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mushupork
2017-03-24, 08:06
I just connected 3 classics to the same amp for the first time and noticed something I did not expect. The output volume is different even when all are set at 50% (the default after reset)

I have a Logitech branded Classic v3 Black Body with Black trim
I have a Slim Devices branded Classic v3 White Body with Silver Trim
I have a Slim Devices branded Classic v3 Black Body with Silver Trim

According to what I have found the internal hardware should be the same across all versions - at least no distinction is made on the wiki page title "hardware versions"

I have swapped amp inputs and cables etc but the Logitech branded one in particular is a lot softer when set at the same output volume.

I am wondering if others have seen this or if there is a different setting I may have missed that would affect the volume. I want to synchronize around the house but in rooms that are sometimes close enough that a difference could be noticed ... so I want them the same.

Thanks!

Mnyb
2017-03-24, 10:50
Do you have replaygain activated on some of the devices ?

Was it not some hardware preMp volume in some SB firmware ? Complete xilinx and factory reset ?

mushupork
2017-03-24, 15:51
I am not familiar with replaygain. "Volume Adjustment" in the menu is set to "No Volume Adjustment"

I did a xilinix and a factory reset (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Special_IR_Keys_on_Reboot_for_Factory_Reset_and_La st_FW) just now and the same thing is happening.

I tested again just now and with the two players are synchronized, when I A/B the inputs on the amp the Logitech branded Classic output is more quiet. In order to have them play at the same perceived loudness in the room I have to raise the volume on the Logitech branded Classic about 25 steps. As in that one is at 55 on its output in the software menu while the other Classic has its output set at 30. I also played with the balance on the amp to be sure it wasn't that one of teh channels wasn't playing as loud as the other. The same problem exists when listening to just the Left or Right channels separately.

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Special_IR_Keys_on_Reboot_for_Factory_Reset_and_La st_FW

mushupork
2017-03-28, 11:20
Replygain works by reading tags in the music file. If I have my various Classics synchronized they are playing the same file - so even if replaygain were enabled then they all would play the same file at the same volume, right? Unless I am misunderstanding I don't think that is my issue.

Are there any other suggestions?

Mnyb
2017-03-28, 11:42
There is a built in preamp volume of some sort in the firmware.

I should be under the player settings tab somewhere ( in the LMS web-UI ) for your SB3 a value between 0-63 this is some kind of fixed attenuation .

There is also an attenuation setting for streaming content that could differ in the player settings .

I have my SB3 in box has not been on any of my latest server so I don't even have the prefs file left ?

Are alll the SB3 at the same firmware ?

mushupork
2017-03-28, 12:10
I have two Classics connected right now.
One is the Logitech branded one and the Other is a Slim Devices branded one.

Firmware is 137 for both.

I just checked the LMS web interface and both have the same settings
Under Player > Basic Settings > Audio >
"Volume Adjustment/Replay Gain" is set to "No Volume Adjustment"
"Preamp Volume Control" is set to 0

Mnyb
2017-03-28, 12:50
I have two Classics connected right now.
One is the Logitech branded one and the Other is a Slim Devices branded one.

Firmware is 137 for both.

I just checked the LMS web interface and both have the same settings
Under Player > Basic Settings > Audio >
"Volume Adjustment/Replay Gain" is set to "No Volume Adjustment"
"Preamp Volume Control" is set to 0

Can it be the failing output capacitor problem ? but its usually one channel that fails first ? There are other forum treads about the failing output capacitors .

Do you have DAC or some HT receivers with digital inputs ? to see if the volume is really the same even without the analog part ?
Try to use the digital outputs ? If the amp has digital inputs these are the ones you want to use anyway .

Also try the 3,5mm headphone out to see if makes a difference its a different internal amp . Not as good an output as the normal RCA outputs but worth trying as an experiment ?

mushupork
2017-03-28, 16:29
Can it be the failing output capacitor problem ? but its usually one channel that fails first ? There are other forum treads about the failing output capacitors .

