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dolodobendan
2019-02-24, 12:56
This has nothing to do with LMS, but maybe someone knows how to solve this problem, as it's digitized music related and I know it would really annoy some of you guys, too.

26816

That's the disc. I converted the disc to mp3 320k/48KHz and then copied the files to a SanDisk 32GB SD card. This card I put in my car's SD slot, where it's scanned. Now I select artist: "Vivaldi, Antonio" and then select the album: "Die vier Jahreszeiten (Max Richter) Test 3". The order in which the tracks are played is:

10 Autumn 3
11 Winter 1
12 Winter 2
13 Winter 3
8 Autumn 1
9 Autumn 2
1 Spring 0
2 Spring 1
3 Spring 2
4 Spring 3
5 Summer 1
6 Summer 2
7 Summer 3

Now I read somewhere that some players just play the files in the order in which they were copied onto the card. So I used some order exFAT order tool to order the files. It didn't change anything. I reformatted the card to NTFS and tried again, but to no avail. If I play the files using the folder path (skipping the inbuilt media player), the files are played in the correct order. But using the album browser or browse to the album via artist, the track order is wrong.

Maybe it's something stupid, but right know I have no idea what's causing this. Any ideas are appreciated.

Edit: I re-tagged the TRACK tag to feature a leading 0 for tracks 1 to 9, but it just made things worse.

d6jg
2019-02-24, 13:18
This is something that depends a lot on the media player implementation. Id have expected leading zeros to work but it could actually be that the media player sorts by track name. Try inserting 01 etc into the actual track title as well as the file name

dolodobendan
2019-02-24, 14:05
This is something that depends a lot on the media player implementation. Id have expected leading zeros to work but it could actually be that the media player sorts by track name. Try inserting 01 etc into the actual track title as well as the file name

The tracks are titled "$num(%track%,2) - %composer% - %work%". But yes, inserting the track number in the title is what I wanted to try next. But I don't think that this will make any difference, considering the leading 0 in the track number just created a new apparently random order. (And yes, shuffle is off.)

It really bothers me when I don't know why stuff happens.

dolodobendan
2019-02-24, 14:36
I changed the track title to include the track number (01. Spring 0, 02. Spring 1 etc.). I also duplicated the folder that holds the files, re-tagged album to "2. Test" and copied the files sequentially to the SD card.

The order is the same for both albums. The current flavor is:

10
01
11
02
13
03
04
05
06
07
08
09

:confused:

dolodobendan
2019-02-24, 15:29
I still cannot answer the why, but the how. It's the tag format. The (mp3) files were tagged with ID3v2.3 and ID3v1. I isolated the tags and created three folders: FLAC, ID3v1 and ID3v2.3 (and renamed the albums accordingly).

FLAC and ID3v1 were played in the correct order, while ID3v2.3 was not (still don't know how the "order" is created here).

As ID3v1 is no option (no Unicode), I will just use FLAC.

cliveb
2019-02-26, 23:16
I still cannot answer the why, but the how. It's the tag format. The (mp3) files were tagged with ID3v2.3 and ID3v1. I isolated the tags and created three folders: FLAC, ID3v1 and ID3v2.3 (and renamed the albums accordingly).

FLAC and ID3v1 were played in the correct order, while ID3v2.3 was not (still don't know how the "order" is created here).

As ID3v1 is no option (no Unicode), I will just use FLAC.
FLAC consumes a lot more space than MP3 so capacity of the card might become an issue.

Does your car media player support Ogg Vorbis (mine does)? It uses the same type of tags as FLAC, so the ordering should be ok. And it also supports gapless, which must surely be important to you if you're listening to a lot of classical.

dolodobendan
2019-02-27, 05:41
FLAC consumes a lot more space than MP3 so capacity of the card might become an issue.

Does your car media player support Ogg Vorbis (mine does)? It uses the same type of tags as FLAC, so the ordering should be ok. And it also supports gapless, which must surely be important to you if you're listening to a lot of classical.

Storage space is not an issue right now, but I could try Ogg Vorbis. I don't think the player supports gapless playback in any format, which, yes, annoys me. :p

cliveb
2019-02-27, 13:33
Storage space is not an issue right now, but I could try Ogg Vorbis. I don't think the player supports gapless playback in any format, which, yes, annoys me. :p
Well, if it doesn't do gapless playback of FLAC or Vorbis, then it doesn't support them, does it? Gapless playback is an intrinsic attribute of FLAC and Vorbis.

d6jg
2019-02-27, 14:36
I have a 1 year old high ish end networked amp that inexplicably doesnt do gapless!!
I have an 10 year old SB3 plugged into it which of course does.

dolodobendan
2019-02-27, 15:07
I have a 1 year old high ish end networked amp that inexplicably doesn’t do gapless!!
I have an 10 year old SB3 plugged into it which of course does.

