just given up completely.
> You may think that I am a total novice; not so.
>
> Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?

I don't understand why are you turning this thread to an attack on
Michael Robertson and Linspire. Michael Robertson was kind enough to
get on this list to explain the relationship between the mp3streamer and
the slimserver when questions were asked. He didn't have to, and I
don't know many CEOs that would have done so. Discuss the squeezebox
benefits vs. the mp3streamer as much as you want but you don't have to
turn this to a personal attack on Mr. Robertson nor to a discussion on
Linspire which you can take to the Linspire discussion groups.

Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora
and Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses. All take time to get
used to, but Linspire is probably one of the easiest for a Linux
newcomer to grasp. It is probably not the ideal OS for the Linux guru
that wants to tweak their OS to death. There is nothing wrong with that.

Avi

Kevin O. Lepard
2005-03-01, 09:34
>Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
><http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php>http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php

I think it was quite clear from his post who he was.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard
kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Tim Morley
2005-03-01, 14:37
----- Original Message -----
From: "Avi Schwartz" <slim (AT) cfftechnologies (DOT) com>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


> Tim Morley wrote:
>
>> Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
>> http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php
>> OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my
>> Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.
>> So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver and
>> it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you added it
>> to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds to the cost!)
>> so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could not find my slimp3.
>> I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be easy
>> I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help through chat
>> rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have been done in
>> windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying to help me alter
>> configuration files etc, still no luck.
>> Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows?
>> Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is not
>> user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing too is
>> that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you know
>> there is an update, just wont let you have it!
>> I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one machine
>> in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to work I
>> have just given up completely.
>> You may think that I am a total novice; not so.
>> Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?
>
> I don't understand why are you turning this thread to an attack on Michael
> Robertson and Linspire. Michael Robertson was kind enough to get on this
> list to explain the relationship between the mp3streamer and the
> slimserver when questions were asked. He didn't have to, and I don't know
> many CEOs that would have done so. Discuss the squeezebox benefits vs.
> the mp3streamer as much as you want but you don't have to turn this to a
> personal attack on Mr. Robertson nor to a discussion on Linspire which you
> can take to the Linspire discussion groups.
>
> Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora and
> Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses. All take time to get used
> to, but Linspire is probably one of the easiest for a Linux newcomer to
> grasp. It is probably not the ideal OS for the Linux guru that wants to
> tweak their OS to death. There is nothing wrong with that.
>
> Avi
>
>
>

Phil Karn
2005-03-02, 01:58
Avi Schwartz wrote:

>
> Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora
> and Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses.

Exactly. There's plenty of room in the open source world for everybody.
I'm also not in Linspire's target audience (I've been running and
developing with UNIX, BSD and Debian for many years) but I very much
appreciate that an entrepreneur like Michael believes so strongly in the
value and potential of open source that he'll commit the substantial
resources to directly take on Microsoft in places like Walmart. That's
something I know I could never do.

Similarly, I see nothing but good in ensuring that the most diverse
range possible of open-source-based media players is widely available to
the public. The recording industry probably wouldn't mind at all if
devices as open and flexible as the Squeezebox were outlawed, so we need
all the friends we can get to help protect our fair use rights. (I wish
there was a Squeezebox/Slimserver for video so I could do the same thing
with our DVDs that I've done with our CDs, but unfortunately we've
already lost *that* battle.) The only way we even have a prayer of
countering the RIAA's cash-laden influence in Congress is to show them
many millions of happy, law-abiding users of open media players of all
kinds. Piracy gets all the attention, but there are an awful lot of us
who do pay for our music and simply want to be left alone to listen to
it with devices of our own choosing.

Don't ever forget who our *real* opponents are: MPAA, RIAA, Microsoft
and others who would happily destroy fair use rights and open source and
encumber all media in DRM that can only be played in "authorized"
devices from monopoly manufacturers at prices and under terms dictated
solely by them.

All that said, I do have one small request for Michael. I haven't seen
the manual for the MP3Beamer so I don't know how you credit to the open
source projects that you use. But please do keep in mind that since so
many open source developers are volunteers, their *only* reward consists
of public recognition for their contributions. I'd be happy to have you
use an open source project to which I've contributed as long as you
simply acknowledge that project in your documentation.

