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John M.
2004-12-17, 14:29
I agree with both Jason and Mike.

The list really gives the feeling of a community, and I wouldn't have gotten
quite as much of that from a web-based forum. I have enjoyed it subscribing
to it.

But an e-mail list is an anachronism. For customers who don't wish to be
involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
is a big problem. It gives the impression of a product that's intended not
for the general public, but for computer-audio enthusiasts. It's not enough
to have the gmane forum option. It needs to be a community based around a
standard-style web forum, not around an e-mail list.

Forums work very well for many products and interests, and there's still a
feeling of community to them. I participate in several. Eventually, as
list traffic increases, it will be the only option. So I say rip that
Band-aid off and go for it now. I say this as a newcomer and an outsider,
but also as someone with the perspective of the general public, computing
enthusiasts, and audio enthusiasts. The rest of us are all on web forums,
and for good reason.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of
> Mike Hartley
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:15 PM
> To: Slim Devices Discussion
> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
> Jason,
> I'm a bit surprised too. I'm not a newbie by any stretch,
> but I really do prefer a web based forum. I wasn't thrilled
> with having to share my e-mail address with the world to
> participate in the conversation here. (Yes, I know that you
> can set up multiple e-mail accounts, but I wanted some
> information rather quickly) I know there is a strong
> geek-factor associated with the product and a strong
> independent flavor because of the open source nature of the
> product development. But there is also a goal to sell
> product to as wide an audience as possible, which means that
> the support/general information forum needs to be in the
> least intimidating, easiest to use format for the average consumer.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net>
> To: "'Slim Devices Discussion'" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:30 PM
> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
>
> > Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web
> based forum
> > as
> at
> > least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it
> to all the
> > hard core types here, but computer newbies are completely
> put off by
> > lists such as this, even to the extent that they might choose a
> > competitors product
> > (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is
> > easy
> to
> > use and less intimidating than an email list server.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> > [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O.
> Lepard
> > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
> > To: Slim Devices Discussion
> > Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
> >
> > > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web
> based forum
> > > as searching and reading would be MUCH easier.
> >
> > I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web
> based forum,
> > but overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it
> much easier
> > to keep
> up
> > on the discussions.
> >
> > I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise
> I prefer
> > it
> this
> > way.
> >
> > Kevin
> > --
> > Kevin O. Lepard
> > kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net
> >
> > Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.
> >

Jeff Allison
2004-12-17, 15:06
John M. wrote:

> But an e-mail list is an anachronism. For customers who don't wish to be
> involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
> is a big problem. It gives the impression of a product that's intended not
> for the general public, but for computer-audio enthusiasts. It's not enough
> to have the gmane forum option. It needs to be a community based around a
> standard-style web forum, not around an e-mail list.

As kdf said, we really did just have this discussion. But it appears to
be something that wants to be kicked around some more.

I'm an old guy, so maybe I'm as much an anachronism as the mailing lists
to which I subscribe. But I find it by far the best way to participate.
I can deal with all mailing lists the same way: with my mail client.
Web forums are all a bit different, and all require me to register and
log in when I visit. Mailing lists actively deliver content to me and
let me see at a glance that something new has arrived. Web forums
require me to go to their site and check.

Maybe the list will grow so large that it cannot be managed in email and
must be moved to a forum. Or maybe dinosaurs like me and email will die
off and web forums will take over. But I really like the mailing list;
I always have my mail client open and the list fits very well with the
way I work at my computer.

- Jeff

Ben Klaas
2004-12-17, 15:32
I agree with Jeff in that community discussions tend to work a bit
better and encourage more participation if there is some "push"
technology driving them, in this case email. As the list grows in
volume, however, there is a point at which it's pretty tough to keep on
top of what's being said, even when grouping by thread.

One potential solution to please folks from both camps: setup a web
forum that includes an RSS feed. Some email clients (thunderbird 1.0,
for example), can pick up posts to a web forum and push them to you in
an email-like format. I read a number of forum/blog-like websites in
this manner...it's pretty slick.

