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bakker_be
2017-12-15, 01:28
Thanks to John Darko (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-holiday-gift-guide-2017/) I've started a 60-days free trial of Roon, and even taken the plunge to let it temporarily take control over my various squeeze-instances. I last tried this in the early stages, and without having access to a Tidal account. Here are some findings on the current state of things to me:

Somehow it plays louder than LMS. I switched over without touching anything in the rest of the setup, and I had to lower the volume by 10dB as indicated on the display of my amp to maintain the same perceived volume :confused:
Scanning the local collection sure takes up a lot of time and resources: I've dedicated 1 core of my i5 5300U CPU to it and after 12 it's still only about halfway through my 120K wel-tagged tracks and it's using up around 1.5GB of RAM :eek:
With Tidal in the mix, "Radio" seems to work much better than it used to, actually giving a diverse but coherent mix of songs. I'll try it out later with Tidal disconnected just to be certain. It does use tracks from the local collection as well as it is.

slartibartfast
2017-12-15, 01:35
Thanks to John Darko (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-holiday-gift-guide-2017/) I've started a 60-days free trial of Roon, and even taken the plunge to let it temporarily take control over my various squeeze-instances. I last tried this in the early stages, and without having access to a Tidal account. Here are some findings on the current state of things to me:

Somehow it plays louder than LMS. I switched over without touching anything in the rest of the setup, and I had to lower the volume by 10dB as indicated on the display of my amp to maintain the same perceived volume :confused:
Scanning the local collection sure takes up a lot of time and resources: I've dedicated 1 core of my i5 5300U CPU to it and after 12 it's still only about halfway through my 120K wel-tagged tracks and it's using up around 1.5GB of RAM :eek:
With Tidal in the mix, "Radio" seems to work much better than it used to, actually giving a diverse but coherent mix of songs. I'll try it out later with Tidal disconnected just to be certain. It does use tracks from the local collection as well as it is.
Is that volume difference related to Replaygain?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

bakker_be
2017-12-15, 01:50
Is that volume difference related to Replaygain?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
I have no idea actually, all my tracks are painstakingly tagged with Replaygain info, according to the R128 EBU norm, which Roon also uses, so logically it shouldn't, especially since Roon mixes local and cloud tracks without perceived differences. My LMS volume levelling has recently been changed from Smart Gain to Album Gain, following the reccomendations in https://octo.hku.nl/octo/repository/getfile?id=qLlZPGSVXFM, which has also been implemented by Tidal, so the leap in volume really doesn't make any sense ...

slartibartfast
2017-12-15, 01:57
I have no idea actually, all my tracks are painstakingly tagged with Replaygain info, according to the R128 EBU norm, which Roon also uses, so logically it shouldn't, especially since Roon mixes local and cloud tracks without perceived differences. My LMS volume levelling has recently been changed from Smart Gain to Album Gain, following the reccomendations in https://octo.hku.nl/octo/repository/getfile?id=qLlZPGSVXFM, which has also been implemented by Tidal, so the leap in volume really doesn't make any sense ...This is probably a stupid question but have you enabled Replaygain in Roon? Apparently default is off.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

bakker_be
2017-12-15, 02:25
This is probably a stupid question but have you enabled Replaygain in Roon? Apparently default is off.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Thanks, that solves part of the Loudness jump :p I hadn't really thought it would be a user defined setting, with volume levelling being implemented by default across all streaming services, so I hadn't even looked for it. I now set it to the AES-reccommended (http://www.aes.org/technical/documents/AESTD1004_1_15_10.pdf) -16LUFS and it's MUCH better :)

garym
2017-12-15, 07:07
Thanks, that solves part of the Loudness jump :p I hadn't really thought it would be a user defined setting, with volume levelling being implemented by default across all streaming services, so I hadn't even looked for it. I now set it to the AES-reccommended (http://www.aes.org/technical/documents/AESTD1004_1_15_10.pdf) -16LUFS and it's MUCH better :)

I think Roon does its own RG scanning as well. There is a setting somewhere to tell it to use the RG tags instead of its own calculation.

bakker_be
2017-12-15, 08:49
I think Roon does its own RG scanning as well. There is a setting somewhere to tell it to use the RG tags instead of its own calculation.