Yes. And the car is no Lada, either. It astonishes me that ID3v2.3 doesn't seem to work correctly. And of course the missing gapless playback.


Well, if it doesn't do gapless playback of FLAC or Vorbis, then it doesn't support them, does it? Gapless playback is an intrinsic attribute of FLAC and Vorbis.

I haven't tested Vorbis yet. As on the one hand Unicode is supported (Chinese characters are displayed correctly), but on the other hand ID3v2.3 seems to make trouble, I wouldn't go so far as to make assumptions what's supported and what's not. You're probably right - but at this point, I'd rather test it.

cliveb
2019-02-28, 08:22
I haven't tested Vorbis yet. As on the one hand Unicode is supported (Chinese characters are displayed correctly), but on the other hand ID3v2.3 seems to make trouble, I wouldn't go so far as to make assumptions what's supported and what's not. You're probably right - but at this point, I'd rather test it.
I don't know what car you have, of course. Mine is a 2017 Skoda Fabia, and it has the Bolero radio.
I can confirm that it supports gapless playback of Vorbis, but not MP3 (even with the LAME tags for gapless).
My guess is that any VW group car would be the same.

dolodobendan
2019-02-28, 08:41
I don't know what car you have, of course. Mine is a 2017 Skoda Fabia, and it has the Bolero radio.
I can confirm that it supports gapless playback of Vorbis, but not MP3 (even with the LAME tags for gapless).
My guess is that any VW group car would be the same.

It's an Audi A6, but it's a year older. Maybe that's making a difference here. I haven't had the time to make any further test, though.

dolodobendan
2019-03-04, 06:45
Ogg Vorbis also works, but no gapless playback here either.

atrocity
2019-03-04, 11:36
I've given up on gapless for most non-LMS players. As someone who usually plays whole albums, my workaround is a Linux script that concatenates FLACs into a single file and then turns that into an MP3.

emalvick
2019-03-04, 14:04
Don't know what to tell you on the gapless playback issue. My newer car supports Android Auto, so now I can use an android app that supports gapless, and that solved my issue, which never could be sorted through the built in stereo in any car I've used.

But, I mostly wanted to write regarding the original sorting issue and id3.

I learned that many of the id3 format (v1, v2.3, v2.4) can conflict with each other. When I had a lot of mp3 files, I had all sorts of issues related to my files usually having both id3v1 and id3v2.3. In many cases the tags in each space were not in sync with each other causing all sorts of conflicts. Additionally, it wasn't unusual for a tag editor to only show one space. For instance, MP3Tag will tell you what tag formats you have, but it will only show the tags in one of the formats. This caused issues at one point where I would edit the id3v2.3 tags, but the id3v1 tags would not be edited. I never recognized errors because they were hidden in the id3v1 tags that I couldn't see. I think I only discovered it when I went to a command-line viewer that let me extract the metadata in all spaces.

Further, when files had id3v2.4 tags, I would get huge issues because a lot of software doesn't know how to use id3v2.4. Needless to say, it was a mess.

My solution at the time was remove all id3v1 tags from files and try my best to make it so all my mp3 files have id3v2.3 tags (removing v2.4 if I had them too). This eliminated many metadata errors I was having related to sorting and inconsistent tags. I'm not sure this is a solution for the OP (I think moving to ogg or other format is probably better), but I thought I would mention it because it is easy to miss and you might pull all your hair out trying to track down a hidden problem.

dolodobendan
2019-03-04, 14:52
Don't know what to tell you on the gapless playback issue. My newer car supports Android Auto, so now I can use an android app that supports gapless, and that solved my issue, which never could be sorted through the built in stereo in any car I've used.

That's more a workaround than a solution. But sure, this would work.



My solution at the time was remove all id3v1 tags from files and try my best to make it so all my mp3 files have id3v2.3 tags (removing v2.4 if I had them too). This eliminated many metadata errors I was having related to sorting and inconsistent tags. I'm not sure this is a solution for the OP (I think moving to ogg or other format is probably better), but I thought I would mention it because it is easy to miss and you might pull all your hair out trying to track down a hidden problem.

It is easy to miss, yes. But as I wrote earlier, it's ID3v2.3 only that's causing problems. That's what I meant when I wrote:



I still cannot answer the why, but the how. It's the tag format. The (mp3) files were tagged with ID3v2.3 and ID3v1. I isolated the tags and created three folders: FLAC, ID3v1 and ID3v2.3 (and renamed the albums accordingly).

