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DanSmedra
2015-12-24, 07:56
TIDAL is set to roll out MQA streaming shortly, with no increase in subscription cost. http://www.whathifi.com/news/tidal-to-launch-hi-res-audio-streaming-in-2016

Are any of our coding gurus (mherger, pippin, triode, erland, etc.) for Squeezebox, MySqueezebox, ickStream at work to see this happen in this realm?

Are there royalty or licencing issues at the player level?

Julf
2015-12-25, 02:21
Are there royalty or licencing issues at the player level?

Considering it is a totally closed technology, the answer is most likely to be "yes".

totoroBounced
2017-01-11, 23:28
Hi Everyone,

I use a Mytek Brooklyn with built-in MQA decoding. I was hoping that the Tidal plugin would pass-through but it won't.

MQA data is typically 48/24, but the DAC says it's still getting 44/16 streaming MQA from Tidal.

I'm wondering if there is a simple fix? The plugin does not need to decode MQA, just pass it along like any other PCM stream.

Ideas?

Best,


E

adamdea
2017-01-12, 08:39
Hi Everyone,

I use a Mytek Brooklyn with built-in MQA decoding. I was hoping that the Tidal plugin would pass-through but it won't.

MQA data is typically 48/24, but the DAC says it's still getting 44/16 streaming MQA from Tidal.

I'm wondering if there is a simple fix? The plugin does not need to decode MQA, just pass it along like any other PCM stream.

Ideas?

Best,


E
I wonder whether it might be possible to use waveinput plugin if you had the tidal desktop application running on the same device as LMS?

daverich4
2017-01-12, 11:24
Hi Everyone,

I use a Mytek Brooklyn with built-in MQA decoding. I was hoping that the Tidal plugin would pass-through but it won't.

MQA data is typically 48/24, but the DAC says it's still getting 44/16 streaming MQA from Tidal.

I'm wondering if there is a simple fix? The plugin does not need to decode MQA, just pass it along like any other PCM stream.

Ideas?

Best,


E

There are some settings you have to change within Tidal. I think what you're after is at the bottom of this post.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/mqa-tidal-where-are-we-now/

netchord
2017-01-12, 13:26
There are some settings you have to change within Tidal. I think what you're after is at the bottom of this post.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/mqa-tidal-where-are-we-now/

that's for the desktop application, not the LMS plugin.

i'm actually a little surprised, since i thought the SB would just see a 24/48 FLAC container and pass it along via the digital out.

which player and output are you using? i wonder if there's a setting amiss in File Types?

i've been listening to the MQA files via my transporter, not decoded of course, but to my ears they sound superior to the same album in non MQA format. the non-MQA Tidal files are 16/44, these should be 24/48.

Julf
2017-01-13, 04:45
i've been listening to the MQA files via my transporter, not decoded of course, but to my ears they sound superior to the same album in non MQA format.

That indicates that the source material is different (mastering/EQ/whatever), as undecoded MQA should sound the same as the non-MQA file if the source material is identical.

Mnyb
2017-01-13, 04:49
Pass trough to mqa able DAC should work ? I think someone has testet this with files already ?

Must be a tidal setting ( or file types settting ) or some specific to tidal app

And i expect that replay gain or any other volume than 100% to break the decoding .

netchord
2017-01-14, 09:56
That indicates that the source material is different (mastering/EQ/whatever), as undecoded MQA should sound the same as the non-MQA file if the source material is identical.


the non-MQA Tidal files are 16/44, these should be 24/48.

i suspect this is the reason.

Recoveryone
2017-01-14, 11:21
I guess the real question is, will there be an upgrade to the LMS, Tidal app, Touch or any other Squeezebox to support this file format in its native form for playback?
I have an account and thinking about going with the HiFi package, but it would be a waste if I can't use it with my squeezebox system.

netchord
2017-01-14, 15:20
I guess the real question is, will there be an upgrade to the LMS, Tidal app, Touch or any other Squeezebox to support this file format in its native form for playback?
I have an account and thinking about going with the HiFi package, but it would be a waste if I can't use it with my squeezebox system.

you can use HiFi with squeezeboxen, and it sounds great.

DanSmedra
2017-01-19, 08:30
I guess the real question is, will there be an upgrade to the LMS, Tidal app, Touch or any other Squeezebox to support this file format in its native form for playback?
I have an account and thinking about going with the HiFi package, but it would be a waste if I can't use it with my squeezebox system.

If you've listened to or read any of Bob Stewart's (MQA creator) presentations, there are several component parts (some software based, others hardware based) to MQA. One of the best recent articles is by John Darko here: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/mqa-tidal-where-are-we-now/#comment-140297.

