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john greenwood
2017-02-13, 11:11
I see that 7.9 has added a "Compilations" menu item (at least I think it's new to 7.9). However, that seems to have created problems elsewhere. For instance some of my so-called compilations no longer show up at all under Genre/Artists (which is my primary search method). Others are split into multiple albums. Some are not compilations as I define the term, but I'm not sure how to tell that to LMS. I've been looking for patterns, but I have not found one yet.

Edit. I should add that I see no Genre/Various Artists listings. I do have some that show up with (Multiple Artists) as the artist, but I'm pretty sure that's an issue with JRiver, and they do not include the albums I am referring to.

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 07:14
So far, the only way I have found to avoid the issue is to make sure that none of my albums are treated as compilations. That's not a real problem for me as I did not use the tag/categorization for anything. But it turns out to be easier said than done. LMS seems to be rather stubborn about keeping some albums as compilations - even after I give all the tracks on them an (invented) single album artist.

So let me ask, is there a definitive list of criteria that LMS considers when categorizing albums as compilations? I've already discovered that if the tracks are stored in a sub-directory of e:\iTunes\compilations, LMS is likely to (but does not always) treat them as compilations. This is true even after I have unchecked the Compilation box in iTunes and re-indexed in LMS. Does using the word "Various" as part of the invented album artist name cause it to be treated as a compilation? If so, are there other words to avoid. And one specific question relating to JRivers tagging system - would LMS distinguish between "Album Artist" and "Album Artist (auto)." It seems to do this sometimes but not always.

garym
2017-02-15, 10:43
So far, the only way I have found to avoid the issue is to make sure that none of my albums are treated as compilations. That's not a real problem for me as I did not use the tag/categorization for anything. But it turns out to be easier said than done. LMS seems to be rather stubborn about keeping some albums as compilations - even after I give all the tracks on them an (invented) single album artist.

So let me ask, is there a definitive list of criteria that LMS considers when categorizing albums as compilations? I've already discovered that if the tracks are stored in a sub-directory of e:\iTunes\compilations, LMS is likely to (but does not always) treat them as compilations. This is true even after I have unchecked the Compilation box in iTunes and re-indexed in LMS. Does using the word "Various" as part of the invented album artist name cause it to be treated as a compilation? If so, are there other words to avoid. And one specific question relating to JRivers tagging system - would LMS distinguish between "Album Artist" and "Album Artist (auto)." It seems to do this sometimes but not always.

if an album has any track that has a different artist (or artists), then LMS will treat it as a compilation. For example I could have a Steve Earle album, but on one track the ARTIST tag has "Steve Earle; Lucinda Williams" then the album will be treated as a Compilation. To solve this I make sure that any album I have that has any track artist that differs, I also use an ALBUM ARTIST tag. So in the earlier example, I'd simply make the Album Artist: Steve Earle. problem solved.

For albums I want to be compilations I simply make sure I have the COMPILATIONS tag set to a value of "1" (without the quotes). If not a compilation, I don't have the tag at all.

I don't typically use the ALBUM ARTIST tag (except as noted above) and in the situation where I want an artist under different names to show up in the same place in browsing artists (for example, Miles Davis, Miles Davis Quintet, Miles Davis Sextet, etc.). And on some compilations I may add an ALBUM ARTIST such as "Bob Dylan" when the compilation is a Bob Dylan tribute album and I want it to show up when I browse to "Bob Dylan" albums. Other than these cases I leave the Album Artist tag empty.

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 10:56
if an album has any track that has a different artist (or artists), then LMS will treat it as a compilation. For example I could have a Steve Earle album, but on one track the ARTIST tag has "Steve Earle; Lucinda Williams" then the album will be treated as a Compilation. To solve this I make sure that any album I have that has any track artist that differs, I also use an ALBUM ARTIST tag. So in the earlier example, I'd simply make the Album Artist: Steve Earle. problem solved.

For albums I want to be compilations I simply make sure I have the COMPILATIONS tag set to a value of "1" (without the quotes). If not a compilation, I don't have the tag at all.

I don't typically use the ALBUM ARTIST tag (except as noted above) and in the situation where I want an artist under different names to show up in the same place in browsing artists (for example, Miles Davis, Miles Davis Quintet, Miles Davis Sextet, etc.). And on some compilations I may add an ALBUM ARTIST such as "Bob Dylan" when the compilation is a Bob Dylan tribute album and I want it to show up when I browse to "Bob Dylan" albums. Other than these cases I leave the Album Artist tag empty.

If only that worked for me. I have several albums where all of the tracks have the same artist and a matching (the same) album artist. But LMS still treats them as compilations. I had a lot of albums where that was the case when the ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST contained the word "various." Changing "various" to "assorted" seems to have solved the problem in most instances, but not all.

And how do you get access to the COMPILATIONS tag? I've tried to do it in JRiver and MediaMonkey, but I can't see how. In iTunes it's accessible as a checkbox, but that's no help for my FLAC files.

And I still have no explanation for why a number of my so-called compilations do not appear at all when I search by genre/artist.

kidstypike
2017-02-15, 11:57
If only that worked for me. I have several albums where all of the tracks have the same artist and a matching (the same) album artist. But LMS still treats them as compilations. I had a lot of albums where that was the case when the ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST contained the word "various." Changing "various" to "assorted" seems to have solved the problem in most instances, but not all.

And how do you get access to the COMPILATIONS tag? I've tried to do it in JRiver and MediaMonkey, but I can't see how. In iTunes it's accessible as a checkbox, but that's no help for my FLAC files.

And I still have no explanation for why a number of my so-called compilations do not appear at all when I search by genre/artist.

I use mp3tag to tag my files as I want them, (yes, it does FLAC too), and I let nothing else, and I mean nothing else get their filthy hands on them.

You mention JRiver, MediaMonkey and iTunes, and then expect LMS to play good for you?

garym
2017-02-15, 12:09
I use mp3tag to tag my files as I want them, (yes, it does FLAC too), and I let nothing else, and I mean nothing else get their filthy hands on them.

You mention JRiver, MediaMonkey and iTunes, and then expect LMS to play good for you?

Agree. I use mp3tag. If there is no COMPILATION tag I simply add one with a value of 1 using mp3tag.

garym
2017-02-15, 12:12
And I still have no explanation for why a number of my so-called compilations do not appear at all when I search by genre/artist.

What are your settings on this page in LMS > Settings (this is from mine, I'm on 7.9)

22134

garym
2017-02-15, 12:14
If only that worked for me. I have several albums where all of the tracks have the same artist and a matching (the same) album artist. But LMS still treats them as compilations.

Odd. Are all the tracks of the album contained in the same subdirectory?

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 12:27
I use mp3tag to tag my files as I want them, (yes, it does FLAC too), and I let nothing else, and I mean nothing else get their filthy hands on them.

You mention JRiver, MediaMonkey and iTunes, and then expect LMS to play good for you?

I use JRiver to do my tagging. I installed MediaMonkey yesterday just to troubleshoot the problem. Never done any tagging with it. If I look back three or four years, I was using iTunes then, but I've done a fairly extensive overhaul in the interim.

And just for the record, JRiver worked fine for me until 7.9.

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 12:28
Odd. Are all the tracks of the album contained in the same subdirectory?

Yes. At this point, except for classical (more than half my collection) my problem is effectively resolved. I still have a couple of albums that show up as compilations, but I can also find them under genre/artist.

With respect to classical, I think if I insert a manufactured Album Artist name I can resolve the issue.

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 12:33
What are your settings on this page in LMS > Settings (this is from mine, I'm on 7.9)

22134

My "Various Artists" box is blank. That certainly explains the connection to Compilations.

All else the same except the number of entries for "New Music Limit.

kidstypike
2017-02-15, 12:34
I assume ypu do a "Clear library and rescan" after making changes to your tags?

A "look for new and changed media files" doesn't really tidy up all changes.

john greenwood
2017-02-15, 12:43
I assume ypu do a "Clear library and rescan" after making changes to your tags?

A "look for new and changed media files" doesn't really tidy up all changes.

Several full scans in fact. I may do "look for new . . ." when just testing a theory by editing one album.

BJW
2017-07-30, 16:31
see the links in my sig, and be aware that its advisable to do all the following imo:

1. keep all files from any one CD in one folder.
2. only use comp=1 tags if u want them, don't use any others. will force comp status.
3. del all disc tags. (optional, but may solve weird issues)
4. treat TPE2 as Album Artist in settings
5. group comps together
6. change the blank default string value for what to name a comp in settings to ANYTHING that is not likely to be a string in your collection, like: " -.-Various Artists -.- " to avoid bug 9532
7. assign actual Album Artists values to everything even if its redundant
8. clear and rescan

rmariger
2018-02-19, 10:17
I too am frustrated with how the software catalogues compilations. All of the proposed solutions above fail for me. I have run tests with only three albums in the database:


1. A solo album for which artist = albumartist = artistsort = trackartist = “Brickman, Jim”;

2. A compilation album with artist = actual artist including one track with artist = “Brickman, Jim”; and albumartist = artistsort = “Windham Hill Artists”.

3. To demonstrate a flaw on the order in which artists are listed, a solo album for which artist = albumartist = artistsort = trackartist = “Cohn, Mark”

For all three albums, COMPILATION is not filled (have also tried “0” with no change in behavior).