Do you have DAC or some HT receivers with digital inputs ? to see if the volume is really the same even without the analog part ?
Try to use the digital outputs ? If the amp has digital inputs these are the ones you want to use anyway .

Also try the 3,5mm headphone out to see if makes a difference its a different internal amp . Not as good an output as the normal RCA outputs but worth trying as an experiment ?

Thanks for the excellent - unfortunately same results.

I first tried the headphone output on the Logitech and compared with the Slim Devices RCA outs
= Logitech still a lot softer output

Next I compared against optical out on Logitech branded to an outboard DAC
= Logitech still a lot softer

Next I swapped outputs on the integrated amp (again) to reconfirm this was really just the Classics
= Softness followed the Logitech branded to the other amp input

Lastly, just for grins, on the LMS software I set both Classics volume control to maximum output

Basic Settings > Player > Audio > "Volume Control" = "Output level is fixed at 100%"

The Logitech branded one is still much softer

I made sure to specify in the first post that both Left and Right channels are the same volume which i think indicates that the capacitor issues you mentioned (and I found posts for) is not the cause.

I am not sure what all this points to - but consistently in every config the Logitech branded C;classic is softer than teh Slim Devices one.

Mnyb
2017-03-28, 22:55
Then it must be a setting !

Digital out at 100% should yield the same result a bitperfect output !

You don't have the bitrate limiting feature on for any player ? In player settings .

Try another LMS instance ( on another machine ) a fresh one where no one have meddled with the settings .
With factory reset players .

Conected directly to mysqueezebox.com and listen to a radio station does the differences persists .

Any use of strange plugins , that set ups resampling rules ? ( I forgot it's name )

Any custom-convert.conf files in use ? With special rules for each player .

Grasping for straws here you haven't got a modded player second hand ,where some basket case have meddled with it ?

mushupork
2017-03-29, 08:03
This Logitech unit I bought second hand recently and I am comparing it against a Classic I have had for years..

Two things :

1) Software cause ... Wouldn't a factory reset clear any software settings and set it to its defaults? I did factory reset a couple times already. (also the xilinx reset.)

2) Hardware cause ... I can open it up to see if there is any evidence that someone modding it physically also when I get home tonight. I am not confident this is the answer but I do want to be thorough.

Mnyb
2017-03-29, 08:15
This Logitech unit I bought second hand recently and I am comparing it against a Classic I have had for years..

Two things :

1) Software cause ... Wouldn't a factory reset clear any software settings and set it to its defaults? I did factory reset a couple times already. (also the xilinx reset.)

2) Hardware cause ... I can open it up to see if there is any evidence that someone modding it physically also when I get home tonight. I am not confident this is the answer but I do want to be thorough.

1 . Not realy the old squeezeboxes are very simple devices almost everything is done by the server , so when it reconnects it picks up settings from the server .

2 . hardware not really for the digital out (it's an 0.000000001% idea because i'm out of any other ideas ... )

The second hand unit is disconected from the original owners mysqueezebox.com account ? and registred to yours ?
Check that carefully , there is settings sync between mysb.com and your local server for some things .

mushupork
2017-03-31, 17:02
When playing a radio station or Pandora the volume difference stays the so it must not be reading tags in my personal sound files etc.

epoch1970
2017-04-04, 06:57
Strange. I have mixed Classics and Slims in the past and never noticed that.
So much happens in LMS for these thin players... perhaps install a temporary new server and see if there is still a volume difference? (could it be a stray convert.conf somewhere?)

mushupork
2017-04-04, 08:49
I appreciate the suggestion but what is a convert.conf?

The scenario here is that I had a Classic for a number of years and bought a second hand "new" one. (new to me anyway)
I added the new Classic to my mysqueezebox.com account. I have done the hardware resets. (xilinx reset and factory reset) I have made no LMS server changes. Same server I have been using for years.