FLAC and ID3v1 were played in the correct order, while ID3v2.3 was not (still don't know how the "order" is created here).


With "isolating" I was referring to deleting every other tag format.

You're right with the hair pulling thing. It drove me crazy for a while.

emalvick
2019-03-04, 15:37
Ah. Now I understand what you did on the tag part and isolation. By the way, if you end up with FLAC tags in an mp3 file (it's happened to me), you know you'll have issues. I don't know if you had that, but somehow I ended up with that, and it generally also coincided with other tag issues. I hate mp3's, partially because of the limitations in how they handle metadata.

I think the key thing is that the software built into these stereo units is not great and the technology has shown minimal progress. I've had cars with these types of features (able to plug an SD card, CD, USB with files on it) since about 2010. They are often limited to id3v1, miss gapless, occasionally only play in the order files are written, etc. I know you know that as you mentioned it up front, but it's almost 10 years since I got my first car with these features; you think they would improve. And, given you have an Audi, I would expect better by now.

I was pretty happy when my new car had Android Auto because long ago I had given up on being able to plug a disk or thumb drive in and just listen to music that way. At least Android and Apple give access to features the system doesn't have built in. Yes, it is a workaround, but I guess that's how it will be.

kidstypike
2019-03-05, 00:53
This has nothing to do with LMS, but maybe someone knows how to solve this problem, as it's digitized music related and I know it would really annoy some of you guys, too.

Have you tried DriveSort?
http://www.anerty.net/software/file/DriveSort/?lang=en

26892

dolodobendan
2019-03-05, 05:26
Ah. Now I understand what you did on the tag part and isolation. By the way, if you end up with FLAC tags in an mp3 file (it's happened to me), you know you'll have issues. I don't know if you had that, but somehow I ended up with that, and it generally also coincided with other tag issues. I hate mp3's, partially because of the limitations in how they handle metadata.

I think the key thing is that the software built into these stereo units is not great and the technology has shown minimal progress. I've had cars with these types of features (able to plug an SD card, CD, USB with files on it) since about 2010. They are often limited to id3v1, miss gapless, occasionally only play in the order files are written, etc. I know you know that as you mentioned it up front, but it's almost 10 years since I got my first car with these features; you think they would improve. And, given you have an Audi, I would expect better by now.

I was pretty happy when my new car had Android Auto because long ago I had given up on being able to plug a disk or thumb drive in and just listen to music that way. At least Android and Apple give access to features the system doesn't have built in. Yes, it is a workaround, but I guess that's how it will be.

Minimal progress, indeed. But I'm optimistic that it will get better.


Have you tried DriveSort?
http://www.anerty.net/software/file/DriveSort/?lang=en

26892

Yes, I tried that one. It would just close on selecting a drive. I ended up using a different one (SDSorter), but it didn't help.

cliveb
2019-03-05, 06:57
Ogg Vorbis also works, but no gapless playback here either.
That's surprising given that your car, like mine, is a VW group one. Ogg Vorbis gapless works just fine on my Skoda Bolero radio.
It's hard to fathom how the same manufacturer could contrive to use different Vorbis decoding engines for different radios in their range.
Why bother to write two sets of code (or, more likely, why bother to use two different Vorbis libraries)?
Talk about making unnecessary work for yourself!

bakker_be
2019-03-05, 08:41
That's surprising given that your car, like mine, is a VW group one. Ogg Vorbis gapless works just fine on my Skoda Bolero radio.
It's hard to fathom how the same manufacturer could contrive to use different Vorbis decoding engines for different radios in their range.
Why bother to write two sets of code (or, more likely, why bother to use two different Vorbis libraries)?
Talk about making unnecessary work for yourself!
Picture me intrigued. Since I drive a Golf VII with the GPS Discover Media ICE system, I'm going to try this myself, to add another data point :)

atrocity
2019-03-05, 09:25
I think the key thing is that the software built into these stereo units is not great and the technology has shown minimal progress. I've had cars with these types of features (able to plug an SD card, CD, USB with files on it) since about 2010. They are often limited to id3v1, miss gapless, occasionally only play in the order files are written, etc. I know you know that as you mentioned it up front, but it's almost 10 years since I got my first car with these features; you think they would improve. And, given you have an Audi, I would expect better by now.

They want to do the bare minimum amount of work that will allow them to list it as a "feature".

dolodobendan
2019-03-06, 04:27
They want to do the bare minimum amount of work that will allow them to list it as a "feature".

It's funny, isn't it. I could've spend a couple of thousands euros more for a Bang & Olufsen sound system just to hear the not gapless playback in even higher quality. :)