I am using Logitech Media Server Version: 7.9.1 - 1516947667 @ Fri Jan 26 07:06:13 CUT 2018. My setting are the same as in Post #7 of this thread. (In particular, “Group Compilation Albums Together” is checked.)

The resulting listings under Artist includes three Artists:


Cohn, Marc


One album with correct tracks


Brickman, Jim


Solo Album, with correct tracks


Compilation Album, with the one track with Artist = “Brickman, Jim”


Windham Hill Artists


Compilation Album, with correct tracks


Contrary to my wishes, the compilation album is listed under artist Brickman, Jim. Even worse, the artist “Brickman, Jim” is not in alphabetical order. “Brickman, Jim” is ordered just prior to the albumartist associated with the compilation album that includes a track with artist “Brickman, Jim”. (I’ve tried more solo album artists, and this seems to be the rule.)

My solution is very much suboptimal. I create a tag trackartist that has the correct artists, and I populate the artist field with the same entry as albumartist. I then pre-pend trackartist to the track title.

I suggest that the software be modified so that albums for which there is an albumartist, the ARTIST tag varies, and does not have a tag COMPILATION = 1, be catalogued under the albumartist and that the squeezebox player display ARTIST-TITLE. The software should treat an album as a compilation only if there is a tag COMPILATION = 1.

dolodobendan
2018-02-22, 08:17
I suggest that the software be modified so that albums for which there is an albumartist, the ARTIST tag varies, and does not have a tag COMPILATION = 1, be catalogued under the albumartist and that the squeezebox player display ARTIST-TITLE. The software should treat an album as a compilation only if there is a tag COMPILATION = 1.

I think it's more a tagging problem than a problem with how LMS handles it. For example:

Roger Waters, The Wall: Life in Berlin. The album has different artists for each track.


It is NOT listed as a compilation but listed under Roger Waters (=ALBUMARTIST)
The Artists for the tracks are listed ONLY in Album Artists, if they also have an Album in the collection*)
The COMPILATION tag is NOT set.


The players display:

Another Brick in the Wall II
Roger Waters, Cyndi Lauper (=Album Artist, Artist)

Your suggestion would omit Cyndi Lauper. I, for one, would hate that.

*) There's a setting to use two lists for Album Artists and All Artists you might want to use. (Settings / My Music)

To conclude: Never set ALBUMARTIST unless in cases like the one I described above, never set COMPILATION unless it is a compilation, be super careful when using *SORT tags and always check if there are some remnant tags messing things up.

dasmueller
2018-02-22, 09:10
What I do w recordings like the Roger Waters mentioned is add the artist to the track title-works for me

garym
2018-02-22, 11:04
1. In general I leave ALBUM ARTIST blank.
2. If I have an album that has at least one track with differing artists, then I must include an ALBUM ARTIST otherwise LMS will automatically treat this as a compilation CD (even though there is no COMPILATION tag).
3. On a true compilation, I include the COMPILATION tag with a value of "1". I may or may not include an ALBUM ARTIST. Typically I leave blank, but see #4 below.
4. On some compilations I include ALBUM ARTIST just so the album is referenced under a particular artist. That is, I have Bob Dylan tribute compilation album, and even though Bob Dylan does not appear on any tracks, I use Bob Dylan as ALBUM ARTIST so that this tribute album shows up if I'm browsing albums under "Bob Dylan"
5. If one has Sort tags for an artist on any track in your collection, all references to that artist will be sorted using the sort tag (even if only a single track on one album, and you have dozens of other albums that don't have a sort tag for that artist).
6. I don't personally use any sort tags.

With all this in my own tagging, I don't have any issues with albums showing up as compilations that shouldn't.

BJW
2018-02-22, 13:05
My guess is no major overhaul will be done to the system to fix the many systemic issues, but if there was going to be such an attempt, it would be wise to rethink servers whole approach, which is completely bizarre and odd and not similar to any other software.

For instance, tags have albumartists and artists, there is no tag trackartist, it shouldn't be invented as a db kludge to serve supposed database needs. That shouldn't exist in server. The mere presence of an albumartist tag shouldn't mean something is a comp or not, and shouldn't mask files with which it has a string conflict for naming comps.

Queries should ignore comp status altogether unless comp status is the point of the query, (or at least part of the explicit overall point)

Perhaps most importantly, the whole browsing system is whacky and it shouldn't be home > artists or home > albums or home > genres or whatever, with limitations and so on for each. For instance, art should be a toggle u can turn off or on from any browsing mode. U should be able to name any results set u define, and create or delete any mode or breadcrumb like list, and define it as deep as u like. U should be able to include, or suppress, artists from comps in a given result set.

So I should be able to create a view called G1 and G2 just as two example. G1 would be everything listed by Genre, then albumartists. G2 would be Comps, then genre. For these or others art could be toggled on or off. Now imagine naming other views, and using years, composers, artists, genres, etc, in whatever combo u want, as deep as u want, with or without art.

So much of what is whacky in server is bc of legacy thinking, instead of a fresh, common sense approach that would be much more intuitive and also make more sense under the hood of server, making scans and queries faster and more reliable.

BJW
2018-02-22, 23:23
Ha, I fully admit I'm no programmer, but hell, there's a reason this didn't take off. I think users can make constructive criticism without being attacked by German dogs, ha.

dolodobendan
2018-02-23, 09:50
The mere presence of an albumartist tag shouldn't mean something is a comp or not

I do not see this behavior on my system. Maybe you should check your tags and settings.

garym
2018-02-23, 09:54
I do not see this behavior on my system. Maybe you should check your tags and settings.

The only possibility I'm aware of is one case: If one does NOT have ALBUM ARTIST filled in *and* there is at least one track on the album that has a differing artist or artists, LMS will treat that album as a compilation album (even though there is no COMPILATION tag).

dolodobendan
2018-02-23, 16:05
The only possibility I'm aware of is one case: If one does NOT have ALBUM ARTIST filled in *and* there is at least one track on the album that has a differing artist or artists, LMS will treat that album as a compilation album (even though there is no COMPILATION tag).

That's the one I know, too.

@BJW: "If a file has explicit 'ALBUMARTIST' tags the server recognizes, it will NEVER be classified as a comp/VA album, UNLESS it ALSO has COMP=1 tags."

That's from the first link in your signature.

BJW
2018-02-23, 17:00
I know, I wrote it. :)

What I am saying, is absent any comp tags, server will always decide something isn't a comp simply bc it also has albumartists tags. This is just one example of erroneous assumptions the software makes at a foundational level. Something isn't necessarily not a comp just bc it also has albumartist tags.

That was my point.

dolodobendan
2018-02-23, 17:58
I know, I wrote it. :)

What I am saying, is absent any comp tags, server will always decide something isn't a comp simply bc it also has albumartists tags. This is just one example of erroneous assumptions the software makes at a foundational level. Something isn't necessarily not a comp just bc it also has albumartist tags.

That was my point.

We seem to have a fundamentally different music collection. For my collection it works great, for yours, well, not. But however this is implemented, one of us would have to set COMPILATION (as long as there's no switch between these options). Now you have to set it to one, I can leave it blank. Otherwise I would have to set it to zero and calling it "one example of erroneous assumptions", while you may leave it blank. Win some, lose some?

But I agree that the search could be natively more flexible tag-wise and could allow for (more) filters (=submenus) aka make more use out of the database.

BJW
2018-02-24, 12:25
We seem to have a fundamentally different music collection. For my collection it works great, for yours, well, not. But however this is implemented, one of us would have to set COMPILATION (as long as there's no switch between these options). Now you have to set it to one, I can leave it blank. Otherwise I would have to set it to zero and calling it "one example of erroneous assumptions", while you may leave it blank. Win some, lose some?

But I agree that the search could be natively more flexible tag-wise and could allow for (more) filters (=submenus) aka make more use out of the database.

It has nothing to do with my collection or yours. What I am saying in this one particular example is that server starts off with a logical fallacy, which once again is a file, if it has no comp tag=1, and it does have albumartist tags, is by definition, not a comp.

So imagine the common tag instance where a user ripped a comp CD, has differing artists on it per track, but a common albumartist value, such as "Various Artists" but again, no explicit comp tag.

That is quite common among CD ripping software. Server handles that poorly. And I haven't even yet mentioned bug 9523 which would "hide" the above from view altogether.

That's just one example. Server inventing tag fields like "trackartist" that don't exist in tags is another. The other half of what I was saying is that queries could be simplified and quicker if they ignored comp status altogether except for those queries that explicitly need to know comp status.

And finally being able to name and define your own "views" based on whatever tag and or art criteria u select is another thing I wish we had. The whole "home > whatever" navigation server uses is bizarre, and has limitations based on point of entry that are frustrating and not intuitive, and frankly unnecessary if an approach similar to what I am proposing were adopted.

BJW
2018-02-24, 13:09
82.458 Tracks are scanned in 112 minutes - that means each track is scanned in ~0,0814960343447573 secs...

I have roughly the same amount of tracks. Winamp can scan them magnitudes of order faster when freshly scanned, and exponentially faster when rescanned, and unlike server, a clear and rescan is basically never necessary.

In addition, winamp has faster queries and allows for a lot more views or "smartviews" as they call them.

Try playing around with winamp, it's actually a lot of fun to use.

That isn't to say winamp is perfect, it has its own flaws and limitations, but it's def better in these regards.

BJW
2018-02-24, 14:34
Yapp - do you want to know some background ?

Peter Pawlowski once one one the Winamp developer started another Player called foobar 2000 cause of winamp was (@ 2000) too much gimmickblowup....