In the meantime, happy to be involved in this community no matter what
the medium.

#!/ben

Jeff Allison wrote:
> John M. wrote:
>
>> But an e-mail list is an anachronism. For customers who don't wish to be
>> involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web
>> forum
>> is a big problem. It gives the impression of a product that's
>> intended not
>> for the general public, but for computer-audio enthusiasts. It's not
>> enough
>> to have the gmane forum option. It needs to be a community based
>> around a
>> standard-style web forum, not around an e-mail list.
>
>
> As kdf said, we really did just have this discussion. But it appears to
> be something that wants to be kicked around some more.
>
> I'm an old guy, so maybe I'm as much an anachronism as the mailing lists
> to which I subscribe. But I find it by far the best way to participate.
> I can deal with all mailing lists the same way: with my mail client.
> Web forums are all a bit different, and all require me to register and
> log in when I visit. Mailing lists actively deliver content to me and
> let me see at a glance that something new has arrived. Web forums
> require me to go to their site and check.
>
> Maybe the list will grow so large that it cannot be managed in email and
> must be moved to a forum. Or maybe dinosaurs like me and email will die
> off and web forums will take over. But I really like the mailing list;
> I always have my mail client open and the list fits very well with the
> way I work at my computer.
>
> - Jeff
>

Steve Burling
2004-12-18, 07:48
--On Friday, December 17, 2004 2:06:16 PM EST -0800 Jeff Allison
<Jeff.Allison (AT) amate (DOT) us> wrote:

> Maybe the list will grow so large that it cannot be managed in email and
> must be moved to a forum. Or maybe dinosaurs like me and email will die
> off and web forums will take over. But I really like the mailing list; I
> always have my mail client open and the list fits very well with the way
> I work at my computer.

To which I reply:

As another old fart, let me just say that I've *never* seen a web forum
that I can process as efficiently as I can whip through the mailing list
digests. If you can't do that quickly and efficiently, it's likely that
you're using one of the crappy Micro$oft mail clients.

Please stick with the list. I haven't got time to wait for all the stupid
graphics that come along with forum software to load (and I habitually work
on very high-speed links).

--
Steve Burling <mailto:srb (AT) umich (DOT) edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street FAX: +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910

Danny Rego
2004-12-18, 11:43
Either method is fine with me....an email list is a pain in the butt, and a
web forum can be equally frustrating. The difference here is that a web
based forum-type interface is FAR MORE ACCESSIBLE to the masses.
Everybody's using them now, and many people know how to click around in them
with ease.

A major problem with email, is the amount of spam people get, and because of
that, they use all sorts of spam filtering, and in MANY of those spam
filtering solutions, mailing lists end up getting blocked at some point, and
MOST people aren't smart enough to realise this, track it down, and fix it
(by adding the address to the allow list or whatever).

Why not cater to the lowest common denominator? A web forum may
inconvenience the "learned" more non-geek user, but at least they will be
able to use a web forum with ease, where a "non-learned" non-geek user

I personally would prefer a web based solution, but if we stick with email,
that's fine too. I would just prefer if everyone would think of the greater
masses rather than their own little situation. (What's an extra click, or
two? or an extra second, or two for a page to load??? really?)

(just thought I'd add my thoughts, so I can get jumped on too)

Danny Rego

John L Fjellstad
2004-12-18, 11:59
On Sat, Dec 18, 2004 at 01:43:33PM -0500, Danny Rego wrote:

> Why not cater to the lowest common denominator? A web forum may
> inconvenience the "learned" more non-geek user, but at least they will be
> able to use a web forum with ease, where a "non-learned" non-geek user

How useful would the forums be without the ubergeek there to answer the
questions?

--
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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Philip Meyer
2004-12-18, 15:58
I promised myself I wouldn't comment on this thread any more, but I just can't help it, sorry.

>Either method is fine with me
>
Great... let's stick to email then ;)

>web forum can be equally frustrating. The difference here is that a web
>based forum-type interface is FAR MORE ACCESSIBLE to the masses.
I can't accept that. Surely everyone connected to the internet has an email account, whereas not everyone can actually access web pages, eg through restricted access such as a work PC.