Based on Darko's explanation, the best SB/LMS/ickStream users can hope for is for some software gurus/experts to write a patch/plugin (for SBT and/or LMS) which recognizes the MQA encoded file from TIDAL and performs the first (48kHz to 96kHz) 'decode' of the MQA's 'audio origami' technique.

"In other words, a 24bit/48kHz MQA file (standard currently available) streamed via the Tidal MQA-mod desktop app (insert possible modified SB here) will reach the downstream DAC as a 24bit/96kHz file, whether that DAC is MQA-certified or not" Darko.

MQA-certified DACs will decode higher resolutions files at the hardware level, up to 382.8kHz, IF that was encapsulated originally.

MQA files from TIDAL HiFi/Master are also said to benefit from correction of "the time domain smearing caused by the original A/D converter. Even if you don’t have an MQA DAC and you don’t have software that executes hi-res unfolding, an uptick in sound quality might still be heard, especially on a more resolving hifi system" Darko. I believe I may be hearing this.

My Dilemma: I was extraordinarily fortunate to come by a used PS Audio DL3 DAC, which together with Martin Logan Purity speakers, is so good, I'm reluctant to upgrade the DAC to something lesser that is MQA-certified.

LeeRankin
2017-01-20, 07:15
Based on Darko's explanation, the best SB/LMS/ickStream users can hope for is for some software gurus/experts to write a patch/plugin (for SBT and/or LMS) which recognizes the MQA encoded file from TIDAL and performs the first (48kHz to 96kHz) 'decode' of the MQA's 'audio origami' technique.

"In other words, a 24bit/48kHz MQA file (standard currently available) streamed via the Tidal MQA-mod desktop app (insert possible modified SB here) will reach the downstream DAC as a 24bit/96kHz file, whether that DAC is MQA-certified or not" Darko.



I'm not sure on this point to be honest - not if you have an MQA dac. I have a Meridian Explorer connected via EDO, which doesn't require any software decoding of the MQA material. The passthrough option in the Tidal app switches off software decoding, i can do this with a laptop - Explorer2 setup, works well. The question for LMS and the Squeezebox chain is how to access this undecoded stream via the Tidal app and pass it on bit perfect to the player - edo out - explorer (or other mqa dac), for full decoding.

Granted a software solution in LMS would be welcome but that is not the only restriction for those of us with appropriate DAC's.

DanSmedra
2017-01-20, 08:38
I have confirmed that the TIDAL MQA Master quality tracks can be partially decoded (one unfold to 24bit/96kHz + the benefit of correction for the time domain smearing caused by the original A/D converter) via TIDAL's desktop app (Windows or Mac).

Rumor has it that hi-res playback software applications (e.g. Roon, Amarra, and Audirvana) are being modified to take similar advantage of this " uptick in sound quality."

So the questions seems to be, who worked on the TIDAL app for Squeezebox (Logitech, TIDAL, or combo), who is capable of doing modifications for MQA today, and are they 'in the works'?

Modification to the TIDAL plugin would eliminate the need to use a laptop in place of SBT and thus extend the life of our Logitech products. Volunteers?
_______________________________

Happy User Steven Stone: http://audiophilereview.com/cd-dac-digital/mqa-master-streaming-on-tidal-rules.html

Julf
2017-01-20, 08:52
So the questions seems to be, who worked on the TIDAL app for Squeezebox (Logitech, TIDAL, or combo), who is capable of doing modifications for MQA today, and are they 'in the works'?

I am rather sceptical about MQA licensing a squeezebox implementation.


Modification to the TIDAL plugin would eliminate the need to use a laptop in place of SBT and thus extend the life of our Logitech products. Volunteers?

Or we could just wait for MQA to become the next DVD-audio or 3DTV.... :)

kidstypike
2017-01-20, 09:30
Or we could just wait for MQA to become the next DVD-audio or 3DTV.... :)

The sooner the better. :p

Recoveryone
2017-01-22, 15:12
I don't think MQA will go the way of DVD-A, since its main audience is the download fan base. The download fan base is the largest group of audio listening today, so for a format that can offer a better SQ than Mp3 AND ITunes will finally open up the ears of a generation that has no clue of the differences between Vinyl/CD/SACD/DVD-A compared to Mp3 and ITunes. Its a win win for all of us as the projected usage and demand will increase.

Julf
2017-01-23, 05:44
I don't think MQA will go the way of DVD-A, since its main audience is the download fan base. The download fan base is the largest group of audio listening today, so for a format that can offer a better SQ than Mp3 AND ITunes will finally open up the ears of a generation that has no clue of the differences between Vinyl/CD/SACD/DVD-A compared to Mp3 and ITunes. Its a win win for all of us as the projected usage and demand will increase.