If you want to compare a "player" like Winamp with lms you need to compare Itunes or something else not winamp.

Why? I mean, what a dodge of the point I made! Why not respond to that point?

Winamp, and I am sure foobar and most others, probably even iTunes, which I despise, are faster and more reliable scanners, than server.


Well thats not the case....
A single Track has a Artist Tag thats used by lms!

Maybe u are not aware, but servers DB has albumartist, artist, AND trackartist. Most people, if not all, only have the first two in their tags, not the third. It's a db kludge, imo.


If you want to see all tracks from an artist - you need to put all tracks from all artists together - winamp cant do that!

It does it fine for me. I can browse by artist or albumartist in winamp.


If one Album has more than one Artist - you need to make a decision. Is it a Compilation or not.

Actually, not true. Albumartist tags will in winamp, and most other software, group all tracks together from one CD even if there are differing artists.

Deciding if something is or isn't a comp, is a separate matter and more complicated than just recognizing if a given CD has one or more differing artists on it.

Comp status however, is really a user's own subjective judgment on a case by case basis, and more of an afterthought as a criteria property. Server is way too entangled with it.


eg. Crossroads from Eric Clapton is a Best of from Eric Clapton with all of his Hits with all of his former Bands.
If you want to see that as an compilation - you dont need anything further.
If you dont want it as a compilation you can use

eg Albumartist "Eric Clapton" on all (not one) Track where the "Track" Artist is not Eric Clapton
Eric Clapton;Derek and The Dominos as "Track" Artist



Yes, I agree, doesn't change any point I made.


Feel free to use any Software you want and listen to music you like use our Tricks or not its up to you.

Thx.


If you would understand the decisions (not logical fallacy) that are needed to provide all the hidden stuff in a database that make using & quering fast you would see the "we must die way one or another" thats needed to do so.

Ah, I see, I'm not as smart as u.

As I said, and I stand by it 100%, determining that something is NOT a comp just bc it has an albumartist tag present, (absent an explicit comp=1 tag), IS a logical fallacy, a demonstrably false assumption.

Why argue against something obvious?

dolodobendan
2018-02-25, 14:08
It has nothing to do with my collection or yours. What I am saying in this one particular example is that server starts off with a logical fallacy, which once again is a file, if it has no comp tag=1, and it does have albumartist tags, is by definition, not a comp.

So imagine the common tag instance where a user ripped a comp CD, has differing artists on it per track, but a common albumartist value, such as "Various Artists" but again, no explicit comp tag.

I really have to imagine that, because I do not have such discs.



And finally being able to name and define your own "views" based on whatever tag and or art criteria u select is another thing I wish we had. The whole "home > whatever" navigation server uses is bizarre, and has limitations based on point of entry that are frustrating and not intuitive, and frankly unnecessary if an approach similar to what I am proposing were adopted.

I only wish for natively supported tags ("work", "recording", "custom") and the possibility to create menu structures to apply these tags (Like Erland's CustomScan/-Browse, but natively supported).

dolodobendan
2018-02-25, 14:15
As I said, and I stand by it 100%, determining that something is NOT a comp just bc it has an albumartist tag present, (absent an explicit comp=1 tag), IS a logical fallacy, a demonstrably false assumption.

Why argue against something obvious?

It's a design choice that got your collection wrong sometimes and mine never. And it seems that this assumptions works for most people. These people all would have to set compilation=1 just for you not having to set it to zero.

BJW
2018-02-25, 15:02
I really have to imagine that, because I do not have such discs.

i bet u do have such discs, if u have any comps at all. what u might not have is a ripper that rips discs that way, or maybe u changed how it rips such discs.

again, its VERY common. WMP, winamp, EAC, etc... and many others, either out of the box or configured to, will assign an artist tag and a common albumartist tag on all things they rip, comp or not, and no comp tags at all, comp or not.

server should accommodate common use cases, esp since it doesn't itself ever edit tags.


I only wish for natively supported tags ("work", "recording", "custom") and the possibility to create menu structures to apply these tags (Like Erland's CustomScan/-Browse, but natively supported).

i have np with that.

BJW
2018-02-25, 15:07
It's a design choice that got your collection wrong sometimes and mine never. And it seems that this assumptions works for most people. These people all would have to set compilation=1 just for you not having to set it to zero.

it seems it works for most people? and you know this how?

putting aside that this product has failed, it worked for audiophiles who were willing to workaround issues. thats not most people, i assure you.

most people use things like WMP, winamp, itunes, etc... server does not handle a lot of those cases properly out of the box, not even close.

btw, i never set comp=0 and i never would need to. i do set comp=1 on those items i want server or apple to see as a comp, which i do with mp3tag. but i do not really need to do that at all for my purposes, the albumartist tag is enough.

finally, bug 9523 is an unaddressed issue, and another "out of the box" problem.

dolodobendan
2018-02-25, 15:59
it seems it works for most people? and you know this how?

putting aside that this product has failed, it worked for audiophiles who were willing to workaround issues. thats not most people, i assure you.

Because "i assure you"? As I said before and will repeat one last time: The scenario you describe isn't an issue with MY collection, because I do not have discs with different artists and an album artist that is also a collection. I'm still trying to imagine such albums.


most people use things like WMP, winamp, itunes, etc... server does not handle a lot of those cases properly out of the box, not even close.

Winamp is still a thing?


btw, i never set comp=0 and i never would need to. i do set comp=1 on those items i want server or apple to see as a comp, which i do with mp3tag. but i do not really need to do that at all for my purposes, the albumartist tag is enough.

And again, just because in an alternate reality it would be easier for you, it would mean more tagging for the rest of us (because we would have to set compilation=1 as I've mentioned at least twice now).


finally, bug 9523 is an unaddressed issue, and another "out of the box" problem.

As you already mentioned, LMS is no longer officially supported.

garym
2018-02-25, 17:46
If one searches the forum you’ll find many threads and 100s of posts from 8-10 years ago related to the issues of compilations, use of various artists, the concept of tracksrtist, etc. there were lots of opinions and folks could never agree. to be fair, I was initially caught off guard with Lms treating some of my albums as compilation even though the comp tag wasn’t there. Eventually I figured out how to tag to avoid the issue.

But as with 10 years ago, there are lots of conflicting opinions.
p.s. I have no dog in this hunt. Merely pointing out that this issue goes way back.

Mnyb
2018-02-25, 18:16
I have a LOT of disc with albumartist tag that never gets treated as a comp or finds their way into ”Varius artist” ?

When does this happen exactly

BJW
2018-02-26, 16:10
I have a LOT of disc with albumartist tag that never gets treated as a comp or finds their way into ”Varius artist” ?

When does this happen exactly

i'm not quite sure what you're asking? i'll attempt to answer this way, but please let me know if u need further clarification or if i missed your point:

i have about 85k tracks or so, and thousands of CDs ripped. while a lot of them have no artist mismatches, a lot of them do. some are in fact comps. but a lot of them aren't. (and keep in mind, what is and isn't a comp is ultimately a user's subjective per-cd judgment at best). anyway, absent an albumartist tag (or comp=0), server just assumes any CD with an artist mismatch are ALL comps. that rarely is the desired outcome for all those types of CDs.

similarly, if they all have albumartist tags, server just assumes NONE of them are comps, (assuming no comp=1 tag is also present), which again is rarely the desired outcome of all those types of CDs.

worse yet is bug 9523, which in some server views will cause an "out of the box" problem, where any user who has a CD ripped with either an artist, OR albumartist tag value of: " Various Artists " (minus quotes and spaces) ...and no comp tags, will experience a string conflict that hides such examples from the user. as i said earlier, a lot of CD rippers will use that string out of the box, while simultaneously not assigning any comp tags. thats a pretty bad bug for server to have.

BJW
2018-02-26, 16:45
Because "i assure you"? As I said before and will repeat one last time: The scenario you describe isn't an issue with MY collection, because I do not have discs with different artists and an album artist that is also a collection. I'm still trying to imagine such albums.

so as i said earlier, it has nothing to do with your collection, or my collection. the whole point of server is to present and play anyone's collection, as server finds it. ergo it has to be flexible, b/c it doesn't rip music, or edit tags, etc. it should, as a design choice, handle common use cases. not everyone uses itunes, but it should handle itunes collections, right? same goes for any popular ripper, be it WMP, EAC, Winamp, dbpoweramp, and on and on... server shouldn't just be blind to other common use cases. it shouldn't put the onus on the user to make the user conform to server, that a recipe for failure. the onus should be on server to properly handle differing common use cases, (within common-sense-reason of course, and obviously garbage in garbage out, but thats not the point here).

so anyway, i am not sure what you mean when u say ur still trying to imagine my scenario? do u think it impossible? unlikely? what?

while not the case for all CDs, it is very common for a CD to have one or more artist mismatches on it. lets assume for this example, the CD is a comp:

Encomium:

1. Misty Mountain Hop - 4 Non Blondes
2. Hey Hey What Can I Say? - Hootie And The Blowfish
3. D'yer Mak'er - Sheryl Crow
4. Dancing Days - Stone Temple Pilots
5. Tangerine - Big Head Todd And The Monsters
6. Thank You - Duran Duran
7. Out On The Tiles - Blind Melon
8. Good Times Bad Times - Cracker
9. Custard Pie - Helmet With David Yow
10. Four Sticks - Rollins Band
11. Going To California - Never The Bride
12. Down By The Seaside - Robert Plant & Tori Amos

many rippers will parse that so the file has the right title and artist tag (ergo artist mismatches). they then assign an albumartist tag of: Various Artists ...and no comp=1 tag. its a very common thing amongst many common and wildly popular rippers.

in such a case, the mere presence of an albumartist tag tells server its not a comp, even tho in reality it is. and worse, bug 9523 (the string conflict) then hides this example from view! but even if there were no string conflict, server still incorrectly says this isn't a comp.

so what about the above is it that you can't imagine?


