PDA

View Full Version : barely a clue,, Squeeze basics needed



skiroe
2019-05-04, 10:24
Hello all, Essentially have always listened to FM radio via analog equipment and move to the boonies require internet listening. Actually have had a couple of Grace tuners for some years now as alternative when out of town .. Only now have I noticed that even the Grace will show higher bit stream than MP3 when it is available. Ive tried 2 current production "tuners" 1 is actually network player.. and neither will stream higher than 128. Even the old Grace will stream a particular station I listen to at 192kbps.
So, question-- I have heard of Squeezebox for probably close to 15 yrs but never knew what they were .. all analog systems in the house.
Will Squeezebox let me choose higher bit stream for internet radio if that higher stream is available?
apparently,, a lot of these new production brands like Denon 800NE utilize 3rd party apps like "Tune in" which stream only at 128.
Also, anyone notice how Grace Solo tuner appears remarkably similar in chassis style to the Squeezebox?
to recap--im looking for a system that will enable me to choose higher bit stream if one does indeed exist. Apps that put together music playlists are not what I want. Simply want to access real FM stations in real time.
thanks for any help I can get .

skiroe
2019-05-05, 13:45
Being no responses to my question maybe I need to be more specific

I just need to know whether squeezebox when accessing an internet fm station the user is able to choose what bit stream they would like to use if in fact multiple streams are available from a particular station. There are stations that stream below a 100kbps and stations that stream above 300 even.
It would appear that most all the units out there these days are using 3rd party apps such as "tune in" which apparently is set up to stream internet radio no more than 128kbps. Even more baffling is reading the manual for many brands out there and the info regarding internet radio is simply--"access thousands of internet radio station" period. It would seem that most all the efforts have been directed in creating and selling pay for apps for hi res audio files. I have checked the Vtuner app site and they actually have a list of stations and what bit they are streaming at. Ah,, appears this app is available to manufacturers to install in their units. At least thats what it seems for the moment.

bpa
2019-05-05, 13:51
Being no responses to my question maybe I need to be more specific

I just need to know whether squeezebox when accessing an internet fm station the user is able to choose what bit stream they would like to use if in fact multiple streams are available from a particular station. There are stations that stream below a 100kbps and stations that stream above 300 even.
It would appear that most all the units out there these days are using 3rd party apps such as "tune in" which apparently is set up to stream internet radio no more than 128kbps. Even more baffling is reading the manual for many brands out there and the info regarding internet radio is simply--"access thousands of internet radio station" period. It would seem that most all the efforts have been directed in creating and selling pay for apps for hi res audio files. I have checked the Vtuner app site and they actually have a list of stations and what bit they are streaming at. So, seems like I may be finding a solution,, just dawned on me. Install this app in the Squeezebox. Is that possible? Have to look again. Might well be a pay for app.

The answer is not simple and you have given no examples of problem stations.

For basic http MP3 and AAC streaming - many station have multiple URLs - each with a different rate - it is a case of playing the right URL.

Some services only supply higher rate when access through their web or apps (i.e make sure you see advertising) - sometime these URLS may be found but depends on the station.

Some stations use newer protocol such as HLS and DASH which have multiple rates which can be chosen at a playing time - you'll need a LMS system as well as player and a plugin .

Some service have premium services which require login and maybe a paid subscription - again need LMS and a plugin.

Paul Webster
2019-05-05, 13:53
The default source for radio stations to LMS/Squeezeboxes is TuneIn.
I don't think that the user can directly influence which of the various stream URLs that TuneIn provides can be influenced (except for codec type).

However, a user can use other sources for stream URLs and they might well make the different bitrates selectable by using different station names.
You can also directly enter a stream URL to be played - and save it as a Favorite for re-use.

If you give an example of a few of the stations that you want to listen to then people will probably be able to tell you which rates they stream at by default with LMS and possibly the stream URL to force a request for highest available bitrate.

skiroe
2019-05-05, 15:17
appreciate very much the info. my minuscule knowledge on the subject results in my revealing little of what Im looking for. I felt the URL had something to do with it. Does Duet enable search by URL? Recently read about LMS and of course am overloaded.. What is it again?

I have been strictly analog all these years with only a foray into CD or computer played music aside of course analog FM via vintage high gang restored tuners .. rooftop antenna,, el al.. living in major metro area with some of the best FM available likely in the country.

Have since moved to the boonies and now have had to make do with internet version of favorite stations. One station I listen to a lot depending on genre.. KFJC since has enabled 192 bitrate Even my old discontinued Grace will stream at 192 yet this Denon Im about to send back will only steam 128 via Tune in app. Apparently thats it according to Denon support

What about Squeezebox being discontinued such as Duet,,etc. where does that leave firmware updates?

I assume that not all units in the market place will let you select a station by entering a URL.. I would have to guess how to do that.. Would seem possibly done somehow if a controller app for a device enables one to do that or interfacing with computer?