The free and non-license-encumbered lossless FLAC format offers the same sound quality as MQA. If amount of data is an issue, MP3 offers a significant saving in amount of data transmitted, so it is still relevant where people pay for download traffic or have limited storage.

DanSmedra
2017-01-23, 08:14
The free and non-license-encumbered lossless FLAC format offers the same sound quality as MQA. If amount of data is an issue, MP3 offers a significant saving in amount of data transmitted, so it is still relevant where people pay for download traffic or have limited storage.

Your first sentence (assertion) is at odds with everything I've read about MQA over the past two years. Your second statement suggests you're not aware of the issues. Numerous articles are available to read and become educated.

Julf
2017-01-23, 08:39
Your first sentence (assertion) is at odds with everything I've read about MQA over the past two years.

Then you must have been reading very selectively.


Your second statement suggests you're not aware of the issues. Numerous articles are available to read and become educated.

I am quite aware of the issues MQA purports to address. I am just not convinced it addresses them very successfully. If you disagree,
I would love to hear your views.

DanSmedra
2017-01-24, 19:17
Sprint Acquires 33 Percent of TIDAL for $200 million. TIDAL subscriber base increased by 45 million retail customers.

http://www.audiostream.com/content/sprint-acquires-33-percent-tidal#xROudVbK1G2CS2gP.97

"The Sprint-TIDAL partnership comes on the heels of TIDAL’s recent announcement revealing the availability of “Master” quality recordings.
A wide variety of content from labels and artists, including Warner Music Group’s world-renowned music catalogue,
is now available in Master audio across all of TIDAL’s available markets worldwide."

Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/sprint-acquires-33-percent-tidal#8SFv6IJsrRJ8Mkcv.99

Looks like MQA gets a boost. Hopefully, more MQA-certified DACs will be on the horizon.

Recoveryone
2017-01-24, 21:13
My point is to the all ready masses that pay for ITunes/Mp3's. If they get exposed to better SQ at the same price range would force all services to up their game. Flac is a great format, but by it being free (no licensing) you will get studios that will baak at that notion. MQA may be the best bridge to date to bring Hi-Res or better Res SQ to the masses. Digital media is here to stay, and its only getting bigger and bigger, so the next step in the evolution is to make it better. I personal have come from 128kbps to 192kbps and now 320kbps and Flac. Technology hardware has improved to handle the higher resolution, so its only par for the course to have better SQ. Will MQA match SACD/DVD-A, properly not, but SACD/DVD-A will never be able to stream and due to that format war they both lost out. MQA has no rival at this time (just like the CD) and it has a strong chance/opportunity to be a ground breaking medium for the future automated central home system.

Mnyb
2017-01-24, 23:16
Groundbreaking howso ? :D you must be living in your own audiophile filterbubble .

There is this false assumption that better than 16/44.1 is needed for human listeners. Hence this MQA scheme to compress this .
Real research test again and again that basically no one hears a difference between CD and 24/192 for example , I'm normally a fan of mr Stuart's efforts in hifi see my signature ... but not this time.
(The test to do is not comparing CD vs DVDA or SACD but to resample it yourself to 16/44.1 then you realise they rarely use exactly the same master For every release , it s not the formats that's the difference)

VHS vs DVD and CD vs Cassette and Vinyl that was differences in sq and convinience that most people understood .

And the quality of the typical recording ,basically no one statistically is listening to 2L or AIX or any other audiophile label . I have about a shelf of AIX DVDA for example .

Even if MQA claims where true most recordings ever done and the ones that will be done is not even fullfiling the potential of the CD format as it stands now . Even the best ones comes from 24/48 masters ( with the compression used and general noise it could as well be 13/48 ) in the world of music that actually sells so even in rock recording made today there is not much ultrasound to fold inti MQA .

If you can find a recording where it does make a difference , in real terms it's a very very subtle improvement. Audiophiles gets excited over the most tiny of differences it's not revolutionary.

Delivery format is so unimportant compared to the real problem , loudness war recordings and other modern production schemes that makes recordings sound horrible .
There is an truly enormous potential for better sound [/B]within existing formats[/B]if any one wanted to .
But they sell you yet another sticker MQA .

Streaming services they don't like hard work either , so it's basically up to the labels to feed the service as usual , but now it's filter for the MQA flag in place . And the labels just wringe their usual stale recordings true the algorithm and we have yet another version of DSTM :D

A real hifi streaming service would actually manually curate the recordings labeled "hi if" or "hires" a careful selection of masters not necessarily the one the label wants to push . That's real work involving humans I would pay for that , not for another sticker MQA .