Winamp is still a thing?

honestly, deal with the points made on merit, attacking winamp is a dodge.


And again, just because in an alternate reality it would be easier for you, it would mean more tagging for the rest of us (because we would have to set compilation=1 as I've mentioned at least twice now).

no, thats not true. all these things could be worked out in preferences. i would like the ability to toggle off/on the scanners VA detection logic. so u would get your way, and i would get mine. turn off the VA detection logic, and scans get quicker, and there is less unexpected behavior. in such a case, only an explicit Comp=1 tag would make server see something as a comp.


As you already mentioned, LMS is no longer officially supported.

indeed. there's a lot of reasons for this, but i think the unintuitive interface, as well as the placing of the onus on the user to conform to it, instead of the other way around, is a big reason why.

Mnyb
2018-02-26, 17:36
i'm not quite sure what you're asking? i'll attempt to answer this way, but please let me know if u need further clarification or if i missed your point:

i have about 85k tracks or so, and thousands of CDs ripped. while a lot of them have no artist mismatches, a lot of them do. some are in fact comps. but a lot of them aren't. (and keep in mind, what is and isn't a comp is ultimately a user's subjective per-cd judgment at best). anyway, absent an albumartist tag (or comp=0), server just assumes any CD with an artist mismatch are ALL comps. that rarely is the desired outcome for all those types of CDs.
O
similarly, if they all have albumartist tags, server just assumes NONE of them are comps, (assuming no comp=1 tag is also present), which again is rarely the desired outcome of all those types of CDs.

worse yet is bug 9523, which in some server views will cause an "out of the box" problem, where any user who has a CD ripped with either an artist, OR albumartist tag value of: " Various Artists " (minus quotes and spaces) ...and no comp tags, will experience a string conflict that hides such examples from the user. as i said earlier, a lot of CD rippers will use that string out of the box, while simultaneously not assigning any comp tags. thats a pretty bad bug for server to have.

Ok it was the other way around album artist tag and they never gets treated as a comp I misunderstood that ok .

My 2c which is an inbetween pow I’m not in any special camp regarding this .

But bug 9523 is not good but inherently possible to workaround for an end user ( hence no dev time needs to be spent unlike issues where the end users can do nothing ) , use the setting and call it something else zzzvarius artist ;) and never look there again .
“Fixing it “ will wreck it for so many other users , don’t rock the boat please ,if you find these old treads about it you understand .
But I do think it’s a bug not a feature .

But I also think these old taggers does it wrong giving something an “various artist” artist tag is just wrong ( no various artist is playing any instrument on my records ) . an “various artist” album artist tag is “ok” as it can be interpreted as “ this records is done by several different people that usually don’t form a band “ so I buy that in some cases but it does not necessarily mean that it is a compilation . So these taggers can’t just arbitrary set the comp tag to “1” iether .

So you are rigth imo that what is a comp is enterirly up to the end user half of my “various artist” albums are not compilations
The user should decide at rip time and set the comp tag to 1 or 0 or don’t use the comp tag.
With hindsight I realise that one should abandon the “various artist” tag altogether and just set different artists per track.

But I think the real problem is to actually employ any server logic at all ! beside looking at if the comp tag is 1 or 0 and I think that if there is no comp tag it should never be treated as a compilation this logic seems to be some idea to defeat one wrong ( bad automatic tagging to various artist ) with another wrong ( auto assume that stuff are compilations ) .

To make LMS “work” one has to then defeat bug 9523 which is not such a pain set it to something else and then magically look under “v” for various artist ( if you use the tag ) compilations or not they be there .

The problem that may be more work is to after the fact set comp tags to get desired effect .
I’ve also ripped for 20 years some of my tags are just bad done when I did not know better .

So that leaves what I think it’s the real bug automatically assume that something is a compilation based on artist mismatch .
(The functionality that ultimately gives you bug 9523 ).

So yes automatically assume that things are compilations is the real bug . Does it have number yet and I go and vote on that one.
But that may be an even more disruptive change :/ it’s been like this for 15 years ....




So forgive my rusbish English here is the short condensed version of my thoughts :

I think that the only deciding factor for setting anything as a compilation is the presence of the comp tag with value “1” nothing else no magic should be invoked these records should then be present in LMS special menu for these records .

That menu has an unfortunate default name .

due to bug 9523 you may need to change that ,but that’s is not a big problem as you can avoid the string conflict with one simple settings change . No need to touch your files . But yes it’s a bug .

I rather se a change to remove all comp logic beside the comp tag , but that may pool all the “ various artist “ records under that name sorted in “v”
Then I can make new decisions to whether they should have comp status or not .
This can be disruptive to other users .

I think these mess originated from the fact that old id3v1 taggers did use the various artist for the purpose of invoking comp status ( which is wrong ) .
This then got further compounded when someone made the design decisions in LMS to make menu at the top before A to present compilations nice feature , but then blew it by making the weird decisions that albums with multiple artist automatically are compilations .

I don’t think LMS should adhere to old practise set by other apps if iTunes did x and Winamp did y , do what correct instead and ditch the legacy even if it hurts trying to comply to what used to be will ultimately give rise to more horrors like 9523 .

garym
2018-02-26, 17:52
Excellent summary Mynb. Yes, too bad it couldn’t be simply COMPILATION = 1 treated as comp otherwise not.

Mnyb
2018-02-26, 18:06
Also I realised that I nowadays use the additional browse modes plugin which gives me a compilation top level item in the UI if I so desire which I do .

So this special artist name is moot if you use additional browse modes so you relay can set it to “Mister Mxyzptlk“ or “ zzzzzzzzbug9523” and have the compilation menu instead .

And also if you have separate artist and album artist view set ( is this allso additional browse modes or just 7.9.1)
The specially named folder is in album artist

When I retire I will sort out my tags ;)

garym
2018-02-26, 20:04
Also I realised that I nowadays use the additional browse modes plugin which gives me a compilation top level item in the UI if I so desire which I do .

So this special artist name is moot if you use additional browse modes so you relay can set it to “Mister Mxyzptlk“ or “ zzzzzzzzbug9523” and have the compilation menu instead .

And also if you have separate artist and album artist view set ( is this allso additional browse modes or just 7.9.1)
The specially named folder is in album artist

When I retire I will sort out my tags ;)

yes. 7.9.1 browse menus make things much better. We all need something to do in retirement. 😳

dolodobendan
2018-02-27, 06:04
absent an albumartist tag (or comp=0), server just assumes any CD with an artist mismatch are ALL comps. that rarely is the desired outcome for all those types of CDs.

similarly, if they all have albumartist tags, server just assumes NONE of them are comps, (assuming no comp=1 tag is also present), which again is rarely the desired outcome of all those types of CDs.

Maybe that's true in your case. Again, I'm quite happy how things are handled.

BJW
2018-02-27, 09:23
Maybe that's true in your case. Again, I'm quite happy how things are handled.

You keep trying to make this about my case or yours. That isn't the point. We both know how to workaround most of the issues to get something close enough to what we personally desire.

However, what I am talking about are fundamental flaws and logical fallacies for common use cases. If there was a willingness to approach the situation fresh, many improvements could be made, and it would not require you, or anyone, to change your current tagging methods.

BJW
2018-02-27, 09:32
Excellent summary Mynb. Yes, too bad it couldn’t be simply COMPILATION = 1 treated as comp otherwise not.

It could be. Erland submitted a patch to add a pref that did that, namely toggle VA logic detection. When off, only explicit comp tags would be recognized.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8324

d6jg
2018-02-28, 02:17
I don't wish to start a bigger argument but earlier someone suggested that most ripping software managed to tag the files correctly.
I was thinking about this statement and I am not sure it is entirely true.
Most ripping software uses online sources for its tags whether that be MusicBrainz, Discogs etc and in my experience those are just as prone to be wrong in the first instance as LMS's subsequent interpretation of the tags when writing the database.
Personally I don't think there is too much wrong with LMS's implementation of Compilations IF you know how it works. I can't speak for Classical music as I don't have that much but certainly my experience with popular music is that if the stuff is tagged correctly in the first place then there are no issues. Inevitably this means doing it carefully and not replying 100% on auto rippers / taggers.

On a connected topic what is really meant by a "Compilation" ?

In old money a copy of "Now, that's what I call Music" is a Various Artists compilation but "Best of Cream" is a compilation by single artist - Cream. I have never considered the latter to be a compilation in LMS terms and I don't know how you could tag it to be so. Anyone?

Mnyb
2018-02-28, 03:51
It could be. Erland submitted a patch to add a pref that did that, namely toggle VA logic detection. When off, only explicit comp tags would be recognized.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8324

I’ll see if i voted on that already

garym
2018-02-28, 04:28
but "Best of Cream" is a compilation by single artist - Cream. I have never considered the latter to be a compilation in LMS terms and I don't know how you could tag it to be so. Anyone?