--Phil

Marc Sherman
2005-03-02, 06:29
Phil Karn wrote:
>
> All that said, I do have one small request for Michael. I haven't seen
> the manual for the MP3Beamer so I don't know how you credit to the open
> source projects that you use. But please do keep in mind that since so
> many open source developers are volunteers, their *only* reward consists
> of public recognition for their contributions. I'd be happy to have you
> use an open source project to which I've contributed as long as you
> simply acknowledge that project in your documentation.

In that case, be sure to use a license that correctly states your
requirements. The GPL is not such a license (unless, of course, you
consider your copyright statement to be adequate notice) [1]. By
releasing code under the GPL, you're _explicitly_ saying that the
copyright notice is _all_ the credit you require. You can't then change
your mind and add further restrictions in a random mailing list post.

The old 4 clause BSD license, with the commonly known "obnoxious
advertising clause", seems to fit the bill for the kind of license
you're looking for. It's important to note that this license is not GPL
compatible, so you can't contribute code to GPL projects such as
Slimserver under it.

[1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IWantCredit

- Marc

Phil Karn
2005-03-03, 01:10
Marc Sherman wrote:
>
> In that case, be sure to use a license that correctly states your
> requirements. The GPL is not such a license (unless, of course, you
> consider your copyright statement to be adequate notice) [1]. By
> releasing code under the GPL, you're _explicitly_ saying that the
> copyright notice is _all_ the credit you require. You can't then change
> your mind and add further restrictions in a random mailing list post.

Well, the copyright notice may well constitute sufficient
acknowledgement, especially if my package is one of dozens that make up
the derivative product. I'm certainly not going to insist on a whole
paragraph for one minor library function, for example.

While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
matter of professional courtesy and good will. I think that would be
especially appropriate if one particular GPL package were to make up the
bulk of the derivative work, as appears to be the case with Slimserver
and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor to such a package, I know I'd be
more inclined to provide a little free technical assistance to someone
willing to go beyond the letter of the agreement.

--Phil

Marc Sherman
2005-03-03, 07:54
Phil Karn wrote:
>
> While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
> the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
> elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
> matter of professional courtesy and good will.

Yes, and you could ask for a pony, too. :)

> I think that would be especially appropriate if one particular GPL
> package were to make up the bulk of the derivative work, as appears
> to be the case with Slimserver and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor
> to such a package, I know I'd be more inclined to provide a little
> free technical assistance to someone willing to go beyond the letter
> of the agreement.

I don't think anyone's asking you for free technical support. In fact,
from what I've seen of MP3Beamer, Linspire is going well above and
beyond the call of duty to avoid sending their customers here for free
technical support, by rebranding the product. That's good open source
citizenship, if you ask me.

Look, Slim Devices is a corporation. Presumably they've got corporate
council, who advised them on the legal implications of the GPL. You
really should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they
knew what they were doing when they released Slimserver under the GPL.

- Marc

Tim Morley
2005-03-03, 16:07
So is MP3 Beamer slimserver? ie will it work with my slimp3?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Sherman" <msherman (AT) projectile (DOT) ca>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:54 PM
Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


> Phil Karn wrote:
>>
>> While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
>> the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
>> elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
>> matter of professional courtesy and good will.
>
> Yes, and you could ask for a pony, too. :)
>
>> I think that would be especially appropriate if one particular GPL
>> package were to make up the bulk of the derivative work, as appears
>> to be the case with Slimserver and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor
>> to such a package, I know I'd be more inclined to provide a little
>> free technical assistance to someone willing to go beyond the letter
>> of the agreement.
>
> I don't think anyone's asking you for free technical support. In fact,
> from what I've seen of MP3Beamer, Linspire is going well above and
> beyond the call of duty to avoid sending their customers here for free
> technical support, by rebranding the product. That's good open source
> citizenship, if you ask me.
>
> Look, Slim Devices is a corporation. Presumably they've got corporate
> council, who advised them on the legal implications of the GPL. You
> really should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they
> knew what they were doing when they released Slimserver under the GPL.
>
> - Marc
>

Aaron Zinck
2005-03-03, 16:38
"Jason" wrote
> If you read back through the thread you will see that the MP3Beamer
creator
> claims they tried to work with Slim Devices, but Slim was not interested
in
> working with them.
>
> Quite understandable if they are working their butts off on Slimserver 6
and
> new hardware.

But you'll also see that it does work with a squeezebox as he mentions in
this post:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/gforum.cgi?post=34018#34018

....which also means it'll work with a slimp3