Probably a fair few people are still using dial-up access, so I would imagine email to be far more accessible for the majority. They can log on, grab the latest mail, log off and read at ease. They can prepare email off-line and post later. This can be accessed on a PDA, whereas web forums are a little harder.

Also note that if the forum server goes down, no-one can access anything, whereas if the email server or individuals email account goes down, they can still see emails and prepare mail for sending later.

>Everybody's using them now, and many people know how to click around in them
>with ease.
>
Everybody's using email too, and many people know how to send and receive email with ease.

>A major problem with email, is the amount of spam people get
I haven't seen any spam on this list. Do we get any, or is my ISP fitering this out?

Don't web forums get spam too? I think someone mentioned that they don't touch Yahoo forums because they get loads of junk.

>Why not cater to the lowest common denominator?
Surely that's email then?

Actually, I don't mind so much is a web forum is introduced (I would probably browse it, but not read everything, and hardly ever post), but would prefer email, because I find it easier and quicker to access - not just for me but thinking of the majority.

I quite like the idea of an additional forum for people to chat. It doesn't have to be instead of the email lists though. Perhaps if someone moderates it, they could make common questions in threads sticky, and gather these into a FAQ that can be added into the SlimServer documentation?

Phil

Danny Rego
2004-12-18, 17:05
>web forum can be equally frustrating. The difference here is that a web
>based forum-type interface is FAR MORE ACCESSIBLE to the masses.

What I meant here was that a web site is something you CHOOSE to go to,
therefore it's non-intrusive. In general people don't like mailing lists
for the simple fact that it's annoying. Someone who logs in once a week
will have to sit through downloading 1000 messages from this list. Because
of that...a web based interface is more "accessible".

>Everybody's using them now, and many people know how to click around in
>them
>with ease.

Of course everyone's using email....but not for mailing lists (especially
heavy traffic lists)....again...the average joe I'm talking about.

>A major problem with email, is the amount of spam people get

I'm not talking about spam on this list...I'm talking about spam in your
email box, which forces you to install (sometimes) complex software that
would falsely block legitimate emails from this list. I know that it is
POSSIBLE to configure them to let this list through everytime, but
again...the average joe generally doesn't understand this concept. They are
more likely to install spam filtering, and never realize/figure out that
there may be legitimate emails being blocked.

>Why not cater to the lowest common denominator?

Average Joe = Lowest Common Denominator

Also....someone was talking about email being easier, because you can pop
onto the internet over dialup, download your email, and read them offline,
which is true, but again, if you log in once a week you're waiting for 10
minutes (or whatever) as all of your mailng list emails are downloaded, when
you may care less at that moment.

Anyways...whatever wins out, doesn't really matter to me, but to the people
who could benefit the most from the information thrown around on these lists
(the average/non-technical joe), I believe web-based would suit them better.

That's it for me and this topic...thanks for listening.

Danny Rego

John L Fjellstad
2004-12-18, 22:59
On Sat, Dec 18, 2004 at 05:07:08PM -0800, John M. wrote:

> For an example of a great, modern web forum, see
> http://www.head-fi.org/forums/. This is for headphone enthusiasts. It's a
> tight community and uses a modern interface. Participating in the
> discussions there is very quick and efficient. (Warning...If you get into

How does this make it great?

Which reply is to which post?
I seen these kinds of web forums before (Tivocommunity, VG groups (a
norwegian newspaper groups)), and, IMO, the interface is horrible.
Newbies tend to reply to the first or last post, instead of the post they
are actually trying to reply to.
And if a message gets lot of posts (with divergent discussions), watch
out.

I guess if you come from an Outlook (Express) world where nothing is
threaded, this is great, but...

--
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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Philip Meyer
2004-12-19, 05:47
>Of course everyone's using email....but not for mailing lists (especially
>heavy traffic lists)....again...the average joe I'm talking about.
>
I don't find the traffic on the discuss list heavy. Quite light in fact compared to some of my other subscribed lists, such as Alan Parsons Project (1000 unread messages), Tangerine Dream (10000 unread), Porcupine Tree (14000 unread) and Electronic Music (28000 unread).