I am no power user - up to now I use this to play my music collection on a single "stereo". If the players basically inherit all their brains from the server, and I made no server changes and no advanced configuration because I am a novice, I don't see how the "new" second hand player received a config file that the "old" player I had did not. The most sophisticated thing I have ever done is what I am trying now - having two players in separate rooms synchronized and playing the same music into two "zones". With the different volume outputs though, having a universal volume will be a challenge. Comfortable volume in one room might be too loud in the other and vice versa.

Summary process of elimination:
- Since I did full resets on everything it can't be a left over setting from the previous owner.
- Since it does this when I am playing Pandora and Internet radio stations it can't be the music files themselves.
- Since I compared the full volume out from the players (100%) it can't be something in the Classic volume control
- Since I compared against the digital output and it was also much softer it can't be the analog stage of the Classics.
- Since the balance is the same across both left and right channels I do not think this is the capacitor failure thing I saw in other threads.

When I increase the output volume on the "new" Classic to compensate for the different volume output levels it sounds great. No quality problems or differences. In a situation where there was only one unit no one would ever think something was weird. I have 3 Classics, the original Slim Devices one I have had for years, 2nd unit that is Logitech branded and a 3rd Classic that is Slim Devices branded. The Slims play the same volume and the Logitech does not.

I opened this thread thinking the answer might be that this was a known issue for power users. A long time user would see this and say that some Logitech branded units had different hardware inside or had different internal settings. You'd never know there was a difference unless you played them side by side. Not trying to lead anyone here but that is my pet theory since I can't think of anything else to test.

Mnyb
2017-04-04, 09:30
100% volume on digital out should be the same volume on any source i.e. Bit perfect , CD player DVD player anything with a digital out ? Any squeezebox SB3 Transporter Touch raspberry pi all the same . Hence the volume can't really be the same .
It's just a number .

I would try a fresh server , to see if there is some leftovers in some config file or old plugin .

Custom-convert.conf a way to write your own custom transcoding rules .

What plugins do you use ?

epoch1970
2017-04-04, 13:28
I opened this thread thinking the answer might be that this was a known issue for power users. A long time user would see this and say that some Logitech branded units had different hardware inside or had different internal settings. You'd never know there was a difference unless you played them side by side. Not trying to lead anyone here but that is my pet theory since I can't think of anything else to test.
No, sorry. Inside they are exactly the same. The slim ones have a reputation for being a bit more reliable (soldering quality) but that's all.
It can be something in the volume control. Such as a filter, applied after it, that reduces gain. You can do this sort of thing, player by player, in a custom-convert.conf file. Few people use them, it is not well documented and there isn't much GUI for it. Using another LMS on another machine would allow to test that theory easily.
Good luck.

mushupork
2017-04-04, 15:25
OK - so I installed Logitech Media Server 7.7.5 on a second PC. I then connected the Classics and I played an Internet Radio station. Same output level difference as before.

I am not sure what this was supposed to test but I did it since it seems you both agree that it was the next step.

Mnyb
2017-04-04, 21:52
?? :confused: that's weird you use 100% volume and the digital out . Conected to the same input on the DAC/amp whatnot ?

Apesbrain
2017-04-05, 05:40
You've tried everything else; have you tried rewriting the firmware? Download a "fresh" copy here:

http://update.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.9.1/squeezebox2_137.bin

mushupork
2017-04-05, 08:16
All Classics currently report in LMS as having firmware version 137.

From a quick google and a read of the wiki the updates are automatic and initiated at power on. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Firmware_update

A quick look through the squeezebox folder (LMS software) I see that the firmware for the various player lives here:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Squeezebox\server\Firmware

I imagine I could download the file you linked, replace the existing 137 file in the LMS folder, restart the Classic and any firmware update would use this new file version. But if the player already is running 137, no update would happen, right? I would need to "wipe" the existing player firmware somehow. Would the hardware reset wipe that, then the server would see the Classic is not current and force down the update?

In addition, this would affect all players not just the problem one. How do I deploy the bin file to the specific Classic only?

Risk of bricking this is minimal?

Thanks for the help.

atrocity
2017-04-05, 08:51
Next I compared against optical out on Logitech branded to an outboard DAC
= Logitech still a lot softer

Do you by any chance have hardware that can decode DTS and access to any DTS files? I'm curious if any or all of the players would have trouble passing the signal.

