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  • Michael Robertson

    More comments on MP3beamer

    This is probably not the best place for an extensive discussion about
    MP3beamer or Linspire, so I want to be judicious in my posts to this
    list but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple of points:

    First point:

    > Also why would anyone buy this, I do not see what it does that
    > Slimserver and EAC can not do?


    Nothing, except be easier to set up and use. For some portion of
    the market, that makes all the difference.

    There are actually some meaningful features that MP3beamer has which
    make it unique that go beyond easy setup and maintenance which we do
    have. For example there is a sync program which allows someone to mirror
    all the songs from MP3beamer onto a local machine. This is critical for
    times when you don't have a fat (or sometimes ANY) net connection to
    your music server. Before jumping on a plane you can sync your laptop
    and it will have all your music for remote playback for example.

    For those people with iTunes they can access their music directly in
    iTunes as if it were on their local computer which is quite handy.
    MP3beamer supports the auto-discovery and streaming protocols of iTunes
    which makes it work as well as another iTunes client.

    Also for the 10MM iPod owners they can load their ipods with entire
    library of songs from MP3beamer. These are a few of the significant
    features and there are screenshots and video demonstrations of all of
    these on MP3beamer at:
    See: http://www.mp3beamer.com/screenshots.html

    Some people may find these features valuable and others may not. Choice
    is good. We also think it's ok to charge a fair price for software. Some
    may disagree, that's ok.

    As for the for comment that Linspire doesn't do anything for open source
    I hope you will allow me a couple sentences in our defense. I would
    politely refer you to http://www.linspire.com/opensource. We have given
    millions of dollars to open source initiatives. This is real money that
    I have personally written checks for. Multiple times we have helped some
    teams make payroll so they can continue their important work on key open
    source initiatives. We have also directly championed what we think are
    critical categories such as:
    VOIP - www.phonegaim.com
    HTML WYSIWYG editor - Nvu.com
    Mozilla browser and email
    Music manager - Lsongs
    Photo manager - Lphoto
    etc.
    Plus we're trying to push desktop Linux into mainstream distribution
    (CompUSA, Bestbuy, Frys, etc) which takes substantial investment. We
    understand that our goals and focus may not be consistent with other
    very technically minded people. But I do believe if anyone is judging
    Linspire as a good net/open source citizen and looks at the facts they
    will come to a positive conclusion.

    If anyone has other comments or questions about Linspire, please email
    me off list at michael (AT) linspire (DOT) com so as to not clog this mailing list
    with irrelevant messages and I'll do my best to respond.

    -- MR
  • Tim Morley

    #2
    More comments on MP3beamer

    Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
    青汁選びに悩んでいる人は少なくありません。もし商品を探すのに行き詰ってしまったら体験談や口コミを参考にして比較するのも1つの手段です。ここでは、そんな時に役立つランキングを発表します。


    OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.

    So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver and it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you added it to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds to the cost!) so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could not find my slimp3.

    I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be easy I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help through chat rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have been done in windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying to help me alter configuration files etc, still no luck.

    Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows? Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is not user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing too is that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you know there is an update, just wont let you have it!

    I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one machine in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to work I have just given up completely.
    You may think that I am a total novice; not so.

    Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?



    Now as for Slimserver. UNBEATABLE!

    I have the older slimp3 unit at home, and even though the new squeezeboxes with graphic display are out I still love my "slimpy".
    Everyone who has seen it wants one!
    The interface is excellent, even more so when you considor that I am navigating 3000+ tracks easily through a 2x16 display, also the integration now of the shoutcast radio etc is great.

    Big up yourselves SlimDevices!

    Tim

    UK

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Michael Robertson
    To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
    Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 5:56 AM
    Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


    This is probably not the best place for an extensive discussion about MP3beamer or Linspire, so I want to be judicious in my posts to this list but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple of points:

    First point:

    Also why would anyone buy this, I do not see what it does that Slimserver and EAC can not do?

    Nothing, except be easier to set up and use. For some portion of the market, that makes all the difference.

    There are actually some meaningful features that MP3beamer has which make it unique that go beyond easy setup and maintenance which we do have. For example there is a sync program which allows someone to mirror all the songs from MP3beamer onto a local machine. This is critical for times when you don't have a fat (or sometimes ANY) net connection to your music server. Before jumping on a plane you can sync your laptop and it will have all your music for remote playback for example.

