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d6jg
2016-09-08, 14:07
Details were released yesterday. It has no headphone socket!

I listen to my music using iPeng on an iPod Touch, an iPad and my iPhone 6s as well as my SB hardware and Pi's. I actually use the iPhone and a pair of B&W P7s as much as any other configuration as SWMBO watches a lot of TV.

The later iThingy's have really quite good DACs and with iPeng is able to stream my FLACs at a sufficiently high level of fidelity.

I shall not be getting an iPhone 7 though if I have to buy a separate Lightning adapter for my headphones. Why?

pippin
2016-09-08, 16:33
You don't have to. The adapter is included with the phone

usc95
2016-09-09, 09:25
Sad how Apple's solution for the problems they have created is using dongles. Seems absurd that to listen to music and charge the phone at the same time we would need to resort to at least two dongles! This one plugged into the lightning port:
http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F8J198/?clickid=whjX7vxU2T7fXWI2Wdz-6Q-3Ukk1CSS11Sa-Vs0&utm_campaign=Online+Tracking+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=impactradius&irgwc=1&clickid=weOTBpxlKUjSVJkS19XbDwkgUkk1CHT1QWOf3w0&utm_campaign=Online+Tracking+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=impactradius&irgwc=1

Apple's dongle plugged into it and the headphones plugged into that. Steve Jobs must be turning over in his grave. There is absolutely no consumer benefit to this move. After using iphones since the 3GS I have seriously been exploring switching to Android. Unfortunately, my car stereo does not support Android except through the aux port and of course there is no Ipeng for Android. My 6+ is still working fine and maybe I will have calmed down by the time it needs replacing but Apple's arrogance in this whole thing really pisses me off.

d6jg
2016-09-09, 10:03
Sad how Apple's solution for the problems they have created is using dongles. Seems absurd that to listen to music and charge the phone at the same time we would need to resort to at least two dongles! This one plugged into the lightning port:
http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F8J198/?clickid=whjX7vxU2T7fXWI2Wdz-6Q-3Ukk1CSS11Sa-Vs0&utm_campaign=Online+Tracking+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=impactradius&irgwc=1&clickid=weOTBpxlKUjSVJkS19XbDwkgUkk1CHT1QWOf3w0&utm_campaign=Online+Tracking+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=impactradius&irgwc=1

Apple's dongle plugged into it and the headphones plugged into that. Steve Jobs must be turning over in his grave. There is absolutely no consumer benefit to this move. After using iphones since the 3GS I have seriously been exploring switching to Android. Unfortunately, my car stereo does not support Android except through the aux port and of course there is no Ipeng for Android. My 6+ is still working fine and maybe I will have calmed down by the time it needs replacing but Apple's arrogance in this whole thing really pisses me off.

Exactly my thinking.

bakker_be
2016-09-09, 10:10
This is another consideration: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/09/analog-last-defense-against-drm

d6jg
2016-09-09, 10:23
Logically they have dispensed with the onboard DAC and moved it to the Lightning dongle. I suppose it might mean that some high end DAC manufacturers might enter the market with a replacement dongle.
The points about DRM are interesting.

pippin
2016-09-09, 12:36
Conspiracies.
Apple arte the ones who forced the industry to give up with DRM, why should they promote it now?
Plus: people these days are not in the music (streaming) business to make money with it, which is part of the problems we are seeing but also means things like DRM are irrelevant.

Now that even die-hard fanboys are critical of Apple because of the headphone jack I have to defend them.

Doing away with the outdated and expensive analog audio chain is long overdue and this move, which will make digital audio transfer more attractive for a few hundred million people will help with that.

This whole thing with DACs, amps, cables and so on, all this expensive stuff that only adds up losses is so last millennium. These days you could build so much better audio devices at so much lower cost if you built a digital speaker and the technology has been there for 20 years, it's overdue.

pippin
2016-09-09, 12:39
BTW: there's something else I'm pretty critical of: inventing a new proprietary BS for AirPods instead of moving forward with Bluetooth development is a bad idea, IMHO

philippe_44
2016-09-09, 13:08
Conspiracies.
Apple arte the ones who forced the industry to give up with DRM, why should they promote it now?
Plus: people these days are not in the music (streaming) business to make money with it, which is part of the problems we are seeing but also means things like DRM are irrelevant.