The station I mentioned not problematic but this all came to light when I noticed this Denon streamed it at only 128 but the Grace at 192...initially the Grace showed both rates available that since has ceased. I think the station was doing upgrades and now may only stream at 192

garym
2019-05-05, 15:29
I just tested this URL and it plays 192kbs on my various squeezeboxes.
http://netcast.kfjc.org/kfjc-192k-aac

You don't have to have LMS to play many stations you have URLs for (for example the one above). You can simply to to:
mysqueezebox.com
create account, go to FAVORITES and paste the URL into a FAVORITE. Then with a squeezebox player, you can connect to mysqueezebox.com (without LMS) and play that favorite.

Yes, all Squeezebox players are discontinued and there will be no more firmware updates. But all work well and there are developments with plugins, etc. to keep things working.

bpa
2019-05-05, 15:38
appreciate very much the info. my minuscule knowledge on the subject results in my revealing little of what Im looking for. I felt the URL had something to do with it. Does Duet enable search by URL? Recently read about LMS and of course am overloaded.. What is it again?
You need to do some reading or perhaps just load up LMS on a PC and a soft player (also on a PC) to get a "feel". Then if it meets your needs - implement (e.g. raspberry pi, chromecast enabled speaker) or bouy a real hardware ware player which can have better audio outputs.

SB players are dumb. They need a server to send data to them. The server can either be in the cloud through a service called mysqueezebox.com or a local LMS server running on a PC or perhaps something like a raspbery pi (a 30 credit card size computer - less is possible).



I have been strictly analog all these years with only a foray into CD or computer played music aside of course analog FM via vintage high gang restored tuners .. rooftop antenna,, el al.. living in major metro area with some of the best FM available likely in the country.

Have since moved to the boonies and now have had to make do with internet version of favorite stations. One station I listen to a lot depending on genre.. KFJC since has enabled 192 bitrate Even my old discontinued Grace will stream at 192 yet this Denon Im about to send back will only steam 128 via Tune in app. Apparently thats it according to Denon support

Tune-in are a broker /directory -users ask for an URL for station - they give it. There may be "better" URLS but Tune-in will just give a compatible one.

The problem may not be Denon - it may be the directory service.

Can you enter custom or favorite URLs into the Denon ? Below are the URLs for kFJC (as show here https://kfjc.org/listen/ )

192kbps AAC https://kfjc.org/listen/netcast/kfjc_192.m3u
128kbps MP3 https://kfjc.org/listen/netcast/kfjc_128.m3u
32kbps MP3 https://kfjc.org/listen/netcast/kfjc_32.m3u

If problem is with the Denon perhaps it cannot play AAC



What about Squeezebox being discontinued such as Duet,,etc. where does that leave firmware updates?
They have been discontinued in 2012 - 7 years ago. There have been no firmware updates since then. The intelligence is in the server LMS or mysqueezebox.com - it is updated by the community now. Mysqueezebox.com is provided by Logitech so in theory it can stop at any time.

bpa
2019-05-05, 15:51
How to add custom URL to Tune-in servuice used with Denon

https://denon-uk.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6012/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNTU3MDk2NjIyL2dlbi8xNTU3MDk2NjIyL3 NpZC9mVUlXU2ZGQ1hZZmtuSkhJdldtd003a1RfWXpRVmVZZkdH RHVuYUNVQldaS2U0WDY4MGxlbiU3RW1KQTFabSU3RW40cHBpcH A2VW5TY0ZlVEVMU1RyY05PUkJseXlHNGl4RWk0ckFlcVJESUY4 dUQwaU91NGVXSk4wYlp3JTIxJTIx

skiroe
2019-05-05, 16:58
thanks again for such good pertinent info. I am sending Denon back anyway as it is limited considering the cost. Does not even have digital out to use my own DAC.. Goes to show you though--Denon support didn't want to be bothered. Could of told me that URL could be loaded. Yes,, I need to read up more on it.. Gets a bit brain squeezing. Just missed a Duet on Ebay.. sold for 55.. Was watching in last 45 seconds and reluctant to pull the trigger. Just gets a bit overwhelming to have to set up a totally unfamiliar system with so much else going on around here .. Moving away from what has now become my home town after I leave.. losing what made it a good place to live.. Aside from the massive population density.. not to mention traffic. Oh well, 70's are long gone. Not to mention the 60's . :roll eyes:

BPA , would you like to elaborate on real hardware player,, ,, SB server based?