    For those people with iTunes they can access their music directly in iTunes as if it were on their local computer which is quite handy. MP3beamer supports the auto-discovery and streaming protocols of iTunes which makes it work as well as another iTunes client.

    Also for the 10MM iPod owners they can load their ipods with entire library of songs from MP3beamer. These are a few of the significant features and there are screenshots and video demonstrations of all of these on MP3beamer at:
    See: http://www.mp3beamer.com/screenshots.html

    Some people may find these features valuable and others may not. Choice is good. We also think it's ok to charge a fair price for software. Some may disagree, that's ok.

    As for the for comment that Linspire doesn't do anything for open source I hope you will allow me a couple sentences in our defense. I would politely refer you to http://www.linspire.com/opensource. We have given millions of dollars to open source initiatives. This is real money that I have personally written checks for. Multiple times we have helped some teams make payroll so they can continue their important work on key open source initiatives. We have also directly championed what we think are critical categories such as:
    VOIP - www.phonegaim.com
    HTML WYSIWYG editor - Nvu.com
    Mozilla browser and email
    Music manager - Lsongs
    Photo manager - Lphoto
    etc.
    Plus we're trying to push desktop Linux into mainstream distribution (CompUSA, Bestbuy, Frys, etc) which takes substantial investment. We understand that our goals and focus may not be consistent with other very technically minded people. But I do believe if anyone is judging Linspire as a good net/open source citizen and looks at the facts they will come to a positive conclusion.

    If anyone has other comments or questions about Linspire, please email me off list at michael (AT) linspire (DOT) com so as to not clog this mailing list with irrelevant messages and I'll do my best to respond.

    -- MR



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Comment

    • Avi Schwartz

      #3
      More comments on MP3beamer

      Tim Morley wrote:

      > Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
      > http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php
      >
      > OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my
      > Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.
      >
      > So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver
      > and it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you
      > added it to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds
      > to the cost!) so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could
      > not find my slimp3.
      >
      > I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be
      > easy I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help
      > through chat rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have
      > been done in windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying
      > to help me alter configuration files etc, still no luck.
      >
      > Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows?
      > Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is
      > not user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing
      > too is that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you
      > know there is an update, just wont let you have it!
      >
      > I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one
      > machine in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to
      > work I have just given up completely.
      > You may think that I am a total novice; not so.
      >
      > Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?


      I don't understand why are you turning this thread to an attack on
      Michael Robertson and Linspire. Michael Robertson was kind enough to
      get on this list to explain the relationship between the mp3streamer and
      the slimserver when questions were asked. He didn't have to, and I
      don't know many CEOs that would have done so. Discuss the squeezebox
      benefits vs. the mp3streamer as much as you want but you don't have to
      turn this to a personal attack on Mr. Robertson nor to a discussion on
      Linspire which you can take to the Linspire discussion groups.

      Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora
      and Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses. All take time to get
      used to, but Linspire is probably one of the easiest for a Linux
      newcomer to grasp. It is probably not the ideal OS for the Linux guru
      that wants to tweak their OS to death. There is nothing wrong with that.

      Avi

      Comment

      • Kevin O. Lepard

        #4
        More comments on MP3beamer

        >Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
        ><http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php>http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php


        I think it was quite clear from his post who he was.

        Kevin
        --
        Kevin O. Lepard
        kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net

        Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

        Comment

        • Tim Morley

          #5
          More comments on MP3beamer

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Avi Schwartz" <slim (AT) cfftechnologies (DOT) com>
          To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 2:37 PM
          Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


          > Tim Morley wrote:
          >
          >> Bit sneaky that Michael, you do not state who you are!
          >> http://www.linspire.com/lindows_michaelsminutes.php
          >> OK, this linspire. I did try it out with the intention of running my
          >> Slimserver software on it as I could get a Linux version of it.
          >> So after eventually installing linspire I downloaded the Slimserver and
          >> it would not install; Linspire would not accept. Eventually you added it
          >> to your CNR warehouse (Linspire may be cheap, but this adds to the cost!)
          >> so I installed through this, and it ran, but it could not find my slimp3.
          >> I tried adding a new hard drive to the basic system, this should be easy
          >> I thought. Nope. After trying numerous times, getting help through chat
          >> rooms newsgroups et al, still no joy. This could have been done in
          >> windows no problem! Even had some good linux guys trying to help me alter
          >> configuration files etc, still no luck.
          >> Yet this Linspire is marketed as the easy replacement for windows?
          >> Almost everything has to be done through the "command line" this is not
          >> user freindly. Everything is tied into the CNR. One annoying thing too is
          >> that if you cancell your membership the software still lets you know
          >> there is an update, just wont let you have it!
          >> I was really looking forward to dumping Mr Gates on at least one machine
          >> in my house, but after spending many hours trying to get it to work I
          >> have just given up completely.
          >> You may think that I am a total novice; not so.
          >> Micheal (Mr Linspire) comments please?