Of course, I'm never actually going to read all those, but I don't delete them either. I keep them so I can search quickly.

Phil

Danny Rego
2004-12-19, 10:14
My fault....I'm also on the developer list which is much heavier than the
general discussion list, and it is a very busy list. Sorry!

Danny Rego


----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Meyer" <slim (AT) hergest (DOT) demon.co.uk>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:47 AM
Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)


>Of course everyone's using email....but not for mailing lists (especially
>heavy traffic lists)....again...the average joe I'm talking about.
>
I don't find the traffic on the discuss list heavy. Quite light in fact
compared to some of my other subscribed lists, such as Alan Parsons Project
(1000 unread messages), Tangerine Dream (10000 unread), Porcupine Tree
(14000 unread) and Electronic Music (28000 unread).

Of course, I'm never actually going to read all those, but I don't delete
them either. I keep them so I can search quickly.

Phil

Jesse David Hollington
2004-12-19, 12:16
I've also been trying to stay out of this discussion, but I do have to
agree that as long as you have a good, well-moderated forum system,
many of the disadvantages of forums go away.

I participate very actively in the iPodlounge forums at the moment,
and I would have to say that I find them to a be a very
community-oriented set of web forums that the old users and new users
equally enjoy. The system is not intimidating for newbies, yet
there's still a tight sense of community there.

Any good forum system also provides a method to search for recent
posts very quickly (so you can stay caught up on what's new), as well
as e-mail notifications of new posts to a thread you've participated
in, or a thread/forum that you've subscribed to, so I find that
keeping up is almost never a problem (in fact, I find it far easier,
because I can keep up with only relevant information).

The key to running a good forum system (beyond a good forum software)
is a good set of policies and a team of experienced moderators who can
keep things under control and on track. It's definitely more
administration, but I'm sure SlimDevices would find more than a few
willing volunteers in this very list to handle the moderation of these
forums.

In my case, I have no real objection to the mailing list (I'm flexible
either way), but I do want to point out that just because there are
some really bad web-based forums out there doesn't mean they all have
to be... The truth is that I find that official product support
forums are the absolute WORST from most companies, so please don't use
them as an example of what a SlimDevices forum could become. Look to
the hobbyist/enthusiast forums for examples of good ones... Because
at the end of the day, SlimDevices is not a big monolithic company, so
I'm sure that any forum started for this purpose would have much more
of a grassroots/hobbyist feel.


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:58:51 -0800, John M. <mail (AT) machtinger (DOT) com> wrote:
> John,
>
> I think if you had actually participated in a "great" web forum for any
> length of time, you would feel quite differently.

John L Fjellstad
2004-12-19, 13:12
On Sun, Dec 19, 2004 at 09:58:51AM -0800, John M. wrote:

> I said Head-fi was a great forum because it's a tight community of
> enthusiasts who know how to use a web forum well. Tivocommunity is a
> sprawling group filled with newbies and is relatively disorganized. A SB
> forum would not be like that. The SB is a single product, sold by a single
> (or very few) vendors, and the community (even with newbies) is much, much
> smaller than for TiVo. Every sub-forum would be centered around the SB, and
> newbie questions would have their own sub-forum.

You are basically describing the tivocommunity. There is one single
product, TiVo. There are sub-forums centered around the TiVo (upgrades,
tv show discussions that has been tivoed, feature requests etc etc).
Tivocommunity is basically what you will be getting. And it's not a bad
site. But I find the discussions here (and on other mailinglists) far
superior.

> It's true that posts on a thread can diverge from the original post, but
> a tight community reins that in as much as possible. Overall, it's far
> easier to follow a given discussion on a web forum than it is via e-mail.