I wouldnt call it a comp either, but if I wanted it to show up under compilations in lms, I would only need to add a tag, COMPILATION = 1.

d6jg
2018-02-28, 05:05
I wouldnt call it a comp either, but if I wanted it to show up under compilations in lms, I would only need to add a tag, COMPILATION = 1.

Yes but that would put it into "Various Artists" (or whatever you called it in Settings).

In traditional physical filing I'd have the following under Cream

Fresh Cream (1966)
Disraeli Gears (1967)
etc
etc
and then compilations at the end
Best of Cream (1970)
Heavy Cream (1973)
etc

I can't see how you could ever achieve this in LMS except accidentally by sorting via Album / Year and it happened to produce the correct order.

My OCD also doesn't like the fact that LMS can sort by Album / Year but then alphabetically so that if a band released two albums in the same year they can end up being in the wrong order if the band in question didn't have the foresight to name them in line with LMS's requirements.

dolodobendan
2018-02-28, 05:44
I can't speak for Classical music as I don't have that much but certainly my experience with popular music is that if the stuff is tagged correctly in the first place then there are no issues. Inevitably this means doing it carefully and not replying 100% on auto rippers / taggers.

It's not good. If you're bending the tags like crazy (artist=composer, album=work etc.) you have no problems with compilations. But if you don't and tag correctly and there's two works on a disc, let's say a violin concerto (soloist, orchestra and conductor) and a symphony (minus the soloist), this indeed would be a compilation.

Having said that, I kind of owe BJW an apology, because I do have some disc where this indeed would annoy me, but due to this tag bending necessity to browse my classical collection, I never encountered this. I slowly re-tag my collection to make use of Erland's plugins, that makes browsing the classical collection far more enjoyable.

So, BJW, for what's it worth, I'll upvote this one, too (if someone tells me how to do that).


On a connected topic what is really meant by a "Compilation" ?

In old money a copy of "Now, that's what I call Music" is a Various Artists compilation but "Best of Cream" is a compilation by single artist - Cream. I have never considered the latter to be a compilation in LMS terms and I don't know how you could tag it to be so. Anyone?

No, but there are weird people out there.

dolodobendan
2018-02-28, 05:51
My OCD also doesn't like the fact that LMS can sort by Album / Year but then alphabetically so that if a band released two albums in the same year they can end up being in the wrong order if the band in question didn't have the foresight to name them in line with LMS's requirements.

Isn't there ALBUMSORT? Never really thought about it, but what happens if you'd use year-month ("1979-11") for year?

d6jg
2018-02-28, 05:54
Isn't there ALBUMSORT? Never really thought about it, but what happens if you'd use year-month ("1979-11") for year?

Good point
I shall experiment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mnyb
2018-02-28, 06:30
More thinking .

I upvote erlands patch to turn of VA logic , you do that in the byggzilla btw.

d6jg is rigth .

You just cant trust taggers and especially not thier dB and accept the tags rigth off , check them manually each rip .

You cant build a good app if you try second guess the usaul user wrongs combined with the usual tag app and iTunes wrongs and then try to automagically fix them.
LMS is not telpathic whats rigth differs for everyone .

Hence less automation is sometimes better if LMS could ignore the comp automation and only listen to comptag=1 then I decides what is a comp for me :)

garym
2018-02-28, 06:47
Yes but that would put it into "Various Artists" (or whatever you called it in Settings.

Yes, but...

i call compilations “compilations” rather than various artists. I also use 7.9.1 and have setting for showing album artists and artists menu items separately.

With this in mind, I just tested. If I add a compilation = 1 to Heavy Cream album and put Cream as album artist, when I browse to the artist Cream, I see this album listed. I *also* see it listed if I browse to COMPILATIONS and down to Heavy Cream. So it shows in both places.

I do do this a lot. For example, I use Bob Dylan as album artist on a tribute comp album. This way the tribute album also shows up under Bob Dylan when browsing by artist.

dolodobendan
2018-02-28, 06:56
I upvote erlands patch to turn of VA logic , you do that in the byggzilla btw.

Thank you, I casted my vote.

garym
2018-02-28, 06:56
Oddly, Roon will call something like Heavy Cream a compilation. Its definition of a comp includes a greatest hits approach even if single artist. I dont like this approach (one can undo this in Roon but it is a manual approach so would take a lot of work).

d6jg
2018-02-28, 08:13
Oddly, Roon will call something like Heavy Cream a compilation. Its definition of a comp includes a greatest hits approach even if single artist. I dont like this approach (one can undo this in Roon but it is a manual approach so would take a lot of work).

That is (was) a standard definition of a compilation album and is exactly how Discogs displays Heavy Cream - i.e. in the Cream section - not in Albums, not in Singles & EPs, but in the third category - Compilations.

BTW Heavy Cream is one of the better Cream best of compilations out there !!

garym
2018-02-28, 08:14
BTW Heavy Cream is one of the better Cream best of compilations out there !!

agree. :cool:

BJW
2018-02-28, 19:15
and slowly the tide turns... :)

this is what i was saying from the start. if we take a fresh approach and consider these higher level questions, we can come up with a better, more logical system based on common use scenarios than what we have now, both in terms of scanning, and presentation (UI). these aren't merely academic points, they would result in under the hood efficiencies, that would result in faster, more reliable scans, and faster more reliable queries, as well as more dynamic user made (and named) views that had no arbitrary restrictions based on the "home > whatever" structure server uses now.

it would be great if someone like Erland were still around, so we could fork 7.9.1 into a project that attempted to bring these changes about, without messing up those who have gotten used to how server currently is, and hopefully merge them eventually.

first, its pretty obvious that everyone is going to have their own ideas about what is, and is not a comp. what is perfectly clear, is that currently server determines this in a rather arbitrary way, which might work for some, but should be opt in at best. implement Erlands patch, and make the default that only comp=1 tagged files will be seen as comps to server. comp status is merely another file property, like an album tag, or title tag.

second, comps shouldn't exist in server as a special kinda separate category. its a property of a file, like any other file property. it may, like albumartist tags, impact on grouping tracks together, but its not more important than another tag. it might also be useful in certain queries, like those that want to include, or exclude comps in a given queries results set. but its not some kind of actual thing, which is the way server treats it (and conflates it) now.

finally, server should come with a few default "views" that the user can add to, delete from, and or edit. the views should all be custom nameable. the queries used to create the views should all be user definable, and include factors beyond tag values, such as folder location (like winamp smartviews, using infinite and/or statements). the behavior of the views, such as with or without artwork, suppressing or including artists from comps, etc, should again be up to the user, and switchable on the fly.

i'm not fully fleshing it out here, but those would be some of the broad goals of a forked project. b/c of the current way server does queries, where it conflates for example comp status, comp names, and tag values, under the hood queries will be more efficient. i fully support adding the fields for classical, like "works" and so on, and managing classical libraries would be part of the goal.

Mnyb
2018-02-28, 22:56
Mherger has actually extended LMS to be easier for anyone to extend ”aditional browse modes plugin”
Is just one thing that came about out off this.

If i understod him correctly . If someone today wanted to write ”erland like plugins” that changes how we browse and search and creates menus based on whatever tag you like it would be easier to do.

Btw i don’t really believe in “common use cases” then we have to inherit cr*p from id3v1 foobar2000 iTunes et al .
Was it Henry ford that talked about “faster horses”.
I think its possible to do better .

Additional browse modes:

Today out of the box it gives you some new options to explore.

BJW
2018-02-28, 23:37
i am fully aware and agree that 7.9.x is better, and so on... but frankly it pales in comparison to winamp or other such apps. its clunky and awkward, ultimately frustrating, and while i'm fully aware it is unlikely to change, my points remain valid.

its funny, anytime i bring this to light, i get the same predictable blowback, "nothing is wrong, the problem is you or other users, use the workarounds, it can't possibly be improved, use something else if u hate it so much" blah blah blah instead of people just acknowledging the obvious: server has problems that at the root, are flaws in assumptions, in design, in handling predictable and expected scenarios, and it compounds those flaws in how it presents what it scans. altogether, those flaws also cause problems under the hood and reduce efficiency and flexibility.

i'm not holding server to some impossible standard, i am simply comparing it to its peers, other music players. this isn't to say that server has no redeeming aspects, it does, and thats why i still use it, there are a few things only server can do, (although its getting to the point they won't be worth it any longer). but its a music server only, it doesn't create or edit. given that, it should be more competent than it is at scanning and presentation. i'm not even talking speed here, i'm just talking acting intuitively and flexibly, that's all i'm after.

Mnyb
2018-03-01, 09:19
I agree on flexibility.

But common use cases are less common than one migth think .
Sadly the business of playing digital files has no real standards or agreed opon ways to do
Stuff .

Observe how badly digital downloads are tagged rigth from the vendor or label :/

Indont even think tags is the solution .

You can look at roon that reinvented stuff for the better .
But at the same time did some akward design decisions .
Some find there offering tempting.

At the moment i haven’t really banged into to a really hard limit of LMS so I’m still here.

More things could happen if people with skills wanted to join the project .

At the moment its on some kind of progressive and advancex maintainence , not really developed to some goal

dolodobendan
2018-03-01, 13:32
Mherger has actually extended LMS to be easier for anyone to extend ”aditional browse modes plugin”
Is just one thing that came about out off this.

If i understod him correctly . If someone today wanted to write ”erland like plugins” that changes how we browse and search and creates menus based on whatever tag you like it would be easier to do.