Now that even die-hard fanboys are critical of Apple because of the headphone jack I have to defend them.

Doing away with the outdated and expensive analog audio chain is long overdue and this move, which will make digital audio transfer more attractive for a few hundred million people will help with that.

This whole thing with DACs, amps, cables and so on, all this expensive stuff that only adds up losses is so last millennium. These days you could build so much better audio devices at so much lower cost if you built a digital speaker and the technology has been there for 20 years, it's overdue.

What I can confirm is the room taken by a 3.5mm jack in designing a modern smartphone, the problem with antenna proximity and a few others are really horrible

bpa
2016-09-09, 13:20
If Apple is so keen on wireless - why not wireless charging as it would help avoid using a dual port dongle for playback during charging

d6jg
2016-09-09, 13:23
Ah. Now I totally agree about the interference issue. I have a very nice portable headphone amp. Won't work with an iPhone due to mobile signal interference but works perfectly with iPod Touch and iPad with iPeng.

So I think we are saying that the iPhone 7 won't have a headphone jack but there will be a lightning adapter in the box. I suppose the real question is will that adapter (with in built DAC and amp?) be as good as the onboard DAC & amp?

pippin
2016-09-09, 16:27
Probably not which is why it's time to get a decent pair of digital-only headphones. Or just use the ones that come with the iPhone 7.

Re: wireless charging: has anyone got a decent solution for that? Plenty of vendors tried that with Android (and Win) phones and they all eventually seem to have given up on it, could there be a reason for that?

bpa
2016-09-10, 01:06
Re: wireless charging: has anyone got a decent solution for that? Plenty of vendors tried that with Android (and Win) phones and they all eventually seem to have given up on it, could there be a reason for that?

I think it needed more pull from vendors which is what Apple usually like to be seen to be at the front - even Ikea offers wireless stuff.

Google's explanation why they omitted wireless chrging in 5x is a bit lame - wireless was originally included becuase users couldn't plugin USB correctly however now with type C stupid users can plug phones in to charge.

Thanks for being a Nexus fan! We added Qi wireless charging starting with N4 because plugging in USB micro B was such a hassle! (Which way is up!?) With this year’s Nexii, we support USB Type-C which has a reversible connector so there’s no more guessing. AND it charges incredibly swiftly: 1% to 100% in 97 mins on the 6P for example (the first ~45 mins of charging is especially fast). Meanwhile, wireless charging adds z (thickness). So, ease of plugging in + fast charging + optimizing for thinness made us double down on Type-C instead of wireless!

There are still many phones offering wireless but obviously for the vendors irt does not have enough of a wow/newness factor to sellphones whereas Apple has instead discovered bokeh is now trying to sell it as a mystical way of making better photos - personally easier charging is more useful than bokeh.

Paul Webster
2016-09-10, 01:51
Logically they have dispensed with the onboard DAC and moved it to the Lightning dongle.

However, they still have a DAC because there are speakers on the device - with the new feature from Apple that they are now stereo ;)



If Apple is so keen on wireless - why not wireless charging as it would help avoid using a dual port dongle for playback during charging
There were reports a while ago that Apple has put of a request to hardware suppliers to get ready for WiFi charging for iPhone in 2017
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-29/apple-said-developing-wireless-charged-phone-for-as-soon-as-2017-ijz3i4si

pippin
2016-09-10, 03:06
However, they still have a DAC because there are speakers on the device - with the new feature from Apple that they are now stereo ;)


You are sure they use a DAC? OK, it might save them a few cents but it draws more power than a direct class-D-amp for each speaker and power saving is sacred in a phone...

epoch1970
2016-09-10, 05:21
I remember the original MBA, which I bought in 2008. No CD-rom, no ethernet. So much public outcry... I did use the ethernet adapter, but the optional USB CD-Rom I used maybe only once a year.