It's not about diverging, it's about sub-discussions. Since you're
running Outlook, you probably aren't seeing this, but just this
discussion has several subthreads. If you take a look at this thread,
starting with you on Dec 17th (Message-Id:
<200412172128.iBHLSceJ020969 (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>), you have a
subthread started by Jeff Allison and a subthread started by Philip Meyer.
They both branch off in different directions, but they are still
on-topic. A forum (or email system for that matter) without proper
thread support, doesn't show this.

--
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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Donald B. Lagosz-Sinclair
2004-12-19, 18:55
On Sunday, December 19, 2004 3:12 PM, John L Fjellstad wrote:

<snip>

Since you're running Outlook, you probably aren't seeing this,
but just this discussion has several subthreads.

</snip>

Funny, but I use Outlook Express, and it shows the messages
threaded just as you describe, once you turn on the feature
(View -> Current view -> Group messages by conversation).

By the way, I'm content with the email list; I'd rather not
deal with a web-based medium when it can be avoided.

-:- dbls

Tony Jones
2004-12-19, 19:57
Between the e-mail list and it's gmane (web and NNTP) versions why would
you need something else?

I use Yahoo groups all the time, they're fine, but I fail to see what they would
provide that this doesn't.

ColorMeIgnorant

Tony

> By the way, I'm content with the email list; I'd rather not
> deal with a web-based medium when it can be avoided.

Anthony Webb
2004-12-19, 22:31
Tony Jones wrote:
> Between the e-mail list and it's gmane (web and NNTP) versions why would
> you need something else?
>
> I use Yahoo groups all the time, they're fine, but I fail to see what they would
> provide that this doesn't.
>
> ColorMeIgnorant
>
> Tony
>
>
>>By the way, I'm content with the email list; I'd rather not
>>deal with a web-based medium when it can be avoided.

Yahoo groups blow anyway, there are plenty nice interfaces from phpBB
and vBulletin that kick yahoo in the butt... Hard!

Aaron Zinck
2004-12-20, 06:40
Using the newsreader in Outlook Express there *is* proper threading.


"Kevin Walsh" <kevin (AT) cursor (DOT) biz> wrote in
message
news:001101c4e652$cfe4c680$020110ac (AT) majestic (DOT) internal.office.cursor.biz...
> Donald B. Lagosz-Sinclair [dbls (AT) comcast (DOT) net]
wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > Since you're running Outlook, you probably aren't seeing this,
> > but just this discussion has several subthreads.
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> > Funny, but I use Outlook Express, and it shows the messages
> > threaded just as you describe, once you turn on the feature
> > (View -> Current view -> Group messages by conversation).
> >
> That's not threading - that's just listing articles with the same
> subject next to one another.
>
> --
> _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
> _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/
kevin (AT) cursor (DOT) biz
> _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/

Tony Jones
2004-12-22, 17:47
If the issue is newbie users, isn't this an issue for Slimdevices?

Everyone here, is, well here already :-) What is the goal, perceived problem
etc? To help SD sell more units due to a lack of support? Personally I'd be highly
questionable of this, most people don't consider support as a purchasing factor ...
only to discover it's poor when they hit a problem.

Anyways, it seems like SD just needs to setup a decent support site on their own
website. If I was one of the great unwashed of Windows users :-) I'd be far more
reassured by something clearly connected to the vendor than being pointed to some
3rd party Yahoo group.

I bought a Kuro box recently. Revolution support just sucked and even they were able to
setup a bulletin board system (albeit not the greatest one).

Tony

"Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net> wrote in message news:200412200620.iBK6JueJ077293 (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com...
> Because many users are intimidated by email lists or don't even understand
> what they are, they don't know a gmane from a lion mane.
>
> What they do understand is how to put in a simple web address, navigate to
> the forum they need and read or pose a query.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Tony Jones
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:57 PM
> To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
> Between the e-mail list and it's gmane (web and NNTP) versions why would you
> need something else?
>
> I use Yahoo groups all the time, they're fine, but I fail to see what they
> would provide that this doesn't.
>
> ColorMeIgnorant
>
> Tony
>
> > By the way, I'm content with the email list; I'd rather not deal with
> > a web-based medium when it can be avoided.
>
>
>
>

JJ
2004-12-22, 18:03
It's not a newbie issue - far from it. As soon as the forums go
read/write I'm off of this mailing list. I'm on no less than 20 other
mailing lists already, mostly technical & work related lists where I'm
interested in keeping up with the latest news and also don't mind
following a few odd threads about some useful technique.

