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Jason
2004-12-17, 12:30
Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as at
least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
(Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy to
use and less intimidating than an email list server.

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O. Lepard
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
To: Slim Devices Discussion
Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)

> PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
> searching and reading would be MUCH easier.

I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep up
on the discussions.

I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it this
way.

Kevin
--
Kevin O. Lepard
kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net

Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

Mike Hartley
2004-12-17, 13:14
Jason,
I'm a bit surprised too. I'm not a newbie by any stretch, but I really do
prefer a web based forum. I wasn't thrilled with having to share my e-mail
address with the world to participate in the conversation here. (Yes, I
know that you can set up multiple e-mail accounts, but I wanted some
information rather quickly) I know there is a strong geek-factor associated
with the product and a strong independent flavor because of the open source
nature of the product development. But there is also a goal to sell product
to as wide an audience as possible, which means that the support/general
information forum needs to be in the least intimidating, easiest to use
format for the average consumer.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net>
To: "'Slim Devices Discussion'" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)


> Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as
at
> least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
> core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
> as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
> (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy
to
> use and less intimidating than an email list server.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O.
Lepard
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
> To: Slim Devices Discussion
> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
> > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
> > searching and reading would be MUCH easier.
>
> I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
> overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep
up
> on the discussions.
>
> I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it
this
> way.
>
> Kevin
> --
> Kevin O. Lepard
> kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net
>
> Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.
>

kdf
2004-12-17, 13:55
you would be less surprised if you had bothered to read the postings from Dean
regarding the options. One ws given for a web forum, and the response was
heavy on the side of making no changes until somethig with better options comes
along. The decision was then annouced that the list would remain as is for
now. Given this information, it is extirely unsurprising that this list is
still this list. Slim Devices generally tend to stick to their word.

-kdf

Quoting Mike Hartley <mhartley (AT) comsolusa (DOT) com>:

> Jason,
> I'm a bit surprised too. I'm not a newbie by any stretch, but I really do
> prefer a web based forum. I wasn't thrilled with having to share my e-mail
> address with the world to participate in the conversation here. (Yes, I
> know that you can set up multiple e-mail accounts, but I wanted some
> information rather quickly) I know there is a strong geek-factor associated
> with the product and a strong independent flavor because of the open source
> nature of the product development. But there is also a goal to sell product
> to as wide an audience as possible, which means that the support/general
> information forum needs to be in the least intimidating, easiest to use
> format for the average consumer.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net>
> To: "'Slim Devices Discussion'" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:30 PM
> Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
>
>
> > Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as
> at
> > least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
> > core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
> > as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
> > (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy
> to
> > use and less intimidating than an email list server.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
> > [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O.
> Lepard
> > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
> > To: Slim Devices Discussion
> > Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
> >
> > > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
> > > searching and reading would be MUCH easier.
> >
> > I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
> > overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep
> up
> > on the discussions.
> >
> > I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it
> this
> > way.
> >
> > Kevin
> > --
> > Kevin O. Lepard
> > kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net
> >
> > Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.
> >

Philip Meyer
2004-12-17, 16:43
I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits, just lots of negatives.

>For customers who don't wish to be
>involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
>is a big problem.
Why? Will the content of traffic change if the list suddenly becomes a forum? Are you saying that emails are too technical?

>Forums work very well for many products and interests
Forums also work very badly for many products and interests.

>I participate in several. Eventually, as list traffic increases, it will be the only option.
I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have to log on to several different sites, using different accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really. I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.

The only way I can see a forum helping when list traffic increases, is that less people are likely to post, as less people will read it!

I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how emails work???).

Phil

kdf
2004-12-17, 17:51
If anyone can name a package that provides a web forum system, with the option
for individual emails to and from the forum, then I'll be the first one to
carry the flag for the charge. Until then, that is the ONLY way to satisfy the
two sides of this argument, no matter how much either side rants. Change for
change sake is pointless. Changing from one format that lets agree 50%
dislike, to another format that 50% dislike is pointless. Arguing about it
continuously, while using the point that the traffic in this email list is the
problem...well, you can sort that one out :)

I put the challenge forth. find a package that does both. A forum with only
digest emails doesn't cut it, they must be individual. The harsh fact is that
slimserver relies on it contributors, and those are technical people. From
what I can tell, they are possibly the more vocal on the side of email. It
seems a solid plan to not want to lsoe them just to 'maybe' gain more occsional
forum readers. How are they served if those who give so much time to offer
help, are no longer around to offer help? As for splitting up lists, I propose
an ihatemails (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com to help clear up some traffic ;) More
seriously, there is a lot of traffic that could be aimed through the dev list
instead since that is probably a better home for the more technical
discussions.