DTS and AC-3 are my quick and dirty tests for signal path purity and bitpefectitudiness because anything altering the signal along the way will make those streams produce only noise. It already seems pretty clear that something is altering the output, but I'd still try it just out of curiosity.

mushupork
2017-04-05, 10:03
I have no surround sound gear - sorry

Apesbrain
2017-04-05, 10:06
I imagine I could download the file you linked, replace the existing 137 file in the LMS folder, restart the Classic and any firmware update would use this new file version. But if the player already is running 137, no update would happen, right? I would need to "wipe" the existing player firmware somehow. Would the hardware reset wipe that, then the server would see the Classic is not current and force down the update?
Ok, I'm a little rusty on the old SB3/Classic but what I'd do is download a "fresh" firmware from the link I provided above, put it in the appropriate folder on your server, and tell the SB3/Classic to manually update its firmware. This is in the menus somewhere I think. Again, I no longer have an SB3/Classic set up so I can't confirm. The point of this is to write over any alterations in the problem firmware with a "clean" one.


In addition, this would affect all players not just the problem one. How do I deploy the bin file to the specific Classic only?
You are only manually updating the problem unit. The other unit should see the firmware as the same version as it already has and do nothing.


Risk of bricking this is minimal?
Well, risk is minimal but non-zero.

mushupork
2017-04-05, 10:09
ok - i wil try this when I get home from work.

mushupork
2017-04-05, 19:28
I downloaded a fresh copy of the firmware, renamed the old firmware, and moved the fresh copy to the same directory.

I then restarted the "problem" Classic while holding the ADD button to initiate a hardware reset to flash a new copy of the firmware.

Afterward I have the same issue - the sound output is still significantly lower than the other Classics I have.

Any other suggestions?

mushupork
2017-04-05, 19:38
Since I am flashing from 137 to 137 Is there any way for me to KNOW the firmware was updated? Log file etc.? All I can see in the LMS is the version it ius currently at not when it was updated or reflashed.

If not, could I get version 134 from http://update-origin.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.5.6/ , then replace the firmware in my LMS directory, do the same update, confirm I downgraded from 137 to version 134 then do the procedure again to go to 137 with the fresh version so I can KNOW the update happened as desired?

Mnyb
2017-04-05, 21:03
Since I am flashing from 137 to 137 Is there any way for me to KNOW the firmware was updated? Log file etc.? All I can see in the LMS is the version it ius currently at not when it was updated or reflashed.

If not, could I get version 134 from http://update-origin.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.5.6/ , then replace the firmware in my LMS directory, do the same update, confirm I downgraded from 137 to version 134 then do the procedure again to go to 137 with the fresh version so I can KNOW the update happened as desired?

Yes you can .

Mnyb
2017-04-05, 21:04
BTW why not try a really old version of the server too , to see if some setting is broken .

mushupork
2017-04-05, 21:42
Tried to go back to version 134 but it is not working. I renamed the 137 file and placed the 134 file int he same directory. I have tried the factory reset and when that did not work the xilinx reset. When I check the LMS afterward it says the player is still at 137.

What does teh squeezebox client do if it connects to an alternate LMS that is an older version that a previous server? It doesn't change firmware to match every server does it? For example, if U had two servers with different server versions (and different firmware for its clients) if I were to swap back and forth all day between servers the firmware would not get changed every time, right?

Mnyb
2017-04-05, 22:09
Tried to go back to version 134 but it is not working. I renamed the 137 file and placed the 134 file int he same directory. I have tried the factory reset and when that did not work the xilinx reset. When I check the LMS afterward it says the player is still at 137.

What does teh squeezebox client do if it connects to an alternate LMS that is an older version that a previous server? It doesn't change firmware to match every server does it? For example, if U had two servers with different server versions (and different firmware for its clients) if I were to swap back and forth all day between servers the firmware would not get changed every time, right?

Yes it should do that .