The plugin itself, maybe (for someone who knows how to do it), but I'm not sure if whatever tag I like would just work right now, because they would have to be included in the scans first (otherwise Erland could have just used the native database). Or did I miss something here?

BJW
2018-03-01, 17:01
But common use cases are less common than one migth think .
Sadly the business of playing digital files has no real standards or agreed opon ways to do
Stuff .

i know what you're saying, but i don't agree... many major rippers, like WMP, winamp, EAC, etc... will tag without setting comp tags. this is a common scenario that is to be expected. the job isn't to expect perfection, the job is to expect highly likely scenarios.


+1
We must remember LMS was ahead of the time, but now its only supported by a single guy.
LMS (and its predecessors) was always techie - you need to know how things work - if you want to use it and adapt something here and there.

yes, i'm aware the software/product failed. but he still does some work, so why not point out what might be looked at? or encourage others to work on what is open source?

and yes, it was always techie, which imo lead to that failure, but not on purpose. the mere fact that it included "itunes integration" shows that it was trying to anticipate non-techie, common use scenarios, at least, once upon a time. whats more common than itunes?


If someone thinks he should use another Software cause that fits better to his enviroment or needings there is nothing else as wave goodbye and wish him the very best with his decision.

the goal should be to conform server to the broadest common usage cases as possible/practical, rather than trying to conform users to server. that thinking lead to failure.


The plugin itself, maybe (for someone who knows how to do it), but I'm not sure if whatever tag I like would just work right now, because they would have to be included in the scans first (otherwise Erland could have just used the native database). Or did I miss something here?

afaik, server only scans in the tags its been told to scan in. yes, u can drill down in the UI and see all tags in a file, but afaik thats just a tag dump done at the time u actually drill down to view the raw tags, and only the ones server has been told to recognize at scan time are actually in the DB.

it would be good if we could list all known tags [field values] server already reads into the DB, and make a list of all the ones we would want added, be it for classical, ratings, what have you.

dolodobendan
2018-03-01, 18:26
it would be good if we could list all known tags [field values] server already reads into the server, and make a list of all the ones we would want added, be it for classical, ratings, what have you.

Since my only strong opinion here is about how classical music is neglected, here are the two basic things that are missing and would greatly enhance user experience for people with classical music:

1. Browsable tags:

With only these two additional tags it is possible to browse through the whole collection without having to misuse other tags:


Work: While modern music can easily (in comparison) be accessed by just two tags, artist & album, this is not sufficient for classical music, because composers often don't have albums but works. These works are interpreted by artists. Normally you want to browse the composer's work and then choose a recordings or you want to listen to a specific genre and then select composer, work and an unique recording.
Recording: While work is (more or less) unique when looking at one composer, there are normally different recordings out there. So there's a need to distinguish them and artist is not enough (see Karajan's Beethoven cycles). I use [Soloartist / ]Conductor / Orchestra (year of recording) [index number (if I have two or more of the same recording)] to make it unique. The recording tag is always the last filter to apply.


I think these are the two very basic tags everyone could agree to.

If there's a need for more tags, I would recommend a special purpose tag (or two) for whatever she or he likes. For example, I recently tagged "occasion" for the Bach cantatas which works very nice (slow but nice) with CustomBrowse. Maybe someone feels the urge to browse for opus numbers (pointless, but hey).

2. Submenus

Now, while there is a need for Work and Recording, there's also a need for one more sub menu. While for modern music you can browse to "Pink Floyd" and then select "The Wall" (thus using two filters, artist & album) you have to apply one to two more filters for classical music: composer & work & recording or genre & composer & work & recording.

For the menus, in my opinion, it would suffice to create some basic menus (composer / work / recording, genre / composer / work / recording etc.) via some xml-file which can be edited for more menus (if someone really needs opusnumber / genre / composer / year or whatever people may come up with, it may be done there) rather than implement some GUI for building menus.

Maybe 2) is already possible with LibraryDemo?

d6jg
2018-03-02, 04:48
i know what you're saying, but i don't agree... many major rippers, like WMP, winamp, EAC, etc... will tag without setting comp tags. this is a common scenario that is to be expected. the job isn't to expect perfection, the job is to expect highly likely scenarios.



That is just not true. All ripping software uses some online database or other to get its tags. If the online database contains the wrong tags so will the resulting files.

dolodobendan
2018-03-02, 05:11
again its techie... but LibraryDemo is a very nice thing - my child loves the things i do with that.

I don't care about techie. :) Would you post your modifications here?

Btw., what's the main difference between this library plugin and Additional Browse Modes? If both apply filters, it should be pretty much the same, shouldn't it?



That is just not true. All ripping software uses some online database or other to get its tags. If the online database contains the wrong tags so will the resulting files.

Yes. I never rely on some online tags. There's always something wrong with it. Always.

BJW
2018-03-02, 14:31
1. Browsable tags:

<snip>

2. Submenus

Maybe 2) is already possible with LibraryDemo?

i like these ideas, and have np with/support them. can't speak to the plugin, b/c i haven't used it, (or Erlands). i think it would be good to see what other classical users might want besides the two fields you mentioned, as well as fields like ratings which has been a request for years. reading tag values that users actually use into the DB is the job of a music server, imo.

your submenus idea is probably more "doable" than my idea or reworking views altogether, but it illustrates why i am making the suggestion in the first place.

BJW
2018-03-02, 14:48
You know that itunes integration sometimes broke, cause itunes had changed?
You know that f*#!1ng Compilation Tag is a Itunes "Gummick"?

yes, i'm well aware that comp tags, which server relies heavily on, are an apple fudge. at this point, does it matter? comp tags are in FLACs, which apple doesn't even support in any meaningful way. they are a de facto standard now in almost all formats. i personally have no need at all for comp tags. i add them to my stuff merely as a courtesy for those who use my files with apple gear, (and to a much lesser extent, so server will see what i want it to as comps).

and btw, itunes integration was often broken, which to me meant it should have been removed, but they kept trying to use it regardless, b/c they wanted that (big non-techie) market.


Didnt you wrote sometimes somewhere here " scan should be faster?"
If you add "all" possible and unpossible tags - you need much more time for scanning and a lot more brain for the database handling....

yes, the scanner should be faster, but i never said at the expense of sensible usage. that was in the context of me saying that for many, if not most people, the VA detection logic was unnecessary and slowed down the scanner, and caused other problems, all of which is true. (ergo, add a pref to turn it off to aid the scans)

the scanner should be as fast as is possible, while also getting the sensible job done. reading in all sensible tags to the DB is the job of a music server.

(you could have a scanner pref for reading only basic tags into the DB, vs all tags. it would have to be decided what minimum tags are basic. i do wonder what the impact of difference to scan times would be between the two? would it be meaningful?)


again its techie... but LibraryDemo is a very nice thing - my child loves the things i do with that.

what exactly does it do?

BJW
2018-03-02, 14:56
That is just not true. All ripping software uses some online database or other to get its tags. If the online database contains the wrong tags so will the resulting files.

ok, this is getting annoying. you completely missed the point of what i was saying.

first of all, i already said servers job is not to expect perfection, that of course garbage in will = garbage out.

the point i am making above, which is 100% true and not refuted by what you said, is that many rippers WILL create files with tags, (be they "correct" or not), that have fields like artist, albumartist, album and title filled in; but they will NEVER have comp tags.

that is an overwhelmingly COMMON scenario that server should expect. this is obvious. this is not controversial or up for debate. it is a FACT. what values are actually in those fields has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't matter if they are correct or not. the salient point is server will get lots and lots of files presented to it with all those values filled in, but no comp tags.

BJW
2018-03-02, 15:04
Yes. I never rely on some online tags. There's always something wrong with it. Always.

when i rip something, (mainly with EAC), i get the fields filled in by the online DBs, and then i edit them to correct them if necessary prior to the rip. this has been the case for what, 20 some years? sometimes i need to edit the tags after ripping too, if i overlooked something or want to change sorting or want to add comp tags, etc.

but just to be clear, that all has nothing to do with the fact, that most rippers don't assign comp tags at all (as part of the ripping process).

d6jg
2018-03-02, 15:13
ok, this is getting annoying. you completely missed the point of what i was saying.

first of all, i already said servers job is not to expect perfection, that of course garbage in will = garbage out.

the point i am making above, which is 100% true and not refuted by what you said, is that many rippers WILL create files with tags, (be they "correct" or not), that have fields like artist, albumartist, album and title filled in; but they will NEVER have comp tags.

that is an overwhelmingly COMMON scenario that server should expect. this is obvious. this is not controversial or up for debate. it is a FACT. what values are actually in those fields has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't matter if they are correct or not. the salient point is server will get lots and lots of files presented to it with all those values filled in, but no comp tags.