I'm not sure alol the audiophiles in the world would make a difference .

toby10
2017-01-25, 01:25
I agree Mnyb.

MQA will remain a niche market for the very few who might care and are willing to buy the hardware and/or install the software to even be able to utilize it. Plus the added data usage cost that fewer still will be willing to pay for. Most streaming is to small portable devices using either ear buds or BlueTooth speakers and neither will really benefit from “audiophile” formats (real or perceived). The much smaller segment of the market that stream to a full stereo system with even decent quality gear where an MQA scheme *might* be a benefit is an extremely small slice of the audio market.

I think MQA will just be added to the long list of failed formats in a market with still too many formats and formats that are just fine for 95% of the market. A better mouse trap doesn’t always succeed if the existing and simpler mouse traps are catching plenty of mice with no additional cost or complications.

Julf
2017-01-25, 02:59
Looks like MQA gets a boost.

Or not - maybe it is a first step of becoming a proprietary, walled-garden service for Sprint (and Softbank in Japan) customers. Telcos don't have a very good record on that score...

Julf
2017-01-25, 03:01
I think MQA will just be added to the long list of failed formats in a market with still too many formats and formats that are just fine for 95% of the market. A better mouse trap doesn’t always succeed if the existing and simpler mouse traps are catching plenty of mice with no additional cost or complications.

Especially if the new mouse trap isn't actually better...

Wombat
2017-01-25, 08:06
They may sell crappy cd versions and if you want better sound you have to stream MQA.
They can play the high resoloution card while the MQA is a complete different master.
Since there are enough people that rely on wishfull thinking and believe they can easily hear Hi$es they will rave about MQA magic all day long.
Thre are enough daydreamers that did swallow the full load when you read around.

Mnyb
2017-01-25, 11:29
They may sell crappy cd versions and if you want better sound you have to stream MQA.
They can play the high resoloution card while the MQA is a complete different master.
Since there are enough people that rely on wishfull thinking and believe they can easily hear Hi$es they will rave about MQA magic all day long.
Thre are enough daydreamers that did swallow the full load when you read around.

Yes , in the unlikely event this ever takes off :/ we will be forced to buy "hirez" to get what should have been a well mastered cd.
Oh well

LeeRankin
2017-07-11, 05:06
is there any hope of LMS integration with MQA material in Tidal any time soon? I am currently running 2 systems concurrently which isn't ideal . I understand this may be a lower priority in the development stakes and really appreciate the fine work the devs do on the Squeezebox platform in general but a quick yeah/nay would be great.

cheers and hear's hoping.

lee

pippin
2017-07-11, 05:47
The problem is that MQA is a proprietary and commercial format.
Someone would have to swallow the certification and license fees.

pippin
2017-07-11, 05:48
Oh, and that someone is probably not going to be Logitech :)

LeeRankin
2017-07-12, 03:00
Oh, and that someone is probably not going to be Logitech :)

yes, very good point. May need to move to the Roon/SBT route with that said and drop LMS which is a real shame.

lee

DanSmedra
2017-09-16, 17:13
An overwhelming majority of Squeezebox owners who are also audiophiles recognize that the SB onboard DAC is not up to audiophile quality.

Using either digital outputs (TOSLINK or COAX), the SB signal bypasses the onboard DAC and allows for substitution of a quality DAC, possible pre-amplifier, and main amplifier.

MQA-certified DACs are designed such that they completely "unfold" (3X) the MQA file* and are "tuned" to each particular DAC hardware implementation. This custom tuning is what pippin previously referred to as "certification and license fees."

Since not all DACs are created equal, what Squeezebox streamer owners want to discover is which MQA-certified DAC will give the best sound to THEIR ears with THEIR amplifier and speakers.
________________________________________

* http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/how-it-works and http://bobtalks.co.uk/blog/science-mqa/mqa-playback/

Julf
2017-09-17, 04:11
An overwhelming majority of Squeezebox owners who are also audiophiles recognize that the SB onboard DAC is not up to audiophile quality.

What is that statement based on? How large is that "overwhelming" majority?

By the way, there is a separate "audiophile" section for audiophile discussions.

Wombat
2017-09-17, 07:12
What Squeezebox streamer owners need to discover and want to know is which MQA-certified DAC sounds best with their particularly-configured audiophile system.

It makes no sense. If MQA sounds exactly like intended in the studio all MQA DACs can't sound different. Or is it MQA that makes no sense?