This list and its subject matter, however, are (or should be) very
different. It's used for support for a consumer item that I mostly want
to install and forget about. If I have a problem or question about the
Squeezebox I want to go to forums.slimdevices.com and do a search or post
a question. I make use of numerous other product forums like that. I may
not visit one for several months, then I undertake a new project, run into
a problem, or have a simple question and will visit the forums for a
couple days or weeks.

I think that ideally the Slim forums will also be segmented further,
although I realize that may not jive well with the mailing lists. I mean
do people _really_ listen to as much Internet radio as the volume of
postings on that subject would suggest?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Jones" <jones_anthony (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>
To: <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)


> If the issue is newbie users, isn't this an issue for Slimdevices?
>
> Everyone here, is, well here already :-) What is the goal, perceived
> problem
> etc? To help SD sell more units due to a lack of support? Personally
> I'd be highly
> questionable of this, most people don't consider support as a purchasing
> factor ...
> only to discover it's poor when they hit a problem.
>
> Anyways, it seems like SD just needs to setup a decent support site on
> their own
> website. If I was one of the great unwashed of Windows users :-) I'd
> be far more
> reassured by something clearly connected to the vendor than being
> pointed to some
> 3rd party Yahoo group.
>
> I bought a Kuro box recently. Revolution support just sucked and even
> they were able to
> setup a bulletin board system (albeit not the greatest one).
>
> Tony
>
> "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net> wrote in message
> news:200412200620.iBK6JueJ077293 (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com...
>> Because many users are intimidated by email lists or don't even
>> understand
>> what they are, they don't know a gmane from a lion mane.
>>
>> What they do understand is how to put in a simple web address, navigate
>> to
>> the forum they need and read or pose a query.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
>> [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Tony Jones
>> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:57 PM
>> To: discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
>> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>>
>> Between the e-mail list and it's gmane (web and NNTP) versions why
>> would you
>> need something else?
>>
>> I use Yahoo groups all the time, they're fine, but I fail to see what
>> they
>> would provide that this doesn't.
>>
>> ColorMeIgnorant
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> > By the way, I'm content with the email list; I'd rather not deal with
>> > a web-based medium when it can be avoided.

Philip Meyer
2004-12-23, 17:44
>If I have a problem or question about the
>Squeezebox I want to go to forums.slimdevices.com and do a search or post
>a question. I make use of numerous other product forums like that. I may
>not visit one for several months, then I undertake a new project, run into
>a problem, or have a simple question and will visit the forums for a
>couple days or weeks.
>
If everyone does this, then there may be a problem, as there would be lots of posts asking questions, and not many people responding to them.

To me, this is not much different to a user searching a FAQ website, posting a support email directly to Slim Devices, and getting a response. SD might then decide to update the FAQ.

This mailing list is called "discuss" - it is not "support". It needs active participants in order to discuss things.

Phil

JJ
2004-12-23, 18:03
Huh? No support questions??? You and I must be on a different mailing
list.

Like I said, the forums should be divided into different areas, perhaps
including one expressly for support questions (I'd expect and will be
happy if 'support' remains primarily peer support, which is excellent). A
newbies forum would be a great idea too - where users needn't be worried
about getting pounded for asking the same basic questions. That's just
one of many areas where a forum works so much better than a mailing list.
People get (rightly) annoyed when the same old question gets sent out to
10,000 mailing list members. Much less so in a forum.

