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slartibartfast
2018-04-02, 08:46
Does anyone have any preference for Replaygain or EBU R128? If anyone is using EBU R128 did they bother to apply it to all of their files or just change over to it from a point in time? I am considering the changeover but not entirely sure it is worth doing.

Stratmangler
2018-04-02, 09:47
I find use of the term "apply it to all of their files" alarming.

pinkdot
2018-04-02, 09:57
Why would you not apply this to all your files. Consistency is key here imo.

slartibartfast
2018-04-02, 10:21
I find use of the term "apply it to all of their files" alarming.Why? Only audio files obviously.

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slartibartfast
2018-04-02, 10:22
Why would you not apply this to all your files. Consistency is key here imo.Purely because of the hassle of actually doing it. I know I could set up a batch convert but it would still take a long time.

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drmatt
2018-04-02, 12:19
cd /music
find . -type f -exec applygain {} \;

.. wait ..

It's just tagging, tags can be removed just as easily.


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Stratmangler
2018-04-02, 12:26
I wouldn't be applying anything that irrevocably changes anything with the music files in my library.
All of the files in my library have Replaygain tags, but there's been nothing applied to the files.

Why the question about EBU R128 - does LMS handle the EBU R128 tags now?

slartibartfast
2018-04-02, 12:40
I wouldn't be applying anything that irrevocably changes anything with the music files in my library.
All of the files in my library have Replaygain tags, but there's been nothing applied to the files.

Why the question about EBU R128 - does LMS handle the EBU R128 tags now?

It is only a tag and EBU R128 tags are the same as Replaygain tags, just calculated differently. By apply I meant the tag.

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Stratmangler
2018-04-02, 23:57
It is only a tag and EBU R128 tags are the same as Replaygain tags, just calculated differently. By apply I meant the tag.

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I was just seeking clarification regarding the tags.

My experience with Replaygain tags, and LMS using them, is that it's a decent facility, and can save a lot of effort rushing for the volume control.
I used it for a good few years.
It's not without cost though.
I found that sound quality was better without it being used.

I migrated the server over to a RasPi setup, and forgot to set the Replaygain facility on the new server.
On switching between servers I found that with the RasPi server things just sounded better, and I wondered why.
Eventually I pinpointed the setup difference, utilised the facility on the RasPi, and immediately noticed the step back in sound quality.
Consequently I no longer use Replaygain as a matter of course.

My listening habits are an album at a time, so it's not difficult to adjust from album to album.
I never have got into using playlists, and it's only on rare occasions that I'll use the random play facility in LMS (when I will turn on Replaygain facility).

drmatt
2018-04-03, 00:04
I don't see the downside.. for non critical listening replaygain in album mode is perfectly good, and when you feel like properly listening to something, turn replaygain off. Bingo the music data is the same and sounds the same as it did before the file was tagged.

The one and only pain in the ass wrt post-processing files is that the "new music" menu option is based on the file time stamp.. so you mess up all the time stamps and you now don't have a clear record of when that music was "new".


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slartibartfast
2018-04-03, 00:08
I don't see the downside.. for non critical listening replaygain in album mode is perfectly good, and when you feel like properly listening to something, turn replaygain off. Bingo the music data is the same and sounds the same as it did before the file was tagged.

The one and only pain in the ass wrt post-processing files is that the "new music" menu option is based on the file time stamp.. so you mess up all the time stamps and you now don't have a clear record of when that music was "new".


Transcoded from Matt's brain by TapatalkIt would be nice if an on/off switch for replaygain was available on players and control apps and not just hidden away in player settings of the web GUI.

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Mnyb
2018-04-03, 01:04
I don't see the downside.. for non critical listening replaygain in album mode is perfectly good, and when you feel like properly listening to something, turn replaygain off. Bingo the music data is the same and sounds the same as it did before the file was tagged.

The one and only pain in the ass wrt post-processing files is that the "new music" menu option is based on the file time stamp.. so you mess up all the time stamps and you now don't have a clear record of when that music was "new".


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Some tagging software has options to not touch the timestamps .

drmatt
2018-04-03, 01:57
It would be nice if an on/off switch for replaygain was available on players and control apps and not just hidden away in player settings of the web GUI.

True, but personally I have more than one player and tend to leave it off on the players I care about and on everywhere else.


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drmatt
2018-04-03, 02:01
Some tagging software has options to not touch the timestamps .Yeah and you can record mtime and set it back manually after the retagging via a script or a short program but you can't fix the ctime, which some programs use instead of mtime to determine what's new and what's not (arguably correctly!).


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slartibartfast
2018-04-03, 02:16
True, but personally I have more than one player and tend to leave it off on the players I care about and on everywhere else.


Transcoded from Matt's brain by TapatalkI've never noticed any deterioration of sound quality with it on. Maybe I'm not listening carefully enough.

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drmatt
2018-04-03, 05:45
I've not noticed any either tbh, but I leave it off because then I have to blame the mastering engineers not replaygain for the sound being not to my satisfaction, and like the OP, I'm ok with operating my volume control about once every 45 minutes... :)


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slartibartfast
2018-04-03, 05:47
I've not noticed any either tbh, but I leave it off because then I have to blame the mastering engineers not replaygain for the sound being not to my satisfaction, and like the OP, I'm ok with operating my volume control about once every 45 minutes... :)


Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk[emoji3] I was the OP by the way.