TimT
2019-05-05, 18:40
thanks again for such good pertinent info. I am sending Denon back anyway as it is limited considering the cost. Does not even have digital out to use my own DAC.. Goes to show you though--Denon support didn't want to be bothered. Could of told me that URL could be loaded. Yes,, I need to read up more on it.. Gets a bit brain squeezing. Just missed a Duet on Ebay.. sold for 55.. Was watching in last 45 seconds and reluctant to pull the trigger. Just gets a bit overwhelming to have to set up a totally unfamiliar system with so much else going on around here .. Moving away from what has now become my home town after I leave.. losing what made it a good place to live.. Aside from the massive population density.. not to mention traffic. Oh well, 70's are long gone. Not to mention the 60's . :roll eyes:

BPA , would you like to elaborate on real hardware player,, ,, SB server based?

I am not BPA, but if you are interested in a Raspberry Pi player, see this thread: https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?110533-Some-Rasberry-Pi-LMS-questions-for-a-complete-beginner

bpa
2019-05-05, 23:54
thanks again for such good pertinent info. I am sending Denon back anyway as it is limited considering the cost. Does not even have digital out to use my own DAC.. Goes to show you though--Denon support didn't want to be bothered. Could of told me that URL could be loaded. Yes,, I need to read up more on it.. Gets a bit brain squeezing. Just missed a Duet on Ebay.. sold for 55.. Was watching in last 45 seconds and reluctant to pull the trigger. Just gets a bit overwhelming to have to set up a totally unfamiliar system with so much else going on around here .. Moving away from what has now become my home town after I leave.. losing what made it a good place to live.. Aside from the massive population density.. not to mention traffic. Oh well, 70's are long gone. Not to mention the 60's . :roll eyes:

BPA , would you like to elaborate on real hardware player,, ,, SB server based?

Stop.
Do nothing.
Buy nothing.
Learn more of the issues and figure out what sort of setup'll you'll be comfortable setting up & maintaining.

Your skill/knowledge level in this area seems to be minimal and I think will either need a simple device or a lot of handholding/education as indicated by your problem with Denon:
(i) you were not able to articulate your need/problems to Denon support sufficient for them to understand. You want a simple solution and didn't persist adding custom URL.
(ii) you don't understand URLs and the necessity to find relevant URLs for your needs - KFJC unlike many station were published on station website.
(iii) you weren't able to find a relevant article on line which solves your problem once you found those URLs.
(iv) you didn't pass any remark about running a local LMS or testing on a PC - it seems buy a ready made box was your preferred solution.

I am not trying to be harsh - just trying to point out that most of today's solutions will not meet your immediate needs and you will becomes increasingly frustrated.

As an example, the Duet cannot play the KFJC AAC stream without a local LMS - so if you had bought it you would been unhappy as it won't play your desired station - and Logitech support for SB is non existent - this is a community based & supported system. So with the Duet you would have ended up with a two box solution and the need to setup a LMS, probably buy an app for a phone/tablet and then add a custom URL.

My advice.
1. At this point in time, Squeezebox system will not meet your need as I think it maybe too complex if all you want is a replacement for a FM-Tuner (I.e. single box connected to DAC/amp, network in, twist knob to play any station, make a selection, display and digital out)
2. If you have an Android phone/table look for a Chromecast audio (discontinued, use digital cable to connect) and use phone/tablet to play audio via Tune-in, browser or whatever app.
3. Grace Tuner should work but is discontinued and AFIACT no community support to extend and you'll still need to add a custom URL.

There are many users on this forums, lots of them were beginners many who have travelled this same path so with more knowledge of your setup, you home networking capability, your needs - their experience and advice will be shared.

That said, my belief to get the best solution for your needs, spend some time learning about the basics of network streams, URLs, formats. If you have PC, play around with these streams in the PC / Browser (e.g try out LMS/Squeezebox on Windows 10 install LMS and Squeezelite-X player) .

Although your immediate need is a FM Tuner replacement - a proper network streaming solution can provide better facilities such as metadata (realtime track info), Artwork/images , "Listen on Demand", Podcasts but you'll need to learn more about the streaming world.

garym
2019-05-06, 05:11
I second bpa's advice above. And if you do end up buying an actual squeezebox player, the DUET is the *not* the one I would recommend. You might note from my signature that I have lots of different squeezeboxes. I used to have a duet, but I gave it away. It would be the most confusing to setup and use for a new user. If I was recommending a player, I would be pushing the Squeezebox TOUCH. But again, you need to learn a bit more before jumping in.

kidstypike
2019-05-06, 07:25
I second bpa's advice above. And if you do end up buying an actual squeezebox player, the DUET is the *not* the one I would recommend. You might note from my signature that I have lots of different squeezeboxes. I used to have a duet, but I gave it away. It would be the most confusing to setup and use for a new user. If I was recommending a player, I would be pushing the Squeezebox TOUCH. But again, you need to learn a bit more before jumping in.

+1 everything here, but I sold my Duet. ;)

skiroe
2019-05-06, 11:32
checked out the tune in --requires pay for app in order to connect by URL ..
Interesting as Denon comes with tune in app but a cut rate version.