          >
          > I don't understand why are you turning this thread to an attack on Michael
          > Robertson and Linspire. Michael Robertson was kind enough to get on this
          > list to explain the relationship between the mp3streamer and the
          > slimserver when questions were asked. He didn't have to, and I don't know
          > many CEOs that would have done so. Discuss the squeezebox benefits vs.
          > the mp3streamer as much as you want but you don't have to turn this to a
          > personal attack on Mr. Robertson nor to a discussion on Linspire which you
          > can take to the Linspire discussion groups.
          >
          > Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora and
          > Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses. All take time to get used
          > to, but Linspire is probably one of the easiest for a Linux newcomer to
          > grasp. It is probably not the ideal OS for the Linux guru that wants to
          > tweak their OS to death. There is nothing wrong with that.
          >
          > Avi
          >
          >
          >

          Comment

          • Phil Karn

            #6
            More comments on MP3beamer

            Avi Schwartz wrote:

            >
            > Over the years I used Linspire, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora
            > and Mac OS X. All have their pluses and minuses.


            Exactly. There's plenty of room in the open source world for everybody.
            I'm also not in Linspire's target audience (I've been running and
            developing with UNIX, BSD and Debian for many years) but I very much
            appreciate that an entrepreneur like Michael believes so strongly in the
            value and potential of open source that he'll commit the substantial
            resources to directly take on Microsoft in places like Walmart. That's
            something I know I could never do.

            Similarly, I see nothing but good in ensuring that the most diverse
            range possible of open-source-based media players is widely available to
            the public. The recording industry probably wouldn't mind at all if
            devices as open and flexible as the Squeezebox were outlawed, so we need
            all the friends we can get to help protect our fair use rights. (I wish
            there was a Squeezebox/Slimserver for video so I could do the same thing
            with our DVDs that I've done with our CDs, but unfortunately we've
            already lost *that* battle.) The only way we even have a prayer of
            countering the RIAA's cash-laden influence in Congress is to show them
            many millions of happy, law-abiding users of open media players of all
            kinds. Piracy gets all the attention, but there are an awful lot of us
            who do pay for our music and simply want to be left alone to listen to
            it with devices of our own choosing.

            Don't ever forget who our *real* opponents are: MPAA, RIAA, Microsoft
            and others who would happily destroy fair use rights and open source and
            encumber all media in DRM that can only be played in "authorized"
            devices from monopoly manufacturers at prices and under terms dictated
            solely by them.

            All that said, I do have one small request for Michael. I haven't seen
            the manual for the MP3Beamer so I don't know how you credit to the open
            source projects that you use. But please do keep in mind that since so
            many open source developers are volunteers, their *only* reward consists
            of public recognition for their contributions. I'd be happy to have you
            use an open source project to which I've contributed as long as you
            simply acknowledge that project in your documentation.

            --Phil

            Comment

            • Marc Sherman

              #7
              More comments on MP3beamer

              Phil Karn wrote:
              >
              > All that said, I do have one small request for Michael. I haven't seen
              > the manual for the MP3Beamer so I don't know how you credit to the open
              > source projects that you use. But please do keep in mind that since so
              > many open source developers are volunteers, their *only* reward consists
              > of public recognition for their contributions. I'd be happy to have you
              > use an open source project to which I've contributed as long as you
              > simply acknowledge that project in your documentation.


              In that case, be sure to use a license that correctly states your
              requirements. The GPL is not such a license (unless, of course, you
              consider your copyright statement to be adequate notice) [1]. By
              releasing code under the GPL, you're _explicitly_ saying that the
              copyright notice is _all_ the credit you require. You can't then change
              your mind and add further restrictions in a random mailing list post.

              The old 4 clause BSD license, with the commonly known "obnoxious
              advertising clause", seems to fit the bill for the kind of license
              you're looking for. It's important to note that this license is not GPL
              compatible, so you can't contribute code to GPL projects such as
              Slimserver under it.