Scanning indeed, but you have to manually activate the actual use of those values :rolleyes:

bakker_be
2017-12-16, 03:13
24 hours later, all files imported, around 10% scanned :eek:

callesoroe
2017-12-16, 05:16
Thanks to John Darko (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-holiday-gift-guide-2017/) I've started a 60-days free trial of Roon, and even taken the plunge to let it temporarily take control over my various squeeze-instances. I last tried this in the early stages, and without having access to a Tidal account. Here are some findings on the current state of things to me:

Somehow it plays louder than LMS. I switched over without touching anything in the rest of the setup, and I had to lower the volume by 10dB as indicated on the display of my amp to maintain the same perceived volume :confused:
Scanning the local collection sure takes up a lot of time and resources: I've dedicated 1 core of my i5 5300U CPU to it and after 12 it's still only about halfway through my 120K wel-tagged tracks and it's using up around 1.5GB of RAM :eek:
With Tidal in the mix, "Radio" seems to work much better than it used to, actually giving a diverse but coherent mix of songs. I'll try it out later with Tidal disconnected just to be certain. It does use tracks from the local collection as well as it is.


Can you still use dynamic playlists with trackstat ratings with Roon ??? Or can Roon not read trackstat ratings ??

bakker_be
2017-12-16, 05:19
Can you still use dynamic playlists with trackstat ratings with Roon ??? Or can Roon not read trackstat ratings ??

Roon completely replaces your LMS infrastructure, so no access to Trackstat anymore AFAIK.

garym
2017-12-16, 06:16
Can you still use dynamic playlists with trackstat ratings with Roon ??? Or can Roon not read trackstat ratings ??

no and no. Roon has a "radio" function that builds an ongoing playlist from a seed song. But it is like driving a Ford model T compared to a Porche as compared to using LMS and dynamic playlists. Supposedly they are trying to improve this, but it is a long way off from what LMS can do today.

MelonMonkey
2017-12-17, 10:37
Roon should be a continual reminder to Logitech of the opportunity they pissed away with SS. On the hardware side they already have plenty of reminders...

FatPete
2017-12-17, 13:00
Thanks for that link for the 60-day trial - I've been after an extended trial for ages now because I knew 14 days wouldn't be long enough for me to decide whether I could justify the cost.

24 hours in and I'm quite impressed so far. Works flawlessly pushing music to my Sonos (and downsampling hi-res automatically).

I'm trying to get my OCD back under control though after seeing how the additional metadata has expanded my Artists list by a huge amount! It's going to be a big tidy-up job to get things to my satisfaction, but it's a really nice piece of software.

Let's see how I stand in mid-February when it's time to stump up some cash!

jbm
2017-12-17, 14:02
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM, bakker_be
<bakker_be.89jx1c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Scanning indeed, but you have to manually activate the actual use of
> those values :rolleyes:

This seems 100% appropriate to me. By default, Roon delivers
bitperfect original audio to play zones. If you'd prefer some flavor
of loudness normalization (at the cost of changing the original audio
bits en route), you can choose that as an option.

garym
2017-12-17, 14:28
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM, bakker_be
<bakker_be.89jx1c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Scanning indeed, but you have to manually activate the actual use of
> those values :rolleyes:

This seems 100% appropriate to me. By default, Roon delivers
bitperfect original audio to play zones. If you'd prefer some flavor
of loudness normalization (at the cost of changing the original audio
bits en route), you can choose that as an option.

good point. It's been a while since installing, but I recall my LMS required me to choose an option to use ReplayGain tags in playback (album, track, or smartgain) in the LMS > Settings. By default I recall it was off.

bakker_be
2017-12-18, 01:14
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:49 AM, bakker_be
<bakker_be.89jx1c (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> Scanning indeed, but you have to manually activate the actual use of
> those values :rolleyes:

This seems 100% appropriate to me. By default, Roon delivers
bitperfect original audio to play zones. If you'd prefer some flavor
of loudness normalization (at the cost of changing the original audio
bits en route), you can choose that as an option.