Did you reastart the server ? And the player ? I don't think you should rename the files .

It usually takes a while or an server restart for the players to see the new firmware ..

bpa
2017-04-06, 04:36
I don't think renaming the file will help as I believe version number is in the firmware itself.

You can enable logging of firmware update using player.firmware setting.

Edit the squeezebox2.version file to tell LMS what version of firmware to install in the player.

edit:
Remember some version of LMS are incompatible with some versions of firmware so if problems arise you may have to install an old version of LMS to get the player working again ( I think this will not apply to last few version of firmware but IIRC scrolling and maybe mysqueezbox.com access were changed around these versions).

mushupork
2017-04-07, 08:59
Instead of replacing firmware versions in the LMS install folders, can I manually force a firmware update on the SB3 directly or must I use the LMS to make the update?

Where can I download older versions on the LMS software?

If I connect the SB3 to an older LMS, which will have older firmware files associated, can I expect that the firmware will automatically be rolled back from 137 to the firmware version of the older LMS?

Would I need to do a reset to factory defaults and then connect to the older LMS to get the firmware update to the older version to happen?

Thanks.

bpa
2017-04-07, 09:27
I doubt if different version of firmware is a productive line of enquiry. I would go back to first principles and review the whole issue.


Instead of replacing firmware versions in the LMS install folders, can I manually force a firmware update on the SB3 directly or must I use the LMS to make the update?
You must let LMS to do the update. You can force a version using the ".version" files in the firmware directory.


Where can I download older versions on the LMS software?
Normally from the slimdevices downloads directory ( http://downloads.slimdevices.com/) or for in between code changes the github repository. https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver


If I connect the SB3 to an older LMS, which will have older firmware files associated, can I expect that the firmware will automatically be rolled back from 137 to the firmware version of the older LMS?
Yes but only if the 137 is indicated (i.e. according to the .version file) not to be compaitble with the older version of LMS.


Would I need to do a reset to factory defaults and then connect to the older LMS to get the firmware update to the older version to happen?
I haven't done it for ages - but it only needed to change LMS server from the SB player firmware menu (v. old version of LMS may not be compaitble to switch player from web pages) .

mushupork
2017-04-07, 11:11
"I doubt if different version of firmware is a productive line of enquiry. I would go back to first principles and review the whole issue."

bpa: what other line of testing would you suggest? I have tried everything that has been suggested so far and included a detailed summary and process.

mushupork
2017-04-07, 18:41
For what it is worth I did install Squeezebox server 7.5.1 (LMS) on my secondary PC. I then connected 2 SB3's to the new instance LMS.

Both SB3's automatically have their firmware set to 130 when they are connected. No manual intervention is required.

I synchronized playback on a single music file and then A/B'd the sound. I have the same results as before. When both SB3's have their output volume set to 50, the Logitech branded one is significant softer. Increasing the Logitech branded one to 80 makes it so that perceived output volume is the same between units.

The audio quality seems identical once volume is balanced. So again, if this were a standalone machine it would be perfectly fine.

Mnyb
2017-04-07, 19:21
For what it is worth I did install Squeezebox server 7.5.1 (LMS) on my secondary PC. I then connected 2 SB3's to the new instance LMS.

Both SB3's automatically have their firmware set to 130 when they are connected. No manual intervention is required.

I synchronized playback on a single music file and then A/B'd the sound. I have the same results as before. When both SB3's have their output volume set to 50, the Logitech branded one is significant softer. Increasing the Logitech branded one to 80 makes it so that perceived output volume is the same between units.

The audio quality seems identical once volume is balanced. So again, if this were a standalone machine it would be perfectly fine.

How are they at 100%

mushupork
2017-04-07, 19:48
same as before - volume difference but no way to equalize since they are maxed out and fixed at 100%.

bpa
2017-04-08, 01:25
I believe the difference is due to hardware. AFAIK the design and basic component specification of the SB3 didn't change between Slimdevices and Logitech - the production line did change. IIRC When Logitech took over, the SB3 production line was moved to a Logitech facility and there was a change component sourcing to use Logitech supply chain.