I'm not bothered at all with the lightning connector. Headphone makers sell products "made for iphone" at ludicrous prices, a little less snake oil and a little more R&D and differentiation won't hurt any.

That last keynote event, though... I had to cut the audio at times.

andynormancx
2016-09-10, 09:09
This is another consideration: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/09/analog-last-defense-against-drm

I'm not a fan of the removal of the headphone jack from the iPhone 7.

However, they aren't removing analogue, just the headphone jack. When you plug the supplied Lightning headphones into the iPhone 7 they'll be supplied with analogue signals over the Lightning interface. There is no DAC and electronics in the Lightning headphones they supply.

There are DAC equipped Lightning headphones out there, but you can still have plain old analogue over Lightning (and could do before the iPhone 7). You can also do analogue over Lightning, while also charging the phone, but sadly not with the adapter that Apple are providing in the box.

andynormancx
2016-09-10, 09:11
I suppose the real question is will that adapter (with in built DAC and amp?) be as good as the onboard DAC & amp?

The adapter doesn't have a DAC and amp. It just passes through the analogue output that the Lightning port is already capable off.

pippin
2016-09-10, 09:43
The adapter doesn't have a DAC and amp. It just passes through the analogue output that the Lightning port is already capable off.

Sorry, you are wrong on that one, Lightning doesn't have analog audio.

andynormancx
2016-09-12, 08:38
Sorry, you are wrong on that one, Lightning doesn't have analog audio.

Hmmm

I was so sure I'd read something over the last couple of years that said that it could do it. But I trust that you would know the answer to this.

I'm even more surprised that Apple are including the adapter and selling it for $9 than I was when I thought they were just dumb analogue pass throughs.

Apologies to those in this thread that I forcefully "corrected" :(

pippin
2016-09-12, 09:47
Well, unless Apple's spec doesn't lie (where I looked it up)...
Nothin in terms of "what they put in connectors) surprises me anymore after the Lightning connector itself which obviously contains an H.264 Encoder...

andynormancx
2016-09-13, 15:16
Nothin in terms of "what they put in connectors) surprises me anymore after the Lightning connector itself which obviously contains an H.264 Encoder...

Do you mean the Lightning to HDMI adapter ?

https://panic.com/blog/the-lightning-digital-av-adapter-surprise/

pippin
2016-09-13, 15:18
Ah, yes, it was that one

andynormancx
2016-09-14, 13:31
Ah, yes, it was that one

It will be interesting to see the tear downs on Friday to see how they've crammed the DAC and amp into the Lightning plug.

pippin
2016-09-14, 13:33
How much power does an headphone amp have to have? Do they need a separate amp for that or can they just drive it through the DAC?
If they need an amp my bet is there won't be a DAC.

andynormancx
2016-09-15, 00:44
I've just been reading up on using a D class amp and driving the switching with the bitstream, rather than DAC+amp. I guess that is what you were talking about earlier ?

Sounds like a definite possibility.

pippin
2016-09-15, 03:33
Yes. Saves a lot of power compared to DAC+amp which is pretty important on mobile.
That said... It performs better if you can adapt the filter used to the (known) speaker so it's a more likely candidate for built-in speakers and digital headphones.
For the adapter I'm wondering whether you really need an amp or whether a DAC can simply take the current needed (and provided by the phone). Then you could just have only a DAC...

pippin
2016-09-15, 03:40
But for all other applications: since in most applications you are using class-D amps anyway these days you can do away with a lot of lossy analog signal handling if you go digital these days.
In the past the limiting factor was the need for a digital deceive creating the input bitstream for the amp but today this is so cheap and power efficient it's really the way you want to go. Especially since you can program that to double as a digital filter to adapt to the speaker's transmission curve, something you'd otherwise do with expensive, power consuming and tolerance-challenged analog filters.