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basslover99
2016-05-29, 05:14
A couple of questions please:

1. Is there a reason tidal via Ickstream on the Logitech Media server desktop would sound much better than tidal through the Logitech Media Server by itself on the desktop?

2. Using Tidal via Ickstream on the lms desktop, I can't get all 200 cuts to load on the playlist for this album. I can't even get 51-100 to load.
Franz Schubert: Lieder, Vol. 2 Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau Gerald moore

http://127.0.0.1:9000/plugins/ickstream ... 3Ae1&sess=

Same thing with other multi-CD sets.
Same thing with my saved playlists -- can only put one cut at a time on the playlist.

Using Tidal straight thru the LMS, I can do these things.

Any help much appreciated!

basslover99
2016-05-30, 00:43
I found a workaround, increasing from 50 to 500 the items per page in Settings of LMS. Now all the cuts on a multi-album set, and all the cuts on a long playlist, will load. So the problem was, Ickstream Tidal on just won't go to a second page.

garym
2016-05-31, 06:41
re better sound?

Slight differences in volume can make the louder track "sound better" (as tested in double blind tests). I recall in LMS I can set it to use a constant volume reduction for streams (LMS > Settings > Players > Audio). For example, I use this because my local files have ReplayGain tags and Spotify files do not (and sound a lot louder than my local files in a random mix playblack). Perhaps you have this set up and it works with regular TIDAL via LMS but ickstream does not use the volume reduction? I have no idea if that is the issue, but if true, it would certainly make the ickstream tidal streams sound a bit louder (and thus make us *think* that it sounds better).

basslover99
2016-05-31, 23:31
Thanks for the suggestion garym. It's definitely not a loudness issue. Turn either one up or down in volume, Ickstream is always better.

garym
2016-06-01, 04:36
Thanks for the suggestion garym. It's definitely not a loudness issue. Turn either one up or down in volume, Ickstream is always better.

have you checked that you haven't accidentally turned on "bitrate limiting" in LMS > Settings > Players > Audio?

basslover99
2016-06-02, 00:41
have you checked that you haven't accidentally turned on "bitrate limiting" in LMS > Settings > Players > Audio?

No, bitrate limiting is off.

Does the music stream ever go through the computer in either direct LMS or LMS/Ickstream?

garym
2016-06-02, 04:27
No, bitrate limiting is off.

Does the music stream ever go through the computer in either direct LMS or LMS/Ickstream?

no, the audio setup of the computer is not relevant. That's the beauty/reason for the squeezebox. It doesn't rely on the computer's audio playback chain. Even if the computer running LMS has ZERO soundcard/audio reproduction capabilities, it doesn't matter because it would not be used.** the bit-perfect data is transferred from LMS to the duet receiver via either ethernet or wifi and it is the conversion of those bits *within* the player (in your case the duet receiver) to audio that matters.

** obviously this statement is not true if one is using SqueezePlay or Squeezelite and using the PC as a *player* itself.

Mnyb
2016-06-02, 07:28
I dokt have my tidal account anymore , but it should not rely make any diffrence which plugin you use , never noticed anything like that when inused it ?

Is there any quality settings to fiddle with or volume normalisation settngs ?

Re volume what garym means is the relative volume . Is any version louder than the other ?

And i would turn off that -5 dB thing for streaming services in the settings and also all smartgain or replay gain settings .

basslover99
2016-06-02, 15:06
no, the audio setup of the computer is not relevant. That's the beauty/reason for the squeezebox. It doesn't rely on the computer's audio playback chain. Even if the computer running LMS has ZERO soundcard/audio reproduction capabilities, it doesn't matter because it would not be used.** the bit-perfect data is transferred from LMS to the duet receiver via either ethernet or wifi and it is the conversion of those bits *within* the player (in your case the duet receiver) to audio that matters.

** obviously this statement is not true if one is using SqueezePlay or Squeezelite and using the PC as a *player* itself.

Thanks, I understand now. :-)

basslover99
2016-06-02, 15:08
I dokt have my tidal account anymore , but it should not rely make any diffrence which plugin you use , never noticed anything like that when inused it ?

Is there any quality settings to fiddle with or volume normalisation settngs ?

Re volume what garym means is the relative volume . Is any version louder than the other ?

And i would turn off that -5 dB thing for streaming services in the settings and also all smartgain or replay gain settings .

Thanks for the info. I checked and all of them are off.

I can easily A/B Ickstream vs. LMS alone and at equal volume, one is much clearer than the other. That's why I asked if one goes through the computer or not because doing so would degrade the sound. But the stream apparently doesn't go through the computer, so my mystery remains.

garym
2016-06-02, 15:13
Thanks for the info. I checked and all of them are off.

I can easily A/B Ickstream vs. LMS alone and at equal volume, one is much clearer than the other. That's why I asked if one goes through the computer or not because doing so would degrade the sound. But the stream apparently doesn't go through the computer, so my mystery remains.