Different production lines will also imply different QC and also different aging behaviour.

The only way to be sure is to open the players up and compare.

Mnyb
2017-04-08, 01:43
I believe the difference is due to hardware. AFAIK the design and basic component specification of the SB3 didn't change between Slimdevices and Logitech - the production line did change. IIRC When Logitech took over, the SB3 production line was moved to a Logitech facility and there was a change component sourcing to use Logitech supply chain.

Different production lines will also imply different QC and also different aging behaviour.

The only way to be sure is to open the players up and compare.

The strange part is that the difference is also there on the digital out at 100% volume.
Which is really not possible.

Therefore , did OP really comected the diffrent players to the exact same input ? Not just the same dac or ht amp ?

bpa
2017-04-08, 02:11
The strange part is that the difference is also there on the digital out at 100% volume.
Which is really not possible.

Therefore , did OP really comected the diffrent players to the exact same input ? Not just the same dac or ht amp ?

Whenever I see a problem which seems to be unbelievable - I always go back to basics: reevaluate measurement and make the test as simple as possible.

- Measurement method - if DAC output are really different at all rates then it should be possible to buy a cheap spdif input and capture digital output. This would prove if there is difference but not explain why ? If they are the same then it does not explain why OP hears a difference.

If there is no difference - why is OP able to hear a difference - is the method flawed in some way ? For example,
- Streams should be sent to player as PCM - avoid any extra processing in player.
- Check players pref settings in pref file - make sure no "hidden" differences - just to be sure.
- log & check slimproto message (e.g. AUDG message) for players and compare to ensure all settings and gain are identical.

Apesbrain
2017-04-08, 07:17
Did you ever tell us whether there was a CUSTOM-CONFIG.CONF file on your server?

mushupork
2017-04-08, 19:26
I swapped inputs on the amp as part of testing to be sure the audible difference is not in the amp. A few rimes actually. It wasn't

My testing is mostly not using the digital outputs as that is not how I use these. I did however connect a simple DAC as requested to verify whether the issue was in the analog output of the SB3 only. The volume was the same so it is not. 0

I also tested using Internet radio and Pandora which I don't normally use but I think takes weird plugins etc out of the equation,

I did a clean install of the LMS software on a different PC/server. If the brains of this really do come from the server this should eliminate any software settings as the cause, right? It there is a dramatic volume difference between both the optical output as well as the Fixed Analog out at 100%

As for this being described as "unbelievable" I am not sure how to reply. On a volume scale of 100 steps I have to increase the volume by 30 steps to balance the sound between synchronized SB3s. 50 on one vs 80 on the other. If it were a step or two maybe it could be observer error but 30 steps is practically a 1/3 of the range. It seems unbelievable to me that the hardware itself cannot be a possible explanation but I am following through on all requested steps to prove otherwise.

If we are at a loss here I can just accept it is different. I was hoping for a reason but I will survive if i don't get one :-)

Mnyb
2017-04-08, 21:30
Whenever I see a problem which seems to be unbelievable - I always go back to basics:
- log & check slimproto message (e.g. AUDG message) for players and compare to ensure all settings and gain are identical.

That's sounds reasonable what are the log settings for that ?

And yes there is an unknown factor here we readers are unaware of :) that surely would explain this when we know it .

Connecting to the same DAC input and capture it afterwards .

Any PC with spdiff or toslink input ? You can view the files in various programs and even use audiodiffmaker if you want .

Mnyb
2017-04-08, 21:38
And to make it simple .

100% volume at the exact same digital input should make them equal ( as any other such device ).
That's not about what kind of squeezebox it is.
There is no hardware difference between these players that can explain this , it's basically some minor things mostly cosmetic, they did not really redesign anything .when logitech acquired the product .

IF not .

The volume are different even if think they are equal , not 100% on one player due to some setting difference .

There some other flaw in the testing methodology .

Mnyb
2017-04-08, 22:57
Just a longshot .