I take no offense BPA ,, appreciate the analysis and you are right on. Very little knowledge of what it would take.. Although I did try and make it clear to Denon exactly what I was trying to do. Unless Im mistaken it does appear one needs to buy the tune in app in order to have the ability to search by URL. actually the link posted above took me where I needed to go. Initially I thought that the HEOS app would have that function but taking a better look led me to get the tune in app only to find out free for 7 days only. I will likely get a one box solution. Best for now. Too much stuff to attend to here and not having fun doing it. house ownership overrated far as Im concerned. Then again I am 75 yrs old and bought my first house. Something for a much younger man in body.. Got the youth in my mind set but alas body is wearing out.

bpa
2019-05-06, 11:38
checked out the tune in --requires pay for app in order to connect by URL ..
Interesting as Denon comes with tune in app but a cut rate version.

I may be wrong but AFAICT from rreading the Denon DNP-800NE manual - you do not need to add a URL using Tune-in. You add the custom URL via your HEOS account and HEOS app.

edit

Look at this link
https://denon-uk.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6012/~/add-custom-radio-station-streaming-url-to-heos

edit 2:

I check my Android Tune-in app and I was able to add a custom url with standard account. No fee or premium.

skiroe
2019-05-06, 14:39
thats exactly what I tried. It seems to say you can use your HEOS,, but paying closer attention it says need tune in app to be able to add station by URL. downloaded tune in app from Apple store and free for 7 days and then 10 a month. Someone had complained in a review of the app that was not easy to cancel service. Have to go into apple account in order to cancel a pay for app. I figured it out and cancelled right away.

I don't know what that's about your free tune in app.. Checked to refresh memory. Tune in is the app being used by Denon but don't see a way to access it and referring back to what I said above --need to pay for app in order to enter URL.

Also, looking in manual again under internet radio ---indicates that AAC format available -- Kfjc uses the AAC 192 Ill get back to this later. Have to finish painting for the day.

Manul
2019-05-06, 22:46
I just had a look at the Tunein website and it looks like they offer free and paid premium accounts (more sports, no ads). Are you sure the app is not trying to talk you into signing up for premium and purposely obscuring the free option? AFAICT you should also be able to sign up for a free account on their website and set up your favorites there, so even if the app is pay-only that might be a way to get your station into your Denon yet. Good luck! And congratulation on the new house! :)

bpa
2019-05-07, 00:21
thats exactly what I tried. It seems to say you can use your HEOS,, but paying closer attention it says need tune in app to be able to add station by URL. downloaded tune in app from Apple store and free for 7 days and then 10 a month. Someone had complained in a review of the app that was not easy to cancel service. Have to go into apple account in order to cancel a pay for app. I figured it out and cancelled right away.

I don't know what that's about your free tune in app.. Checked to refresh memory. Tune in is the app being used by Denon but don't see a way to access it and referring back to what I said above --need to pay for app in order to enter URL.

Also, looking in manual again under internet radio ---indicates that AAC format available -- Kfjc uses the AAC 192 Ill get back to this later. Have to finish painting for the day.

Nowadays users have private streams. The ability to play a custom stream is considered to be a normal feature - it would be commercial suicide for a network streamer not to have or charge extra for this "feature".

This is not the right place for you to find out info on Tune-in, HEOS and Denon streamers - I'm sure there are better places.

Looking at how Tune-in and LMS works and hoping that Denon/HEOS follow a similar pattern. It is clumsy - the Tune-in App is used to manage Tune-in menu items that appear under the Tune-in menu in the HEOS app as long as the same Tune-in account is used..

1. Run Tune-in app on your phone. Make sure you login with the Tune-in account - this is a normal account not premium.
2. Search for a station (not kfjc), play a stream on the phone and save it as a Favorite to make sure you have a Favorite on your Tune-in account.
3. Go into Tune-in App Favorites menu and check you see the stream you just added.
4. In the Favorites menu - it shows the Favorites folders. Drag screen up to show the "add Custom URL" button - it is normally hidden
5. Add the kfjc 192 URL - make sure you know into which Favorites folder it has been saved
6. Go to Tune-in App home screen - and then go back into Favorites and check the 2 (step 2 and custom) are in Favorites

7. Leave Tune-In App.
8. Open Heos App - and go into the Tunein menu of Heos App.
9. Check Favorites under Tune-in
10. If both Favorites are not there - then check your are using same account for Tune-in on the HEOS app and the Tune-In APP in step 1.

edit:

The official site describing above
https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6897/~/adding-an-internet-radio-station-via-a-custom-url-to-the-heos-app


edit 2:

Further to an earlier point

I am sending Denon back anyway as it is limited considering the cost. Does not even have digital out to use my own DAC.
DNP-800NE has an optical digital out - are you sure you have a DNP-800NE otherwise we are talking about different products.