I expect I've just confirmed some people's feeling that I'm mr meanie, but I
also expect perhaps a few people will be pissed off enough to prove me stupid
and actually FIND the package that will solve the problem.

On the plus side, I'm going to bow out of this topic, and any others that
continue the same old argument (and same old points) without a valid solution
to answer to both sides.

cheers,
kdf
ps...keep smilin'; I am.

Aaron Zinck
2004-12-17, 17:56
Perhaps a newsreader accomodate you with most of these issues? I don't
receive any slim emails--whenever I want to check the slim list I just fire
up my newsreader and the threads appear neatly before me, sortable by any
field. Threads that contain unread messages show in bold so that I can
quickly get caught up on the latest news, and I can block threads in which I
have no interest. Pretty straightforward!


"John M." <mail (AT) machtinger (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:200412180017.iBI0HSeJ024330 (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com...
> Quoting Phil:
>
> > I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically
> > nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits,
> > just lots of negatives.
>
> The main benefit is that you don't have to go through 50+ e-mails a day
just
> to see the topics you're interested in. Most people aren't interested in
> Perl programming, but some are. Most people don't listen to National
Public
> Radio over their SB, but some do. People can participate in the topics
that
> are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of e-mail.
>
> If I go out of town for a week, I'll have 250 e-mail messages in my Slim
> mailbox. I'm an enthusiast, but my new SB is only one of my interests.
Do
> I want to go through 250 e-mail messages? What a hassle! Just think
about
> what the more casual SB owners will have to do: not participate in the
> e-mail list(s), and then manually search the Discuss list archives to find
> the answer to their questions. Or use the gmane web interface to the
list,
> which is not very enjoyable to use considering the web-based forums most
> people are used to.
>
> > I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have
> > to log on to several different sites, using different
> > accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really.
> > I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of
> > useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.
>
> You're the second person today who mentioned having to log onto the forums
> and use different passwords. That doesn't make sense to me. Don't you
use
> cookies? Do you browse the whole web without cookies? I never have to
log
> in to any web forum. When I go to the website it always says Welcome John
> (or something like that). Even if you don't use cookies, you can use the
> same password for each forum if you want. Web forum passwords don't have
to
> be secure. The liklihood someone will use your password to log onto a
> different forum and make posts is very remote.
>
> As far as participating, you can particpate as much as you want to. If
> you're a dedicated e-mail list user, you would be a dedicated web forum
> user. It's the exact same communications that are going on. They're just
> arranged differently. Sometimes it's easier to chime in with a response
to
> a specific e-mail than it is to decide to post on a forum thread. But
> that's the price for everything being neatly arranged by topic.
>
> > I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list
> > into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion
> > of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement
> > requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this
> > one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how
> > emails work???).
>
> I can imagine my father saying, "I won't learn how to use a computer
because
> that's for newbies. Doesn't anyone use a typewriter anymore?" Which one
is
> the modern method? ;)
>
> I don't want to take away anyone's e-mail list. If this list is part of
how
> I arrived at my SB and my software and everything else I got for
> $210+shipping+sales tax, then I'm all for keeping things the way they are.
> But this is a competetive marketplace, and I think whatever suits the SB
> best is what should be done.
>
> If the list means that casual users will chose an inferior device by
> Creative instead because they perceive a lack of available product
support,
> then a web forum would be better. If keeping things e-mail based means
that
> the SB will always be updated and supported by an active user community
that
> would not exist without the e-mail list, then that's the best thing for
it.
> All I know is that I love my new SB, I'm listening to my CDs again, and I
> want this company to stay strong.

Jack Coates
2004-12-17, 19:51
Philip Meyer wrote:
> I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits, just lots of negatives.
>

same here.

>
>>For customers who don't wish to be
>>involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
>>is a big problem.
>
> Why? Will the content of traffic change if the list suddenly becomes a forum? Are you saying that emails are too technical?
>

I think I finally figured this out during the last stupid argument on
this stupid subject. The issue is apparently people who are too [insert
a non-derogatory term that fits here] to change email clients from
Outlook/Outlook Express, which apparently have poor filtering rules and
are unable to reliably manage email lists. It's been many years since I
used either, but I seem to recall they could do this sort of thing back
in the '98 versions, so maybe it's a general configuration issue.