              [1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IWantCredit

              - Marc

              Comment

              • Phil Karn

                #8
                More comments on MP3beamer

                Marc Sherman wrote:
                >
                > In that case, be sure to use a license that correctly states your
                > requirements. The GPL is not such a license (unless, of course, you
                > consider your copyright statement to be adequate notice) [1]. By
                > releasing code under the GPL, you're _explicitly_ saying that the
                > copyright notice is _all_ the credit you require. You can't then change
                > your mind and add further restrictions in a random mailing list post.


                Well, the copyright notice may well constitute sufficient
                acknowledgement, especially if my package is one of dozens that make up
                the derivative product. I'm certainly not going to insist on a whole
                paragraph for one minor library function, for example.

                While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
                the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
                elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
                matter of professional courtesy and good will. I think that would be
                especially appropriate if one particular GPL package were to make up the
                bulk of the derivative work, as appears to be the case with Slimserver
                and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor to such a package, I know I'd be
                more inclined to provide a little free technical assistance to someone
                willing to go beyond the letter of the agreement.

                --Phil

                Comment

                • Marc Sherman

                  #9
                  More comments on MP3beamer

                  Phil Karn wrote:
                  >
                  > While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
                  > the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
                  > elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
                  > matter of professional courtesy and good will.


                  Yes, and you could ask for a pony, too.

                  > I think that would be especially appropriate if one particular GPL
                  > package were to make up the bulk of the derivative work, as appears
                  > to be the case with Slimserver and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor
                  > to such a package, I know I'd be more inclined to provide a little
                  > free technical assistance to someone willing to go beyond the letter
                  > of the agreement.


                  I don't think anyone's asking you for free technical support. In fact,
                  from what I've seen of MP3Beamer, Linspire is going well above and
                  beyond the call of duty to avoid sending their customers here for free
                  technical support, by rebranding the product. That's good open source
                  citizenship, if you ask me.

                  Look, Slim Devices is a corporation. Presumably they've got corporate
                  council, who advised them on the legal implications of the GPL. You
                  really should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they
                  knew what they were doing when they released Slimserver under the GPL.

                  - Marc

                  Comment

                  • Tim Morley

                    #10
                    More comments on MP3beamer

                    So is MP3 Beamer slimserver? ie will it work with my slimp3?


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Marc Sherman" <msherman (AT) projectile (DOT) ca>
                    To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:54 PM
                    Subject: [slim] More comments on MP3beamer


                    > Phil Karn wrote:
                    >>
                    >> While the GPL may not explicitly *require* any acknowledgement beyond
                    >> the copyright statement, nothing says that you can't ask for a more
                    >> elaborate, voluntary credit in the back of a user manual as a simple
                    >> matter of professional courtesy and good will.

                    >
                    > Yes, and you could ask for a pony, too.
                    >
                    >> I think that would be especially appropriate if one particular GPL
                    >> package were to make up the bulk of the derivative work, as appears
                    >> to be the case with Slimserver and MP3Beamer. If I were a contributor
                    >> to such a package, I know I'd be more inclined to provide a little
                    >> free technical assistance to someone willing to go beyond the letter
                    >> of the agreement.

                    >
                    > I don't think anyone's asking you for free technical support. In fact,
                    > from what I've seen of MP3Beamer, Linspire is going well above and
                    > beyond the call of duty to avoid sending their customers here for free
                    > technical support, by rebranding the product. That's good open source
                    > citizenship, if you ask me.
                    >
                    > Look, Slim Devices is a corporation. Presumably they've got corporate
                    > council, who advised them on the legal implications of the GPL. You
                    > really should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they
                    > knew what they were doing when they released Slimserver under the GPL.
                    >
                    > - Marc
                    >

                    Comment

                    • Aaron Zinck

                      #11
                      More comments on MP3beamer

                      "Jason" wrote
                      > If you read back through the thread you will see that the MP3Beamer

                      creator
                      > claims they tried to work with Slim Devices, but Slim was not interested

                      in
                      > working with them.
                      >
                      > Quite understandable if they are working their butts off on Slimserver 6

                      and
                      > new hardware.


                      But you'll also see that it does work with a squeezebox as he mentions in
                      this post:


                      ....which also means it'll work with a slimp3

                      Comment

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