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Mastiff
2018-01-16, 11:40
I have a bit of a problem. I bought an old house (from 1830 or older, still working on that), and it's a pain in the you know what to get cables through all the walls for my whole house audio system. I have two rooms where it's downright impossible, two bathrooms. What I want to do there is to have a very reliable solution that can transfer audio from my media server (which has 12 zones) to active speakers (something nice and white looking, not sure what yet). The closest I can get is about 10 meters, with three walls, one of them being each bathroom's tile wall. So bluetooth is not really a good solution, and it takes time to reconnect when the speaker's been off. So what I'm thinking about is getting two (possibly a couple more later if it works well) Squeezeboxes (I can get the Duo or the older Slim Devices V3 quite cheap) and run lik this:

--->Wave audio Zone 10 ----> WaveInput -----> Squeezebox1 ---->Active speaker
Server --->
--->Wave audio Zone 10 ----> WaveInput -----> Squeezebox2 ---->Active speaker

Is this possible with the plug-in, or in a similar way?

Thanks in advance!

bpa
2018-01-16, 13:06
I don't really understand the "problem". WaveInput is a last resort and usually not a good solution. If you have 3 different soruces then I suspect you can run 3 different instances of Waveinput but problem may lie with the OS, audio subsystem etc of the source- not LMS or wavinput.

If you can get power in the bathroom for "active" speaker - why not use homeplug ?

What has bluetooth to do with the problem as it is not usually used with LMS ?

Is your media server LMS or some other system ?

Mastiff
2018-01-17, 00:43
Sorry, I probably didn't explain enough. I thought showing and telling that what I needed was to transfer wave audio out from the sound card wold be all that was needed for the question, so I didn't elaborate not to confuse the issue. Also I see that I have misprinted in the "diagram", it should of course be Zone 10 and Zone 12, two different zones. But let's do the explanation, then:

I want to use the Squeezeboxes as a pure transport vehicle, I have my own multi-zone system that uses other programs to play music (J.River Media Center), web radio stations (Foobar) and streaming from iStuff (TuneAero), plus named bluetooth receivers in all rooms (names like Living Room, Master Bedroom, Kitchen and so on). Everything is tied together in a central system in the cellar with a server with all the audio outputs and amps for the rooms that could be cable connected, with speaker cables going to them and a LAN cable for the Bluetooth device going down to the amp for the zone (multi-zone amps, so three zones per amp). The UI is my own JavaScript webpage system (so no need to install anything, any phone, tablet or pc can control any zone in the house, and the web page will always show what's playing in any zone, with controllable volume and so on) and IR remotes in all the zones, all part of my home automation with Node-RED, EventGhost and Girder.

In the rooms where cables are near impossible or impossible to get in, I will have Audio Pro Addon T10 speakers with subwoofers, fed by the server via analogue audio out from the Squeezebox. Homeplug doesn't really help anything, since the problem is getting an audio out signal from the computer into the active speaker. As far as I know there are no homeplugs that transfers audio in such a way, and the AD-DA converters in home plugs probably aren't very good anyway.

Oh, if you have a good tip about a simpler solution to do the same (not something simpler to do, this is how I do stuff, it's my third house with the system) I would of course like that. But I haven't seen any wireless audio solutions that aren't either hysterically expensive or have lousy range or sound.

bpa
2018-01-17, 06:42
Does this system partially exisst now ? or is this part of a design exercise ?
Do you understand how a Squeezebox actually works and its relationship to LMS?
Do you have a LMS ? Are you trying to use Squeezbox player without an LMS ?
What are your Squeezebox player e.g. Sb3, SB Classic, RPi3 ??

if power is available in the bathroom. The Squeezbox player (e.g. rpi3) could be located very close to the speakers in bathroom with network connection to LMS server over homeplug.