I repeat you are wrong. I have ripped CDs using iTunes (Windows & Mac), XLD, EAC, DbPoweramp, as well as the Linux ripper/tagged in Vortexboxe. I have never manually created any Compilation tags but lo and behold I have some albums where such tags exist. Where did they come from? The answer is obvious. They came from the online database that whichever ripper I used has used to create the tags. I can if you wish find you examples where the Compilation tag is by our definition correct and also where it is wrong but I assure you I have never created such tags manually nor do I believe that iTunes (which I dumped very early on) is the main culprit. Why do you persist in stating that ripping software does not create Compilation tags when patently they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BJW
2018-03-02, 15:41
I repeat you are wrong. I have ripped CDs using iTunes (Windows & Mac), XLD, EAC, DbPoweramp, as well as the Linux ripper/tagged in Vortexboxe. I have never manually created any Compilation tags but lo and behold I have some albums where such tags exist. Where did they come from? The answer is obvious. They came from the online database that whichever ripper I used has used to create the tags. I can if you wish find you examples where the Compilation tag is by our definition correct and also where it is wrong but I assure you I have never created such tags manually nor do I believe that iTunes (which I dumped very early on) is the main culprit. Why do you persist in stating that ripping software does not create Compilation tags when patently they do?

friend, u need help with reading comprehension. i never said ALL rippers don't set comp tags when they rip, i know some, like itunes, do. that was never in contention!

what i have been saying, is that a lot of rippers DON'T set comp tags at all, like winamp, EAC, WMP, etc... WMP is a very popular ripper in the marketplace, EAC is very popular here in these forums, etc. YOU ARE WRONG when you say EAC sets comp tags. if it suddenly does, thats news to me, and is a very recent development, but i suspect it still doesn't write comp tags, and never has.

i stated the situation 100% correctly and you are mischaracterizing and uncomprehending of what i said.

BJW
2018-03-02, 15:45
please please do not wrote something like thes unprooved and wrong things again...

Do your homework (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2483651)

Since my old employer is a audio content provider, i do know how things work eg. if you are in the gracenote content partner program (that was [or is] at this time the database behind Itunes)...

\edit
ahh the "most" is important - basically that whole sentence makes no sense ..
/edit

"dont feed the troll"

so now i'm a troll? what exactly did i say that was wrong? please, be specific, SHOW ME.

most rippers DON'T set comp tags! i gave a few very popular examples. thats all i need to do to prove the point that that's a common scenario server should expect!

you guys are arguing not against me, (although for whatever reason thats your troll motivation), but the truth is you are arguing against the obvious. what i said is FACT. not subjective, not an opinion, not up for debate.

d6jg
2018-03-02, 15:52
friend, u need help with reading comprehension. i never said ALL rippers don't set comp tags when they rip, i know some, like itunes, do. that was never in contention!

what i have been saying, is that a lot of rippers DON'T set comp tags at all, like winamp, EAC, WMP, etc... WMP is a very popular ripper in the marketplace, EAC is very popular here in these forums, etc. YOU ARE WRONG when you say EAC sets comp tags. if it suddenly does, thats news to me, and is a very recent development, but i suspect it still doesn't write comp tags, and never has.

i stated the situation 100% correctly and you are mischaracterizing and uncomprehending of what i said.

I didn’t say EAC specifically did at any point. I know it doesn’t.
You on the other hand have said that MOST don’t. I disagree. iTunes does. XLD does. The ripper in Vortexbox does. DbPoweramp (the paid version) allows you to choose before you rip. It is the only software that I know of that shows you pre rip whether the dB it uses has suggested a Compilation tag and allows you to overwrite the choice.
I suspect the free version if dbPoweramp does not offer this feature but can’t be sure.
Given that significant examples of Ripping software DO create Compilation tags why wouldn’t LMS use them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

d6jg
2018-03-02, 15:53
I didn’t say EAC specifically did at any point. I know it doesn’t.
You on the other hand have said that MOST don’t. I disagree. iTunes does. XLD does. The ripper in Vortexbox does. DbPoweramp (the paid version) allows you to choose before you rip. It is the only software that I know of that shows you pre rip whether the dB it uses has suggested a Compilation tag and allows you to overwrite the choice.
I suspect the free version if dbPoweramp does not offer this feature but can’t be sure.
Given that significant examples of Ripping software DO create Compilation tags why wouldn’t LMS use them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Btw Winamp and WMP are not good examples as ripping is not their primary purpose is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BJW
2018-03-02, 16:17
I didn’t say EAC specifically did at any point. I know it doesn’t.

good lord. to wit:


I repeat you are wrong. I have ripped CDs using iTunes (Windows & Mac), XLD, EAC, DbPoweramp, as well as the Linux ripper/tagged in Vortexboxe. I have never manually created any Compilation tags but lo and behold I have some albums where such tags exist. Where did they come from? The answer is obvious. They came from the online database that whichever ripper I used has used to create the tags.

see the BOLD above. come on man, knock it off.


You on the other hand have said that MOST don’t. I disagree. iTunes does. XLD does. The ripper in Vortexbox does. DbPoweramp (the paid version) allows you to choose before you rip. It is the only software that I know of that shows you pre rip whether the dB it uses has suggested a Compilation tag and allows you to overwrite the choice.
I suspect the free version if dbPoweramp does not offer this feature but can’t be sure.
Given that significant examples of Ripping software DO create Compilation tags why wouldn’t LMS use them?

wow, where to begin?

first of all, i never said server shouldn't use comp tags! i never would say such a stupid thing. i have been arguing for a pref to turn automatic VA logic detection off. i have been using common expected scenarios to illustrate the rationale behind the request.

secondly, it doesn't matter if its most or not, totally besides the point i was making, why u 2 focus on that is baffling. after itunes: WMP, winamp, and EAC, are 3 of the most popular rippers in marketshare. they don't set comp tags at rip. thats all that needs to be said for the purposes of my request. its not something to debate or argue over, its a simple, obvious FACT.

i don't know if dbpoweramp does the comp tag in the free ver or not, and either way, its irrelevant to the discussion. i've never even heard of XLD. but i am quite sure those 2 rippers, and Vortexbox represent a small minority of the marketshare, not that it matters a whit.

BJW
2018-03-02, 16:24
Winamp and WMP are not good examples as ripping is not their primary purpose is it?

wow. the bias of this forum is staggering. WMP alone rips exponentially more as a percent of overall user marketshare than probably everything else other than itunes combined. would i ever use WMP? only if everything else i use didn't work. but its not about what i use, or what users of this forum use, its about marketshare. winamp is probably next in line, and EAC somewhere after that, and there are plenty of other rippers that don't set a comp tag. XLD and Vortexbox and even dbpoweramp are niche by comparison, not that it matters. all that matters is ENOUGH rippers rip enough music without comp tags, to legitimize my point and request.

BJW
2018-03-02, 16:25
wait .. you didnt say anything wrong but you typed a lot and if your unable to see our answers where we already prooved your bullsh1t i cant help you and i wont.
last order last word i am out of fish....

actually, i proved you wrong. u misunderstood and continue to willfully imo, misunderstand, b/c you are more interested in attacking me, than the merits of the argument.

also interesting the implication that "typed a lot" is somehow indicative of validity. i think i'm beginning to understand your issues with logic.

d6jg
2018-03-02, 16:33
good lord. to wit:



see the BOLD above. come on man, knock it off.



wow, where to begin?

first of all, i never said server shouldn't use comp tags! i never would say such a stupid thing. i have been arguing for a pref to turn automatic VA logic detection off. i have been using common expected scenarios to illustrate the rationale behind the request.

secondly, it doesn't matter if its most or not, totally besides the point i was making, why u 2 focus on that is baffling. after itunes: WMP, winamp, and EAC, are 3 of the most popular rippers in marketshare. they don't set comp tags at rip. thats all that needs to be said for the purposes of my request. its not something to debate or argue over, its a simple, obvious FACT.

i don't know if dbpoweramp does the comp tag in the free ver or not, and either way, its irrelevant to the discussion. i've never even heard of XLD. but i am quite sure those 2 rippers, and Vortexbox represent a small minority of the marketshare, not that it matters a whit.


I didn’t say that all the rippers I used created Compilation tags. I merely said that I had used lots of different software to put into context the fact that I am aware that not all software is the same.
You have used 3 examples. WinAmp, WMP and EAC. In my view (and I suspect most others who frequent this forum on a regular basis) I wouldn’t bother with WinAmp or WMP. EAC is good but being freeware it lacks the polish and advanced features of dbPoweramp. If you have never tried that then I suggest you do.

My argument with your point is that you use 3 specific examples of ripping software as your driver to seek the removal of the existing Various Artist logic in LMS. 2 of the 3 aren’t rippers by design - it is an additional feature - to their main purpose. You have ignored the fact that a significant number of other pieces of software do use (or give you the option to use) Compilation tags. Personally I don’t like them but that’s my choice.

IMHO there is very little wrong with the logic in LMS when compared to other software of its ilk and I think Michael has a lot more pressing and important stuff that he wants to deal with.
On that note I am going to bed and will put my headphones on and listen to some music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BJW
2018-03-02, 17:03
I didnÂ’t say that all the rippers I used created Compilation tags. I merely said that I had used lots of different software to put into context the fact that I am aware that not all software is the same.
You have used 3 examples. WinAmp, WMP and EAC. In my view (and I suspect most others who frequent this forum on a regular basis) I wouldnÂ’t bother with WinAmp or WMP. EAC is good but being freeware it lacks the polish and advanced features of dbPoweramp. If you have never tried that then I suggest you do.

My argument with your point is that you use 3 specific examples of ripping software as your driver to seek the removal of the existing Various Artist logic in LMS. 2 of the 3 arenÂ’t rippers by design - it is an additional feature - to their main purpose. You have ignored the fact that a significant number of other pieces of software do use (or give you the option to use) Compilation tags. Personally I donÂ’t like them but thatÂ’s my choice.