Your point does make sense, it's just not what I expected in an application that's this tightly tied up with Tidal, as there (and on all major streaming platforms as well) volume normalization is the default (to 14 LUFS on Tidal). LMS strictly speaking dating from before the whole Loudness War & streaming debate, it seems logical to me to have it disabled by default.
Anyways, activated it does work perfectly well and for "casual listening" is quite indispensable IMO.

jimzak
2017-12-18, 17:58
Quick questions:

How does Roon play with Squeezebox hardware? Do you pick the player from the interface just like in SS?

If i'm using Raspberry Pi players with LCD screens, will they have the Roon interface too?

Thanks for answering these basic questions.

PS My music collection is large at 400k files. Can Roon handle that?

bakker_be
2017-12-19, 02:36
Quick questions:

How does Roon play with Squeezebox hardware? Do you pick the player from the interface just like in SS?

If i'm using Raspberry Pi players with LCD screens, will they have the Roon interface too?

Thanks for answering these basic questions.

PS My music collection is large at 400k files. Can Roon handle that?

In Roon they're called zones, but it's similar.
No, Roon doesn't change anything on your players. It impersonates an LMS.
You'll need quite some diskspace for the DB and stuff (mine takes 6GB for 120k tracks), but apart from that I see no issues.

garym
2017-12-19, 07:19
In Roon they're called zones, but it's similar.
No, Roon doesn't change anything on your players. It impersonates an LMS.
You'll need quite some diskspace for the DB and stuff (mine takes 6GB for 120k tracks), but apart from that I see no issues.

your 6GB must include your actual storage for the 120k tracks. the Roon database files are fairly small. There is a setting in Roon to tell it to work with Squeezeboxes, including squeezelite installs. In my use of roon, I'm using a separate cheap "roonready" endpoint made from a rasberry pi with the roon "RAAT" firmware installed. I still use LMS and squeezeboxes 99% of the time. But roon is a nice experience with how it displays and integrates information on one's collection. And it is mostly agnostic on what types of players it can stream to (squeezeboxes, sonos, roonRAAT, etc.) while doing separate room or synchronized, gapless, play almost any codec, etc. Warning: I don't think it will play CUE files or Windows Media Lossless.

Apesbrain
2017-12-19, 07:28
My LMS volume levelling has recently been changed from Smart Gain to Album Gain, following the reccomendations in https://octo.hku.nl/octo/repository/getfile?id=qLlZPGSVXFM...
Somewhat incidental, but I don't get this. All "Smart Gain" does is make LMS use Album Gain if playing an album and Track Gain if playing a mix of tracks. How is that article suggesting anything different?

garym
2017-12-19, 07:38
Somewhat incidental, but I don't get this. All "Smart Gain" does is make LMS use Album Gain if playing an album and Track Gain if playing a mix of tracks. How is that article suggesting anything different?

exactly! That's why I really like SmartGain.

slartibartfast
2017-12-19, 07:41
Somewhat incidental, but I don't get this. All "Smart Gain" does is make LMS use Album Gain if playing an album and Track Gain if playing a mix of tracks. How is that article suggesting anything different?As I understand it using Album Gain was preferred even when playing a mix of tracks. Using Smart Gain would use Track Gain.

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Apesbrain
2017-12-19, 08:22
As I understand it using Album Gain was preferred even when playing a mix of tracks. Using Smart Gain would use Track Gain.

"This proposal was tested against track normalization in a shuffled playlist
of 24 songs with 38 subjects. It turned out that 80% of the subjects
preferred album normalization, even though the tracks were selected
for an extreme difference in loudness, of up to 10 LU."

Ok, I guess it's a personal preference thing.

bakker_be
2017-12-20, 08:44
"This proposal was tested against track normalization in a shuffled playlist
of 24 songs with 38 subjects. It turned out that 80% of the subjects
preferred album normalization, even though the tracks were selected
for an extreme difference in loudness, of up to 10 LU."

Ok, I guess it's a personal preference thing.

That's it exactly, and that's why I changed it, to test if I agree with the 80%. I personally don't really experience a difference.

bakker_be
2017-12-20, 08:48
your 6GB must include your actual storage for the 120k tracks. the Roon database files are fairly small.

That's the size of the "RoonServer" folder in c:\users\username\AppData\Local. The 120k tracks are on my Ubuntu server and are around 3TB ...