Mastiff
2018-01-17, 07:13
My system excists in most of my house (and in all of my cabin by the sea), it's the final rooms that is the problem. I know I need LMS running on the computer to actually use the plug-in, yes. I will not use any other form for streaming available to the Squeezebox, all I want is to use a few "virtual sound outputs", in other words LMS with the plug-in for a few zones, to send audio to a few of the cheapest Squeezebox players I can get (which seems to be V3 and Duet, from what I can see on the Norwegian site finn.no which is the biggest market in Norway, or I will go for a PI3, I already have a few of those running in the automation system, so I know a bit about them EDIT: Or maybe not, the good audio output for them costs more than a standalone Duet or V3, so it's actually cheaper to go with the real thing) and have this player connected directly to the active speaker with a regular RCA/phono cable. From what I understand that should work. Or have I misunderstood something about the Squeezebox? Oh, and like I said homeplugs are not necesasry, I have no problems with wifi range in the house (from a few of the monster routers that looks like a dead alien insect with lots of legs sticking up in the air).

I have attached a screenshot from Firefox that shows what my system is doing at the moment. There are menues at the top that shows and controls temperatures for all the rooms in the house, and I am about to go live with a page for lights as well.

24407

Mastiff
2018-01-17, 10:23
I guess my question is to unusual to have any definitive answers. I have bought a used V3 which should arrive either Friday or after the weekend, so I'll go from there, with a test setup.

bpa
2018-01-17, 12:01
You have two issues.

Your original question was about multiple instances and I think waveinput will still work but it will depend on the sources allowing the command to get the audio (e.g. aplay). Windows source may be different.

Your second problem was how to get a radio signal through 3 walls - if the walls block wifi they will also block Bluetooth. So asI seeit, your choice is
1. have player connecting to speaker using long audio leads.
2. Have player very close to speaker and using homeplug over power supply so that player can be networked on existing wiring.

I also live in an old hgouse with brock walls. I use a meshed wifi (Orbi) in conjunction homeplug to deliver networking to awkward rooms. Placing wifi router/slave so that doors and windows are in the signal path or reflected paths - avoiding paths through multiple walls/chimney breasts..

Mastiff
2018-01-17, 12:28
Actually wifi has a range that's 10 times that of BT, at least regular consumer units, so there's no reason wifi shouldn't work (which I've already said it does - I never said that wifi was blocked!) in the room even if I can't get BT to work reliably. Long speaker cables is, as I said, my regular way of doing this, but there's nothing going through the walls or floor in those rooms, and the ceiling is not practical.

As for getting the audio, that was my question, but I'll see when I get a couple of these things running.

Mnyb
2018-01-17, 20:55
But why squeezeboxes ? If your not interested in LMS and it features ?

Sure you can have some other endpiont running on an rpi3 , all Hat dacs out there are not expensive and you get new stuff not >10 year old hardware .

Mastiff
2018-01-18, 00:48
Because a home automation colleague here in Norway who's been using these boxes for years and years thought it would be the easiest and most cost effective way of doing it. ;) I asked in a home automation forum here, and I have asked in several other audio forums before, and nobody has ever been able to tell me a system that can do exactly what I need. All other things that can output analogue audio can only output their own system (Samsung, Philips, Yamaha, Sonos...). None of them have a analogue audio input, good enough sound quality and a price that isn't in the pro range. The closest would be Bluesound, which costs around 500 for the input node alone and would be around 1700 for a system with two good speakers or 1100 for one with two merely OK speakers. And if I get the Squeezebox setup up and running, that will cost me around 240 per room with one of the best compact speakers on the market (Audio Pro Addon T10 Gen. 2).

Of course if you know something that can work, please let me know! Then I can use that instead, and just sell the Sqeezebox again, or find something else fun to use it for.