IMHO there is very little wrong with the logic in LMS when compared to other software of its ilk and I think Michael has a lot more pressing and important stuff that he wants to deal with.
On that note I am going to bed and will put my headphones on and listen to some music.

look guy, i'm not trying to argue with you, or anyone. but you guys are arguing with me in ways that are just outrageous. and again, please leave the forum bias at the door. server should suit the marketplace, not this forum. i could count on both hands the amount of albums i've ripped with WMP and winamp combined, but its totally besides the point.

nothing i am saying is controversial. let me rephrase it and tell me what, if any part of it, is wrong, or you disagree with in some way:

1. LMS is a music server. it does not rip or edit files. ergo it should be expected to handle, out of the box, a wide array of common usage scenarios it will be presented.

any problem so far?

2. a lot of rippers set no comp tags.

agree? b/c that is a simple fact. it doesn't matter how many, it only needs be acknowledged that enough of the marketplace does not.

3. one common use scenario that server borks right out of the box is bug 9523, which is a string conflict. this commonly happens when a comp CD has been ripped and has no comp tags, yet does have the string Various Artists in the albumartist field; OR in the artist field (with the albumartist field blank). this album will then be hidden from some views in server.

trust me, that's a real and verified bug, and a common scenario server is presented with.

4. separately, the VA detection logic works for some users, but not all users. depending on the situation, something might be tagged "correctly" by a ripper, yet server will get it wrong, meaning classify something as a comp that isn't a comp, OR not classify something as a comp that IS a comp. (examples of both cases are common and not hard to find). given this, there should be an option to turn it off, which should also help with scan times, and reduce complexity. (this has nothing to do with comp tags, which should always be respected)

so contrary to what you said above, i am NOT arguing for its removal, merely a pref to turn it off.

any problem with that?

---

Erland already wrote the code for this pref. all Michael has to do is add it to the nightly beta, and let people try it. you guys are free to argue against the wisdom of the request, that may or may not be valid, but what you aren't entitled to is your own facts. the facts as i have laid them out are valid.

again, no wish to argue with you, but u can't simply say what i am talking about doesn't happen, b/c it does, and imo, should be addressed.

Mnyb
2018-03-02, 23:38
1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .

2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
“Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.


3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.

4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.

d6jg
2018-03-03, 05:50
1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .

2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
“Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.


3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.

4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.

I am in complete agreement with this point of view.

To base an an argument on 3 pieces of tagging software that don’t write Compilation tags when the one with the greatest market share (iTunes) and at least as many others DO write said tags is just ridiculous.

I have come across the Various Artists string bug but actually it was me that incorrectly populated the albumartist tag iirc. The workaround is indeed trivial. I agree it isn’t worth the dev effort as I am sure that Michael will have looked at it by now and the code changes required must be very significant otherwise he would have done it.

For the record if I see a Compilation tag I delete it immediately but my ripper / tagger of choice has too many other features I do like to throw it away and use one of the non Compilation tag variety. I will live with an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when it shouldn’t and know that when it happens I may need to re-tag.

Mnyb
2018-03-04, 05:21
We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .

LMS is no longer a comercial offering a “product” so it’s eventually upp to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what they want to spend thier time on .
Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls .

I also supose they don't do things that could be “disruptive” for some users or we there seems to be no consensus by the users .
.by that i mean the forum . The only user our devs are in dialogue with.

I would not try to argue on behalf some kind off “silent majority” or “typical user” .
Thats just not doable i say whats my opinion thats all i can do.

earthbased
2018-03-09, 08:20
We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .

LMS is no longer a comercial offering a “product” so it’s eventually upp to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what they want to spend thier time on .
Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls .

I also supose they don't do things that could be “disruptive” for some users or we there seems to be no consensus by the users .
.by that i mean the forum . The only user our devs are in dialogue with.

I would not try to argue on behalf some kind off “silent majority” or “typical user” .
Thats just not doable i say whats my opinion thats all i can do.

I use dbPoweramp for ripping. I try to remember to check tags before ripping CD. I always fill in Album Artist so if there are guest artists on some of the songs then it stays in Artist folder. If album is a true Compilation such as 'Original Club Ska' then I make sure the Compilation tag is True. If you search by Artist, LMS will search Compilations too.

Mnyb
2018-03-09, 08:32
I use dbPoweramp for ripping. I try to remember to check tags before ripping CD. I always fill in Album Artist so if there are guest artists on some of the songs then it stays in Artist folder. If album is a true Compilation such as 'Original Club Ska' then I make sure the Compilation tag is True. If you search by Artist, LMS will search Compilations too.

Yep , that it does .

Btw there is another recent improvement in 7.9.1 free text search , you will find your stuff

dolodobendan
2018-03-14, 06:09
Yep , that it does .

Btw there is another recent improvement in 7.9.1 free text search , you will find your stuff

And one to come, hopefully. :) (Right now, database IDs are scanned, too, generating "false" positives, see here (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108735-Full-text-search-missed-results&p=907980&viewfull=1#post907980).)

BJW
2018-10-09, 00:52
1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .

so you are saying this is NOT a FACT, to wit: many popular rippers do NOT ever set comp tags???

really? thats your point?

b/c it is demonstrably and obviously false.

this is not about "my" use case. this is about out of the box usage cases for MANY popular rippers. what is so hard to comprehend about that?

WMP, Winamp, EAC, and many more NEVER set comp tags. they just don't. and they represent a large segment, possibly even a majority of the marketplace. but getting hung up on how big a percentage of the market misses the point, b/c the point is whatever the amount, its big enough to matter!


2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
“Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.

back to this cannard. god, can we please get past the garbage in, garbage out ruse?

yes, it matters. why? it matters b/c if i am a user who say rips with EAC everything i want to, my music will show up as expected in everything, all other apps, as expected based on the metadata in the files, EXCEPT LMS!!! thats the whole point right there! its an out of the box bug in LMS, that doesn't even make any sense nor is easily found and diagnosed. there is nothing wrong btw with having "Various Artists" as your string for either field, there are many times thats the exact string users want in those fields, and its totally sensible. (and its also frequently the given string by the internet DB sources the ripper uses for VA titles, as one would expect)


3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.

thats your opinion bc it doesn't affect your usage case. but it did me and would others who might not even notice they are being affected by it or know its an existing bug at all.

also, something i haven't talked about a lot yet but is also true, queries could be much simplified by removing considerations for comps except when explicitly called for. this wouldn't change existing behavior but would greatly improve under the hood performance which is important on low powered devices, like NAS.


4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.

good lord, so you argued with me this whole time even though you agree with my request!?!?!? why????

yes, i am only asking for the pref, one that is already basically written by Erland. and i also agree with you that we should be able to disable automatic rescans prompted by settings changes, so we can set all the prefs as we like first, and then manually toggle a rescan to start.

in any case, there is no need for us to argue about all this, all i am asking for is a simple pref to turn off the VA detection logic, and a fix to the string conflict bug. once again, to be clear, this means that only explicit comp tags would be recognized as to comp status during a scan.

BJW
2018-10-09, 01:08
I am in complete agreement with this point of view.

To base an an argument on 3 pieces of tagging software that don’t write Compilation tags when the one with the greatest market share (iTunes) and at least as many others DO write said tags is just ridiculous.

no, whats ridiculous is to ignore the large part of the marketshare that does NOT write comp tags. THAT is ridiculous, preposterous, shortsighted, and buffoonery!

again, how big doesn't matter, its big enough is all that matters. and moreover, its embarrassing for server to have such an inelegant and goofy bug, as a string conflict for the term Various Artists. its inexcusable frankly.


I have come across the Various Artists string bug but actually it was me that incorrectly populated the albumartist tag iirc. The workaround is indeed trivial. I agree it isn’t worth the dev effort as I am sure that Michael will have looked at it by now and the code changes required must be very significant otherwise he would have done it.

no one even knew the bug existed until i documented it. thats the worst aspect of the bug, it isn't obvious! so a normal regular user, esp if they have a large library, might not even notice at first something is missing, thats the insidious nature of it. and even if they do, they may not realize what is missing or why? its an ugly out of the box bug that should be FIXED.


For the record if I see a Compilation tag I delete it immediately but my ripper / tagger of choice has too many other features I do like to throw it away and use one of the non Compilation tag variety. I will live with an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when it shouldn’t and know that when it happens I may need to re-tag.

fantastic, but nothing to do with anything i am saying.

let me be very clear:

i am for LMS ALWAYS respecting explicit comp tags. ALWAYS.

all i want, is for LMS to stop conflating strings with comp status and/or hiding music out of the box as a result. and i also want a pref to turn off so called "VA detection logic" that is how server detects prefs based on rules that may or may not classify something as a comp correctly, when no comp tags exist.

i am not asking for the moon, this is not some huge ask.

and once again, it is likely current DB queries could be simplified where comps are concerned as well, so under the hood performance could be improved.

DJanGo
2018-10-10, 03:57
[OT]
There is something going on with that Compilations...

A compilation album comprises tracks, which may be previously released or unreleased, usually from several separate recordings by either one or several performers.

If by one artist, then generally the tracks were not originally intended for release together as a single work,[1] but may be collected together as a greatest hits album or box set.
If from several performers, there may be a theme, topic, time period, or genre which links the tracks,[3][4] or they may have been intended for release as a single work—such as a tribute album

LMS always "thinks" the later ones are always Compilations. Unless there is no other hint like Albumartist or compilations tag the first one cant be a compilation.

There might be a better solution but unless you have a very good idea how to handle it and the skills to type the code for that handling we had to live with the fruits we able to get friom the lms tree.