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Free Lunch
2004-12-27, 15:37
The new menu system is driving me nuts. I am trying to setup 5.4.0 on
a new Squeezebox for my folks. This system will need to run without
trouble for a full year before I will likely be able to service it
again.I still run 5.2.1 on my slimp3 because of various problems in
the new releases.

The settings have long allowed you to specify the contents of the main
menu - browse genre, browe artists, settings, etc. But in the new
version, 'browse music folder' is GONE. WHY???

MP3DIR is /mp3/artists. Under that directory, I have created 'live'
and 'commerical'.

I want them to be able to choose between live and commercial when
browsing the music folder. But they don't even appear.

When 'browse music' is selected, it does not even take you to the
music. Instead, it takes you to a sub-menu. How do you configure the
contents of that menu? I do not even want the sub-menu. As an
example, I already have 'browse genre' in the top level menu. I do not
want it repeated in the sub-menu.

This results in a very confusing setup. How am I supposed to explain
the differences to my folks? Especially in cases where tags may not
be accurate. Why bog them down by FORCING them to deal with the
difference between "browse artists" and "browse albums"?

How did this go?? "Hey, here's an idea. Let's suddenly change the menu
system with no way to revert to the old behavior so users will have
no choice if they want to run the latest 'stable' release."

I look forward to new releases to IMPROVE PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS and FIX
BUGS. Having to accept someone else's "ideal" new menu layout is
baggage I do not want.

Slimserver development will likely continue to go wander until the
development is forked to emphasize core product reliability and
performance vs. new features.

Looks like this will be yet another 5.2.1 installation.

Jack Coates
2004-12-27, 15:54
Free Lunch wrote:

You do not exist.

> The new menu system is driving me nuts. I am trying to setup 5.4.0 on
> a new Squeezebox for my folks. This system will need to run without
> trouble for a full year before I will likely be able to service it
> again.I still run 5.2.1 on my slimp3 because of various problems in
> the new releases.
>
> The settings have long allowed you to specify the contents of the main
> menu - browse genre, browe artists, settings, etc. But in the new
> version, 'browse music folder' is GONE. WHY???
>

Root > Browse Music > Browse Music Folder.

> MP3DIR is /mp3/artists. Under that directory, I have created 'live'
> and 'commerical'.
>
> I want them to be able to choose between live and commercial when
> browsing the music folder. But they don't even appear.
>

Sounds like you're not actually browsing the music folder, but rather
browsing by artist or album.

> When 'browse music' is selected, it does not even take you to the
> music. Instead, it takes you to a sub-menu. How do you configure the
> contents of that menu? I do not even want the sub-menu. As an
> example, I already have 'browse genre' in the top level menu. I do not
> want it repeated in the sub-menu.
>

So why don't you go in the web interface to Player Settings > Menus and
put Browse Music Folder into the root menu?

> This results in a very confusing setup. How am I supposed to explain
> the differences to my folks? Especially in cases where tags may not
> be accurate. Why bog them down by FORCING them to deal with the
> difference between "browse artists" and "browse albums"?
>
> How did this go?? "Hey, here's an idea. Let's suddenly change the menu
> system with no way to revert to the old behavior so users will have
> no choice if they want to run the latest 'stable' release."
>
> I look forward to new releases to IMPROVE PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS and FIX
> BUGS. Having to accept someone else's "ideal" new menu layout is
> baggage I do not want.
>
> Slimserver development will likely continue to go wander until the
> development is forked to emphasize core product reliability and
> performance vs. new features.
>
> Looks like this will be yet another 5.2.1 installation.
>

blah blah blah. The typing of that rant had to take as much time as
hunting through the interface for the right setting would have. Maybe
your time would have been spent more productively by checking out some
of the configuration options that are already there.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

Free Lunch
2004-12-27, 18:06
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:54:44 -0800, Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org> wrote:
> Free Lunch wrote:
> But in the new version, 'browse music folder' is GONE. WHY???
>
>> Root > Browse Music > Browse Music Folder.

It does not exist.

> So why don't you go in the web interface to Player Settings > Menus and
> put Browse Music Folder into the root menu?

It does not exist. It is not an option. It is not there.

> blah blah blah. The typing of that rant had to take as much time as
> hunting through the interface for the right setting would have.

Your useless comment doesn't change the impact of arbitrary interface changes.