At this point, I hope that Slim Devices does start a forum, in addition
to this list, purely in order to stop the arguments. I think that we've
established pretty clearly that some of us really want a forum, some of
us really want mailing lists, and neither party can figure out what's
wrong with the other party (but both parties are certain that there's
something wrong with those people). Since there doesn't seem to be a
technological solution allowing for having+eating cake, allowing the
community to split along this natural fault line seems like an okay
solution.

>
>>Forums work very well for many products and interests
>
> Forums also work very badly for many products and interests.
>
>
>>I participate in several. Eventually, as list traffic increases, it will be the only option.
>
> I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have to log on to several different sites, using different accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really. I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.
>
> The only way I can see a forum helping when list traffic increases, is that less people are likely to post, as less people will read it!
>
> I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how emails work???).
>
> Phil

I'm a member of several so that I can use them when I have to, but I
don't actively participate in any of them because the technology is
unacceptably user-unfriendly to 32 year old dinosaurs like me :-) I'm
not going to participate on a Slim Devices forum either. Both community
technologies should probably be provided, since this particular
community is spinning its wheels over a ridiculous issue.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

Philip Meyer
2004-12-18, 02:46
>The main benefit is that you don't have to go through 50+ e-mails a day just
>to see the topics you're interested in.
I don't see how a forum helps with that? Whether 50+ emails or 50+ postings to a forum, you still have to look at them in order to see the topics you're interested in. Personally, I find email easier and faster at managing this process.

>Most people aren't interested in Perl programming, but some are.
So:
1. The programming messages should be posted to the developers mailing list; if an individual doesn't want that list, he shouldn't subscribe to it!

2. If there is a topic that you are not interested in, mark the topic as ignore, or read, and don't read it! Just because it's an email doesn't mean you have to read it.

>People can participate in the topics that
>are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of e-mail.
>
People can participate in the topics that are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of website navigation.

>If I go out of town for a week, I'll have 250 e-mail messages in my Slim
>mailbox. I'm an enthusiast, but my new SB is only one of my interests. Do
>I want to go through 250 e-mail messages? What a hassle!
>
But the fact we may have 250+ email messages is a good thing, as we know exactly what posts need to be quick-scanned to catch up. If I want to read all new posts, I can easily identify them. If I am a more casual reader, I may unsubscribe whilst I'm away, or simply mark all posts as read when I get back.

What benefit does a forum give here? If there were a few threads I was interested in, and I wanted to see new thread postings, I'd have to navigate through a series of web pages to see what has changed. What a hassle!

>If the list means that casual users will chose an inferior device by
>Creative instead because they perceive a lack of available product support,
>then a web forum would be better.
There is a website offering many options for tech support. I can't see any perceived lack of product support from slim devices.

I have recently used the Creative web forum actually. I wanted to ask a question about an incompatibility between my soundcard and an application. I posted the question and didn't get any response. I kept checking back every day, logging in, and then trying to find the correct sub-forum, then scrolling around trying to find my topic post. They probably don't get to see every post, missing the occasional one as it can't be that obvious that there are new posts. I think I should have emailed tech support instead.

>All I know is that I love my new SB, I'm listening to my CDs again, and I
>want this company to stay strong.
>
Ah, I agree with that! :)

Phil

Philip Meyer
2004-12-18, 02:47
>How can there be "nothing" going for them when they are now how 99% of the
>information for consumer products like the Squeezebox are relayed and
>discussed?
>
Hmm, are you saying that Squeezebox is the least sucessful consumer product, that it's in the bottom 1% and slimdevices have to move to a forum to compete?


>It's elitest/exclusive attitudes like this that are at the root of the
>refusal to move forward.

I hardly think moving to a forum would be a move forward. I'm just trying to put an argument forwards as to why email lists are obviously a better approach than a forum approach. You still haven't provided any counter argument.

The web wasn't created for this sort of purpose. Emails and newsgroups were designed for this.

Anyway, the list has been through this argument enough now. Let's just get on with discussing the fabulous product and listening to music!

Phil

John L Fjellstad
2004-12-18, 03:27
On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 04:51:29PM -0800, kdf wrote:
>
> If anyone can name a package that provides a web forum system, with the option
> for individual emails to and from the forum, then I'll be the first one to
> carry the flag for the charge.

I wonder if the solution isn't a better webinterface to gmane. You
basically have the best solution to three worlds: email, newsgroup and
web. And the gmane backend will keep all three groups insync. Of
course, someone has to write that interface.