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Apesbrain
2018-04-03, 08:14
I've never noticed any deterioration of sound quality with it on.
Why would there be? It's a simple amplification factor applied uniformly to every audio sample. The only issue is when a RG tag drives a sample into clipping, but LMS is designed to avoid that.

drmatt
2018-04-03, 10:05
Well, off topic, but, dither is the reason. Applied correctly or not. Argue at length..


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bakker_be
2018-04-03, 11:47
If you use foobar to calculate replaygain, you've been using R128 since v1.1.6 (http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog#section41), which to the best of my knowledge is 7 years old.

drmatt
2018-04-03, 11:59
I've always used metaflac but never investigated the algorithm in detail. I took the view as long as it was consistent I didn't care....


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bakker_be
2018-04-03, 12:20
I've always used metaflac but never investigated the algorithm in detail. I took the view as long as it was consistent I didn't care....


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As far as I can see, metaflac is still using standard replaygain.

Wombat
2018-04-03, 17:38
As far as I can see, metaflac is still using standard replaygain.
Yes, the code calculates levels still the same. The only thing changed a while back was the support for higher samplerates.

Wirrunna
2018-04-04, 19:13
Interesting thread. First I have heard of EBU R128. A quick google brings up the details, so I thought I would compare calculated Replay Gain (RPG) from some music ripped in 2009 with dbPoweramp 13.2 (presumably using Peak algorithm) and RPG re calculated using dbPoweramp 15.3 which uses the new EBU R128. I chose Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Atlanta Symphony.
There is quite a difference in the track RPG while only a small difference in the album RPG.

As I don't know when dbPoweramp changed to EBU R128 replay gain I have chosen to re-calculate RPG for my whole library, and for DrMatt I use BulkFileChanger to manipulate the file Modified Time to preserve the New Music order.

slartibartfast
2018-04-04, 23:25
Interesting thread. First I have heard of EBU R128. A quick google brings up the details, so I thought I would compare calculated Replay Gain (RPG) from some music ripped in 2009 with dbPoweramp 13.2 (presumably using Peak algorithm) and RPG re calculated using dbPoweramp 15.3 which uses the new EBU R128. I chose Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Atlanta Symphony.
There is quite a difference in the track RPG while only a small difference in the album RPG.

As I don't know when dbPoweramp changed to EBU R128 replay gain I have chosen to re-calculate RPG for my whole library, and for DrMatt I use BulkFileChanger to manipulate the file Modified Time to preserve the New Music order.I am still considering doing this. Did you choose -18 as the target level for EBU R128?

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drmatt
2018-04-04, 23:48
re-calculate RPG for my whole library, and for DrMatt I use BulkFileChanger to manipulate the file Modified Time to preserve the New Music order.

I'm on Linux, I'd script it myself. But then, I'm not going to be using dbpoweramp either!


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slartibartfast
2018-04-04, 23:59
Interesting thread. First I have heard of EBU R128. A quick google brings up the details, so I thought I would compare calculated Replay Gain (RPG) from some music ripped in 2009 with dbPoweramp 13.2 (presumably using Peak algorithm) and RPG re calculated using dbPoweramp 15.3 which uses the new EBU R128. I chose Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Atlanta Symphony.
There is quite a difference in the track RPG while only a small difference in the album RPG.

As I don't know when dbPoweramp changed to EBU R128 replay gain I have chosen to re-calculate RPG for my whole library, and for DrMatt I use BulkFileChanger to manipulate the file Modified Time to preserve the New Music order.

There appears to be a check box in the dbPoweramp replaygain feature which allows the file date to be preserved.
https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/archive/index.php?t-35818.html

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slartibartfast
2018-04-06, 01:09
Finally decided to convert all my replaygain tags to EBU R128. It would take around 18 hours of continuous processing for 46000 tracks. Twice that including the backup drive but probably still quicker than resynchronizing the files. Sometimes you start something and wish you hadn't bothered.

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Stratmangler
2018-04-06, 11:29
Finally decided to convert all my replaygain tags to EBU R128. It would take around 18 hours of continuous processing for 46000 tracks. Twice that including the backup drive but probably still quicker than resynchronizing the files. Sometimes you start something and wish you hadn't bothered.

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At least you can set things going, turn around, and walk away from it while the process runs.
Can you imagine how stressful things would be if you had to supervise things every step of the way? :eek:

slartibartfast
2018-04-06, 14:51
At least you can set things going, turn around, and walk away from it while the process runs.
Can you imagine how stressful things would be if you had to supervise things every step of the way? :eek:True but it doesn't help when someone unplugs the laptop instead of the iron[emoji853]

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Wirrunna
2018-04-06, 15:48
I am still considering doing this. Did you choose -18 as the target level for EBU R128?

Yes, default setting in dbPoweramp.

DrMatt, I have my "master" music library on a windows box where I rip, tag etc, and use Vortexboxes as servers for pCp payers. (I have 2 SB3 and 2 Touches in the cupboard). I use BulkFileChanger to add 5 seconds to the Modified time so that FreeFileSync and rsync will recognize changed files for syncing while preserving the LMS new music order.