A lot of slimp3 owners I know feel similarly. I just upgraded my
Slimserver box to a Sempron 2200. That is a lot of machine and the
performance is still lousy.

> Maybe
> your time would have been spent more productively by checking out some
> of the configuration options that are already there.

I went through all of them. I have been using the product since the
earliest versions of the Slimp3. Still haven't soldered in the cap
they sent to fix the TV interferance problem.

jacobdp
2004-12-27, 18:14
For the sake of everyone else on the list, please stop the flamewar...

Browse Music Folder was NOT REMOVED. There was no "arbitrary interface
change" here.

It did disappear for me once when somehow the music folder setting got
cleared (because of an upgrade). The music still appeared in Browse
Artists etc., because it was in SlimServer's cache, but Browse Music
Folder didn't show up. Re-entering the path fixed the problem.

- Jacob

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:06:11 -0500, Free Lunch <freelunch (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:54:44 -0800, Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org> wrote:
> > Free Lunch wrote:
> > But in the new version, 'browse music folder' is GONE. WHY???
> >
> >> Root > Browse Music > Browse Music Folder.
>
> It does not exist.
>
> > So why don't you go in the web interface to Player Settings > Menus and
> > put Browse Music Folder into the root menu?
>
> It does not exist. It is not an option. It is not there.
>
> > blah blah blah. The typing of that rant had to take as much time as
> > hunting through the interface for the right setting would have.
>
> Your useless comment doesn't change the impact of arbitrary interface changes.
>
> A lot of slimp3 owners I know feel similarly. I just upgraded my
> Slimserver box to a Sempron 2200. That is a lot of machine and the
> performance is still lousy.
>
> > Maybe
> > your time would have been spent more productively by checking out some
> > of the configuration options that are already there.
>
> I went through all of them. I have been using the product since the
> earliest versions of the Slimp3. Still haven't soldered in the cap
> they sent to fix the TV interferance problem.
>

kdf
2004-12-27, 20:39
Quoting Free Lunch <freelunch (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:

> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:54:44 -0800, Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org>
> wrote:
> > Free Lunch wrote:
> > But in the new version, 'browse music folder' is GONE. WHY???
> >
> >> Root > Browse Music > Browse Music Folder.
>
> It does not exist.
>
> > So why don't you go in the web interface to Player Settings > Menus and
> > put Browse Music Folder into the root menu?
>
> It does not exist. It is not an option. It is not there.
>
> > blah blah blah. The typing of that rant had to take as much time as
> > hunting through the interface for the right setting would have.
>
> Your useless comment doesn't change the impact of arbitrary interface
> changes.

one: your rants don't motivate help.

two: try the latest nightly build:
http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/5.4.1/

also, check that you HAVE a music folder setting in you server settings. There
was a bug in 5.4.0 that would disable this menu item if at any time the music
folder setting was invalid or unreadable. A fresh install, for example, would
cause this situation since there is, by default, no music folder setting.

-kdf

Jack Coates
2004-12-27, 20:43
kdf wrote:
....
> one: your rants don't motivate help.
>
> two: try the latest nightly build:
> http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/5.4.1/
>
> also, check that you HAVE a music folder setting in you server settings. There
> was a bug in 5.4.0 that would disable this menu item if at any time the music
> folder setting was invalid or unreadable. A fresh install, for example, would
> cause this situation since there is, by default, no music folder setting.
>
> -kdf
>

I just want to note that latest nightly is a catch-all recommendation;
the music folder setting is very likely to be Free Lunch's specific
problem, which is not related to 5.4.0 vs. 5.4.1.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

kdf
2004-12-27, 21:24
Quoting Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org>:

>
> I just want to note that latest nightly is a catch-all recommendation;
> the music folder setting is very likely to be Free Lunch's specific
> problem, which is not related to 5.4.0 vs. 5.4.1.

er...I was actaully speaking about a known problem with "browse music folder"
option not being available after a default install. This was a fix made
post-5.4.0. The problem is that the server would not show any "browse music
folder" option when there was no music folder set in server settings. Even if
you set this value, the menu option would not be available until you restarted
there server. In one case, even restarting didn't seem to help. Hence, my
suggestion. I could point you to any nightly after Dec 3 to fix this, but the
latest nightly is easier to grab, and includes fixes for a few other things
that have been found since dec 3.