For the more experienced use a permanent, easily searched set of forums
should go a long way to reducing repeat questions. Most forums packages
let you put up sticky posts and links to FAQs and downloads as well. The
whole format is much more flexible than a mailing list, but the need to
mirror this list may hamper what can really be done. If more forums are
created then Slim would either need to create additional mailing lists, or
have multiple forums dump posts into this one mailing list (if the
software permits) or else have some forums completely separate from any of
the current mailing lists.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Meyer" <slim (AT) hergest (DOT) demon.co.uk>
To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:44 PM
Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)


>>If I have a problem or question about the
>>Squeezebox I want to go to forums.slimdevices.com and do a search or
>>post
>>a question. I make use of numerous other product forums like that. I
>>may
>>not visit one for several months, then I undertake a new project, run
>>into
>>a problem, or have a simple question and will visit the forums for a
>>couple days or weeks.
>>
>
>If everyone does this, then there may be a problem, as there would be
>lots
>of posts asking questions, and not many people responding to them.
>
>To me, this is not much different to a user searching a FAQ website,
>posting
>a support email directly to Slim Devices, and getting a response. SD
>might
>then decide to update the FAQ.
>
>This mailing list is called "discuss" - it is not "support". It needs
>active
>participants in order to discuss things.

Philip Meyer
2004-12-24, 02:18
>Huh? No support questions??? You and I must be on a different mailing
>list.
>
I didn't say this was not a support forum; I was indicating that it is more than support. It is a discussion list, where people can chat about ideas, etc.

>That's just one of many areas where a forum works so much better than a mailing list.
>People get (rightly) annoyed when the same old question gets sent out to
>10,000 mailing list members. Much less so in a forum.
>
I'd still be equally annoyed when the same old question gets posted on a forum. The only difference is that it's less likely to get answered I suppose.

>For the more experienced use a permanent, easily searched set of forums
>should go a long way to reducing repeat questions.
>
I doubt it.

>Most forums packages
>let you put up sticky posts and links to FAQs and downloads as well. The
>whole format is much more flexible than a mailing list, but the need to
>mirror this list may hamper what can really be done.
>
When you join a mailing list, in the initial join response message, you can get links to the FAQ, etc. Any important posts can go to the announcements mailing list, which everyone should be a member of.

The presentation of a forum, and it's ability to be searchable is good. But I wouldn't say it is more flexible than actually reading posts in an email client. I'd say it is a lot poorer for that, and that is the most important feature for me. Plain text may look boring, but it's the content that counts!

Even commenting, like this message, where parts of the message are responded to separately, is so much easier. I can resize my window to see the posting easier. Web forums generally have a fixed text box size.

Phil

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Philip Meyer" <slim (AT) hergest (DOT) demon.co.uk>
>To: "Slim Devices Discussion" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:44 PM
>Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
>
>>>If I have a problem or question about the
>>>Squeezebox I want to go to forums.slimdevices.com and do a search or
>>>post
>>>a question. I make use of numerous other product forums like that. I
>>>may
>>>not visit one for several months, then I undertake a new project, run
>>>into
>>>a problem, or have a simple question and will visit the forums for a
>>>couple days or weeks.
>>>
>>
>>If everyone does this, then there may be a problem, as there would be
>>lots
>>of posts asking questions, and not many people responding to them.
>>
>>To me, this is not much different to a user searching a FAQ website,
>>posting
>>a support email directly to Slim Devices, and getting a response. SD
>>might
>>then decide to update the FAQ.
>>
>>This mailing list is called "discuss" - it is not "support". It needs
>>active
>>participants in order to discuss things.
>
>

Philip Meyer
2004-12-24, 02:26
>Maybe you'd be amazed to know that web forums work very well for most small
>electronic products like the Squeezebox.
>
But how can you say that it would not work better if there was a mailing list too?

>Every other MP3 player I own has a forum and finding information is very
>easy, a quick search finds virtually anything one would want to know.

I'm quite happy with the way things have been set up with Slim Devices lists having a forum front end too. Just as long as the mailing list stays active.

I'd like to think that as the slimserver is open source and it has been maturing through discussion, this will continue, even though people seem to want less mail and only infrequently visit forums to find the answers to their questions without entering the overall discussion.

Believe it or not, there are people who want to read every post, and therefore to be able to track what they have read, and to discuss new features in a chatty sort of way. For that to happen, I hope the mailing list will be present for ever.

This discussion is now finished!

Phil