--
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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Robin Bowes
2004-12-18, 05:22
Jason wrote:
> How can there be "nothing" going for them when they are now how 99% of the
> information for consumer products like the Squeezebox are relayed and
> discussed?

Show me where you got that figure?

> It's elitest/exclusive attitudes like this that are at the root of the
> refusal to move forward.

If you read previous messages this list you would see that Dean asked
the question and had a lot of responses. His considered assessment of
the collective opinion was that the majority would prefer to stay with a
list.

That's not elitest or exclusive, nor is it a refusal to move forward. A
proposal was made, opinion was sought, and the outcome was decided on
majority opinion. I think you'll find that is usually called "democracy".

To repeat, if you don't like receiving a lot of mailing list traffic use
the gmane archive. You can use a news reader, web browser, or RSS feed.

Here's the information:

News interface:

news://news.gmane.org:119/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general

(clicking the link should work)

Web interface:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
or
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general

RSS Feed:
http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general

All of this information is summarised here:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general

Guys, can we put this in the FAQ?

R.
--
http://robinbowes.com

Anthony James
2004-12-18, 07:06
I'll just add the suggestion that i put forward before..... If you
want a forum think about a Gmail account.

- the big advantage of a web forum is for newbies who can easily
search for answers. Gmane SHOULD give this functionality but the
search facility is somehow unsatisfactory.

- I've not tried a lot of newsreaders but found Thunderbird had as
many issues as Outlook Express and was often even more difficult to
track a thread in.

My recommendation is to set up a google gmail account just for this
mailing list if you'd prefer a forum. The message threading is
excellent and it actually looks a lot like a forum - the most recent
messages rise to the top and, coming from google, the search is near
faultless. You wont have the archive but you'll get everything from
now on and with 2 gig of storage you wont need to delete any messages
in the near future (a couple of months of this list have taken 14meg).

Daniel Cohen
2004-12-18, 08:39
On 18/12/04 at 12:22 pm +0000, Robin Bowes wrote
>If you read previous messages this list you would see that Dean
>asked the question and had a lot of responses. His considered
>assessment of the collective opinion was that the majority would
>prefer to stay with a list.
>
>That's not elitest or exclusive, nor is it a refusal to move
>forward. A proposal was made, opinion was sought, and the outcome
>was decided on majority opinion. I think you'll find that is usually
>called "democracy".

I prefer a list myself, and it's clear that this is the majority
opinion of those currently on the list.

What we don't know is whether the structure of the current list, as
opposed to a web forum, actively discourages people from asking
questions, and maybe even from buying a Squeezebox. I'm not sure how
we could work this out, the fact that many products have a web fourm
rather than a mailing list could be due to so many factors.
--
Daniel Cohen

dean
2004-12-18, 11:52
Here's the plan:

We'll be keeping the existing mailing lists.

We'll also be providing a custom (not gmane, but gmane-like) web
interface, based on Gossamer Forums, that will provide the ability
browsing, searching and posting from the web. (The posting may come a
little later as it depends on adding some new functionality.)

We'll be keeping the RSS feed, the feed to gmane, and the news feed.

-dean

On Dec 18, 2004, at 4:22 AM, Robin Bowes wrote:

> Jason wrote:
>> How can there be "nothing" going for them when they are now how 99%
>> of the
>> information for consumer products like the Squeezebox are relayed and
>> discussed?
>
> Show me where you got that figure?
>
>> It's elitest/exclusive attitudes like this that are at the root of the
>> refusal to move forward.
>
> If you read previous messages this list you would see that Dean asked
> the question and had a lot of responses. His considered assessment of
> the collective opinion was that the majority would prefer to stay with
> a list.
>
> That's not elitest or exclusive, nor is it a refusal to move forward.
> A proposal was made, opinion was sought, and the outcome was decided
> on majority opinion. I think you'll find that is usually called
> "democracy".
>
> To repeat, if you don't like receiving a lot of mailing list traffic
> use the gmane archive. You can use a news reader, web browser, or RSS
> feed.
>
> Here's the information:
>
> News interface:
>
> news://news.gmane.org:119/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
>
> (clicking the link should work)
>
> Web interface:
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
> or
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
>
> RSS Feed:
> http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
>
> All of this information is summarised here:
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.music.equipment.slimdevices.general
>
> Guys, can we put this in the FAQ?
>
> R.
> --
> http://robinbowes.com
>
>