Granted, i do tend to stop reading after an email gets offensive, so the option
it always up to the user whether to download the nightly or not if what I've
said sounds like its related to their problem.

-kdf

Jack Coates
2004-12-27, 21:58
kdf wrote:
> Quoting Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org>:
>
>
>>I just want to note that latest nightly is a catch-all recommendation;
>>the music folder setting is very likely to be Free Lunch's specific
>>problem, which is not related to 5.4.0 vs. 5.4.1.
>
>
> er...I was actaully speaking about a known problem with "browse music folder"
> option not being available after a default install. This was a fix made
> post-5.4.0. The problem is that the server would not show any "browse music
> folder" option when there was no music folder set in server settings. Even if
> you set this value, the menu option would not be available until you restarted
> there server. In one case, even restarting didn't seem to help. Hence, my
> suggestion. I could point you to any nightly after Dec 3 to fix this, but the
> latest nightly is easier to grab, and includes fixes for a few other things
> that have been found since dec 3.
>

oh, didn't realize that -- sorry for the confusion.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

Free Lunch
2004-12-28, 08:41
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:24:34 -0800, kdf <slim-mail (AT) deane-freeman (DOT) com> wrote:
> Quoting Jack Coates <jack (AT) monkeynoodle (DOT) org>:
>
> >
> > I just want to note that latest nightly is a catch-all recommendation;
> > the music folder setting is very likely to be Free Lunch's specific
> > problem, which is not related to 5.4.0 vs. 5.4.1.
>
> er...I was actaully speaking about a known problem with "browse music folder"
> option not being available after a default install. This was a fix made
> post-5.4.0. The problem is that the server would not show any "browse music
> folder" option when there was no music folder set in server settings.

Sounds like a serious bug and one which new installations/customers
are likely to encounter.

Has an actively updated document been added to the main download page
that lists KNOWN PROBLEMS with each release? Why not? I have read the
release notes and it is not covered there.

Is solving product bugs by randomly picking a nightly build and hoping
it works for the next year a viable support strategy? I have to leave
this install this morning.

Is there a QA suite that the nightly's go through?
I have asked in the past whether there are any metrics of nightly
build quality that can be used when choosing a build and was told
there was not.

I should also add.. On the first big demo/tutorial to my folks, the
audio output was crackling. Silly me, I just expected it to work. I
have never, ever heard that on my original slimp3. This install is
running on a dedicated Linux system (1.2 Ghz Celeron). The hardware
was my dedicated slimserver system (Gentoo) for six months prior to
this new install of KNOPPIX. When I checked the server during the
crackling, it was not scanning the music library at that time.

> Granted, i do tend to stop reading after an email gets offensive, so the option
> it always up to the user whether to download the nightly or not if what I've
> said sounds like its related to their problem.

It is frustrating that the support strategy is still focused on new
features and not reliability. I had hoped that reliability would
become a higher priority by now.

When will there ever be a bug free (or nearly) release? Why not fork
the software to a core reliable branch and a feature branch?

On my slimserver, I spent time on 5.3.0 and 5.3.1. Both had serious
problems and I went back to 5.2.1. I had really expected that 5.4.0
would be more solid.

I suggested a friend buy a squeezebox one year ago. He was badly
burned by the wireless problems and wasted a bunch of money on
wireless hardware that was purchased specifically for his squeezebox.
I wasted countless hours debugging his wireless. The wireless gear now
sits unused as his squeezebox is hardwired. Yet my slimp3 with a
WET11 worked perfectly in his house.

A good friend of mine wrote one of the original slimp3 reviews that
drove significant sales of the device. He is still a 5.2.1 user and
after trying 5.3.X deleted it with 'extreme predjudice'. His comment
on the Squeezebox "Why didn't you buy an original slimp3 on ebay?"

I know about a dozen people who would immediately buy squeezeboxes at
my recommendation. But I can't hand-hold those folks. They expect
stuff to 'just work'.

I have another squeezebox and server sitting at home for a friend. I
really didn't think it would be necessary to extensively QA the latest
production release myself in order to set these people up and walk
away. Their use of the product feature set is extremely limited and
simple. That the browse music folder option is broken on a new
install of the latest production release speaks volumes. So a rant is
*entirely* appropriate.


FL