Mastiff
2018-01-18, 02:07
Typical... I think I just found a better solution, the day after byuing a used Sqeezebox! I was tipped about Airport Express as a receiver and TuneBlade as an AirPlay sender. I am familiar with TuneBlade, I just didn't know about the Airport Express (being a certified iHater...). Can the Squeezebox receive AirPlay streams? If it can I'd rather have that then Airport Express, then I can still say that no device from crApple is defacing my system! ;)

Mastiff
2018-01-18, 02:12
And even more typical, when it rains, it pours:

https://lifehacker.com/5978594/turn-a-raspberry-pi-into-an-airplay-receiver-for-streaming-music-in-your-living-room

Man... That is so dumb finding stuff like that the day after a buy!

epoch1970
2018-01-18, 03:08
You don't even need Airplay. Start by choosing the OS of the machine on the sending end (near that multizone amp), and look for ways to stream live audio from that platform.
The available methods will restrict (more or less) your choice of hardware for the endpoints.

The possibilities are endless indeed:
- networked audio device managers: PulseAudio, Jack, ...
- network transport tools + local sender/local receiver : ssh, socat plus something else, ...
- (live) streaming applications: vlc, shoutcast, icecast ...

Squeezeboxes don't do Airplay natively. There is an LMS plugin for that, too, but I think that is besides the point.

d6jg
2018-01-18, 04:39
There are all sorts of AV sender & receiver devices on the market that use RF

Viz a cheapo pair
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bestland-PAT-650-Wireless-Transmitter-Receivers/dp/B074H9SM9H/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1516275337&sr=8-4&keywords=av+sender

OK you don't want video but a couple of these will still do exactly what you want won't they ? I understand the requirement to be to take an Audio source (switched from your existing Multi Room set up) and send it to a Remote location in this case via RF. There is no control element to worry about except On & Off.

Mastiff
2018-01-18, 05:45
epoch1970, you have misunderstood a bit. There's no multi-zone amp in play here, there's an audio server running Windows Server with four sound cards with 3 outputs each, so taking it from wave (like TuneBlade does) and sending it is just as good as taking it from the analogue output, hence my intgerestin the WaveInput plug-in. But now I actually think AirPlay will work best for me, I have full control over volume and everything else from the server with my home automation server, and I have found relatively cheap (less than 200), used AirPlay speakers that sound very nice. They're actually the AirPlay version of the speakers that I was going to use with the Sqeezebox setup.

d6jg, I have tried 4-5 different of those types, and none of them are able to work reliably in my house. The thing is that if I can't transfer over WiFi (where I have a big, fat router that has no problems reahing the bathrooms), the necessary range will be about doubled plus a 1 meter think stone (not concrete, real stone) wall. I kid you not, the houses were sturdy built in the early 1800's! I just don't have viable audio endpoints near enough.

Anyway, I think this thread can be put to rest, I have found my solution. Thanks for all inputs! :cool:

dunk
2018-01-19, 10:28
waveinput takes a physical analog input connection on a sound card as a continuous feed into squeezebox server, and streams it to squeezeboxes

you already have a digial stream in your server card, so would be outputting it via a line output of your sound card then recapturing it and redigitizing it in the same server via an analog sound card line-in to be streamed digitally.

it can be done on windows (multiple wavinputs dont work on linux usually) but the whole digital-analog-analog-digital is a wasteful route
you dont actually use multiple instances of wavinput, just a single instance, but if your windows computer has multiple audio inputs each with a line-in, they appear in squeezebox as wavin:0 wavin:1 wavin:2 etc

bpa
2018-01-19, 11:11
waveinput takes a physical analog input connection on a sound card as a continuous feed into squeezebox server, and streams it to squeezeboxes

you already have a digial stream in your server card, so would be outputting it via a line output of your sound card then recapturing it and redigitizing it in the same server via an analog sound card line-in to be streamed digitally.

it can be done on windows (multiple wavinputs dont work on linux usually) but the whole digital-analog-analog-digital is a wasteful route
you dont actually use multiple instances of wavinput, just a single instance, but if your windows computer has multiple audio inputs each with a line-in, they appear in squeezebox as wavin:0 wavin:1 wavin:2 etc

Just for clairifcation as OP has come to a decision.

Waveinput inputs do NOT have to be "physical" - they can be virtual or networked (e.g. useing pulseaudio) - non physical input are usually more complicated to use and do not result in redigitizing of the stream.