Very odd. And it seems you are talking about very obvious differences (not subtle "audiophile" musicality type nonsense). Just to be clear, you can have someone else A/B the source without you knowing what it is (single blind) and always pick one source from another? If so it is a real mystery. Tidal should sound identical whether fed to the duet receiver from LMS > ickstream vs LMS > tidal app. And you are 100% certain that there are no Tidal settings in ickstream vs the app in LMS that are different (volume normalization turned on, you've told one to feed 16/44.1 and the other to feed the lower quality lossy tidal versions, etc. etc.?????

basslover99
2016-06-02, 15:37
Very odd. And it seems you are talking about very obvious differences (not subtle "audiophile" musicality type nonsense). Just to be clear, you can have someone else A/B the source without you knowing what it is (single blind) and always pick one source from another? If so it is a real mystery. Tidal should sound identical whether fed to the duet receiver from LMS > ickstream vs LMS > tidal app. And you are 100% certain that there are no Tidal settings in ickstream vs the app in LMS that are different (volume normalization turned on, you've told one to feed 16/44.1 and the other to feed the lower quality lossy tidal versions, etc. etc.?????
Thanks for your continued help! I'm going to go back and double check all settings. I live alone and haven't gotten a third person involved in testing. I do have a so-called high-resolution system and heard a difference the first time that I wasn't expecting; I just said, hmmm, does Ickstream sound better and then started A/B'ing.

Worse comes to worst, I'll just keep playing thru Ickstream :-)

tcutting
2016-06-02, 15:39
Thanks for the info. I checked and all of them are off.

I can easily A/B Ickstream vs. LMS alone and at equal volume, one is much clearer than the other. That's why I asked if one goes through the computer or not because doing so would degrade the sound. But the stream apparently doesn't go through the computer, so my mystery remains.

When you say "equal volume" does that mean the "volume settings" are the same, or that somehow you are measuring the actual volume of the acoustic signal (with a meter)? As mentioned previously, it may be possible that the system is applying separate gain (e.g., replay gain) for the different types of streams?

Mnyb
2016-06-02, 16:48
Thanks for the info. I checked and all of them are off.

I can easily A/B Ickstream vs. LMS alone and at equal volume, one is much clearer than the other. That's why I asked if one goes through the computer or not because doing so would degrade the sound. But the stream apparently doesn't go through the computer, so my mystery remains.

Equal volume ? Not the volume setting but the actual real volume .

As sugested use a dB meter to check .

Humans does not always percieve small volume increases as louder , but the slightly louder versions is perceived to sound better .

Difference should be < 0,5 dB .

Otherwise it should be the same data ? Sure that the oficial plugin understands that you have a flac streaming subscription and not sending 256k MP3 to you ( that can be audible if badly encoded and at a slightly lower volume and it does not help that the built in MP3 decoder in many squeezeboxes are slightly compromised )

basslover99
2016-06-03, 00:10
Thanks to all for the continued help.

Both are FLAC.

There are no gain controls engaged.

When I A/B'd it I listened to the same beginning portion of a song, from low to very loud, with each stream, and at whatever volume one sounds better, like a somewhat better DAC. Not the difference between mp3 and FLAC, but it was still a clear difference to my ears. And remember, I didn't set out to test this, I just went to Ickstream because LMS was stalling and I wanted to see if Ickstream would not be stalling. Then I noticed the sound difference.

Having said all this, I will now go back and recheck this now that all you guys have me doubting my sanity lol.

Mnyb
2016-06-03, 23:24
Do you have a spl meter ?

Play the song at a given volume setting with both plugins and measure .

Otherwise try to do a randmised blind test , some one plays the sam track 10-20 times randomly chosen orde between services.
Thats the thing with sanity :) perception bias and placebo are very strong effects , you can not counter them consiusly .

And you can tripp on other strange pshychoacoustics to ! Simply play the same thing twice does it sound diffrent the second time ?
Changes are that you think so especially in a blind setting if you suspect that somethings changed.

There actually was a very strange tread on this forum years back where some dudes claimed that the squeezebox sounded better if you restarted the song :D

basslover99
2016-06-04, 14:35
Do you have a spl meter ?

Play the song at a given volume setting with both plugins and measure .

Otherwise try to do a randmised blind test , some one plays the sam track 10-20 times randomly chosen orde between services.
Thats the thing with sanity :) perception bias and placebo are very strong effects , you can not counter them consiusly .

And you can tripp on other strange pshychoacoustics to ! Simply play the same thing twice does it sound diffrent the second time ?
Changes are that you think so especially in a blind setting if you suspect that somethings changed.

There actually was a very strange tread on this forum years back where some dudes claimed that the squeezebox sounded better if you restarted the song :D

Good suggestions. I'll try these.

DJanGo
2016-06-05, 09:37
(OT)
What is a cut?
(/OT)

garym
2016-06-05, 09:53
(OT)
What is a cut?
(/OT)

cut = track on CD or song on album. In the old days, a radio disk jockey would say "I'm going to play you a cut off the new Beatles album."