What do the players reports as at the info page in the web UI ( settings/info )

The mac id does it corresponds to the sticker under each player ? It should begin with 00:04:20 .

Just check don't publish them on this site.

bpa
2017-04-09, 01:17
That's sounds reasonable what are the log settings for that ?

And yes there is an unknown factor here we readers are unaware of :) that surely would explain this when we know it.

Enable logging for network.protocol.slimproto tpo DEBUG to get full values of "audg" message.

The audg can have a few version but it usually contains in order (amongst other data) the "old volume", "digital volume control", "preamp volume control" and "new volume".

To confirm setting of players are identical check server.prefs and there is a "group" of settings for each player. The volume realted settings are there as well as lots of other settings (in alphabetical order). The volume related settings to check could include analogOutMode, digitalVolumeControl, disableDac, preampVolumeControl, transitionType, transitionSmart, replayGainMode, remoteReplayGain. The "pitch", "bass", "treble" can be ignored as they are for SB1. AFAIK "polarityInversion" is not used by SB3.

emalvick
2017-04-10, 08:48
Reading all this, I can't help but think that this is just all due to a difference of hardware between the two players, potentially at the outputs.

The question of 100% and digital output, would only hold if the OP uses a digital output preferably to the same receiver, amp, etc.

Other outputs are not necessarily going to be equivalent because there would be a conversion within the device itself, which is apparently the problem.

However, I would ultimately say this is only a problem if you want to operate the devices at volumes where the differences become problematic (i.e. you are so high you can't compensate).

It is a bit of a curiosity, but unless one wants to disassemble the squeezeboxes to compare parts, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Mnyb
2017-04-10, 09:46
Reading all this, I can't help but think that this is just all due to a difference of hardware between the two players, potentially at the outputs.

The question of 100% and digital output, would only hold if the OP uses a digital output preferably to the same receiver, amp, etc.

Other outputs are not necessarily going to be equivalent because there would be a conversion within the device itself, which is apparently the problem.

However, I would ultimately say this is only a problem if you want to operate the devices at volumes where the differences become problematic (i.e. you are so high you can't compensate).

It is a bit of a curiosity, but unless one wants to disassemble the squeezeboxes to compare parts, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thats the thing OP claims that the 100% volume at the same digital input at the same DAC differs between two players digital output ?? Some key info is missing. Or did he realy test at the same input ? even digital inputs can have gain in HT recivers for example

mushupork
2017-04-12, 11:58
MACS: I confirmed all MAC addresses are 00:04:20:xx:xx:xx.

Simple test: Last night I connected the two SB3s that I had connected to the test LMS to the original LMS running the current software version. Both players automatically did a firmware update to firmware 137

I then placed them side by side physically.
Via the LMS I synchronized them to play a single long music file.
I also set each to "output level is fixed at 100%".
I physically connected a simple outboard DAC to my amp.
I then moved the toslink cable from one player to the other several times to listen for differences.

There is a significant volume difference between the units even when connected to an outboard DAC and when connected via the same cable to the same input on the amp. Without the ability to adjust the volume I can't measure the difference except to say it is significant

I believe this isolates the units themselves as there were no other hardware devices in the chain.
I believe this rules out software settings too since both untis were synchronized playing the same file from the same server.

I don't know how to enable debug logging on these (slimproto?). Even if I did, if the logfiles say the volumes are the same but they are not audibly the same this doesn't tell me anything. Of course if the log shows differences that is another story - but would it tell me what to change to make the units sound the same?

bpa
2017-06-01, 07:00
I don't know how to enable debug logging on these (slimproto?). Even if I did, if the logfiles say the volumes are the same but they are not audibly the same this doesn't tell me anything. Of course if the log shows differences that is another story - but would it tell me what to change to make the units sound the same?

WebUI Settings/Advanced/Logging/network.protocol.slimproto to DEBUG and click Apply.

If log shows a difference then the problem is definitively software and not hardware. Other logs would be used to trace the problem back to origin.

onliner
2017-09-12, 05:58
i wil try this when I get home from work.