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View Full Version : Can Raspberry Pi, HiFiBerry, Max2Play, PiCorePlayerOS etc save the Squeezebox system?



dsdreamer
2015-11-28, 14:29
Hi Guys,

I must say I am impressed by the amount of Squeezebox-related innovation that's happening everywhere these days, basically by hobbyists and the more technically-able users, but which nevertheless seems a very positive trend to me. Some key enablers have been Logitech's enlightened GPL licensing of LMS, Adrian's wonderful Squeezelite program, continued improvements to the server platform by Michael Herger among others and the explosion in popularity of low-cost ARM platforms such as the Raspberry Pi, Odroid, Wandboard etc.

This seems to show two things:
1) People who know about Squeezebox really love the system and will go to great lengths to keep it running even without commercial hardware support
2) I think high-quality as opposed to high-end audio systems are more widely appreciated by a broader spectrum of the population than we had seen in recent years, but with an emphasis that has shifted away from high-end, elitist audio foolery to embrace digital downloads, audio streamers and kilo-buck headphone rigs.

This should be good news, however, there are still some causes for concern among Squeezebox devotees:
1) At some point, Logitech will presumably want to shut down MySqueezebox.com and stop funding the CDN that supports it. Will Ickstream be a stable and good substitute by then?
2) The lack of commercial hardware remains problematic. The knock against Squeezebox, even in its heyday, was that it was too demanding technically for the average consumer. Now that obtaining new player hardware requires DIY skills, the barrier to adoption is higher than ever.

Logitech's regrettable exit has left a sizable gap in the market between a $35 Chromecast audio box from Google and a Sonus Connect box at $350.

It confounds me that no-one finds it economically viable to make a box that retails for $250 provides a really high quality audio streaming client. We're getting pretty close to that objective with some pre-assembled kits such as this one: http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/appareils-hifi-dac/audiophonics-raspdac-lecteur-reseau-raspberry-pi-20-dac-sabre-p-10369.html. (I realize there is a big difference between selling a barebones audio computer and a fully finished streamer with all appropriate codec patent licenses paid up and CE-certified for electrical safety etc.) I would love to see a reputable company take on this challenge and make a fully finished and supported, Squeezebox-compatible product at around the price-point that was once occupied by Squeezebox touch.

I would be interested in any reactions of comments. E.g., does the Raspberry Pi phenomenon help or hinder the chances of Squeezebox systems staying with us for the next 5+ years? Is a commercial Squeezebox replacement, which seems so easy to assemble for the hobbyist really a non-starter as a commercial enterprise? If so, why?

Charles

Squeezemenicely
2015-11-29, 03:43
Well, there was the Community player project, which died - and it's members mysteriously vanished, then Jackofall wanted to release a sort of pseudocommercial product (if I understood it right) but nothing ever came of that.

It is great that joint forces are keeping the system alive and making it better than it ever was before. Giving us cheap options with the Pi etc. to get the best and most versatile Multiroom music system in the world for a fraction of the cost of other established systems.
But, it is also a shame, we cannot go out and just buy a new Boomlike device or a Touch alternative without DIY. I wonder if it would be possible for a company to make Players for the Open LMS that would be able to run with the system, without any drama. Something scared good developers away, I have no idea about legalities -but would a company wanting to put out hardware for the squeeze ecosystem have to buy the concept from Logitech? Getting a "real" company that will push the Squeeze system and revive it for commercial products would be the very best option, meaning that new streamingservices would show interest in getting supported.

The biggest problem was simply that Squeeze was born too early and died before the buyers realized what musicstreaming was about. Heck, now kids hardly know what a CDplayer looks like. Times change. Logitech pulled the plug too soon and that is something I will never understand.

cliveb
2015-11-29, 13:12
It strikes me that the Squeezebox ecosystem has already migrated to the technical hobbyist domain; a bit like MythTV.
And because LMS is open-source, it is likely to remain alive and well for many years to come, but only within that restricted niche.
I personally shall continue to use it (and MythTV) for the foreseeable future.
But as a commercial product it seems pretty much dead - Joe Public isn't going to be interested in fiddling around with Raspberry PIs.

(What happens when mysqueezebox.com shuts down doesn't interest me - I have never used it).

dsdreamer
2015-11-29, 13:52
It strikes me that the Squeezebox ecosystem has already migrated to the technical hobbyist domain; a bit like MythTV.
And because LMS is open-source, it is likely to remain alive and well for many years to come, but only within that restricted niche.
I personally shall continue to use it (and MythTV) for the foreseeable future.
But as a commercial product it seems pretty much dead - Joe Public isn't going to be interested in fiddling around with Raspberry PIs.

(What happens when mysqueezebox.com shuts down doesn't interest me - I have never used it).

I agree with your observation: it has already migrated to the technical hobbyist domain and as such suits my *personal* needs just fine. I guess I wanted to understand better why commercial realizations were not forthcoming since all the key technical problems are solved already. It would be attractive to me if there were a nicely packaged player in a box with ethernet in and audio out on RCA or XLR sockets. The technical barriers to entry seem low to non-existent, but the legal and market-strategy considerations seem to have made this a non-starter. I guess a public forum is not the place to discuss this in detail, but I was hoping to get some clues by posting here.

It would certainly strengthen the ecosystem to have commercial success occur in some fashion, but the mix of open source community-based contributions and commercially motivated concerns seem to have created a very toxic combination in the recent past, not that I claim to have properly understood what happened there.

It just instinctively feels like a lost opportunity to me that's all.

Charles.

DJanGo
2015-11-29, 13:55
And because LMS is open-source, it is likely to remain alive and well for many years to come, but only within that restricted niche.

hmmm

if you take look to the earliest days it was always a open minded community inspired thing.
If i recall some out of these days there was a guy that recodes something and after that he got a job @slimdevices.

Open source - hell yes but honestly there are less guys out there as fingers on one Hand who really know about that sources and how to improve them. LMS is and was always a perl thingy and feel free to get some of the earliest Versions on an up2date System running - good luck to you.

In fact it could be better and worser if no one helps it will dy sometimes sooner or later.
What do you think happens when Michael decides to go?
I dont even think about it.

Julf
2015-11-30, 00:43
Open source - hell yes but honestly there are less guys out there as fingers on one Hand who really know about that sources and how to improve them. LMS is and was always a perl thingy and feel free to get some of the earliest Versions on an up2date System running - good luck to you.

I guess the highest priority should be ensuring we get the protocol fully and properly documented, so that people can re-implement LMS using more modern tools, if needed.

pkfox
2015-11-30, 03:12
Hi Guys,

I must say I am impressed by the amount of Squeezebox-related innovation that's happening everywhere these days, basically by hobbyists and the more technically-able users, but which nevertheless seems a very positive trend to me. Some key enablers have been Logitech's enlightened GPL licensing of LMS, Adrian's wonderful Squeezelite program, continued improvements to the server platform by Michael Herger among others and the explosion in popularity of low-cost ARM platforms such as the Raspberry Pi, Odroid, Wandboard etc.

This seems to show two things:
1) People who know about Squeezebox really love the system and will go to great lengths to keep it running even without commercial hardware support
2) I think high-quality as opposed to high-end audio systems are more widely appreciated by a broader spectrum of the population than we had seen in recent years, but with an emphasis that has shifted away from high-end, elitist audio foolery to embrace digital downloads, audio streamers and kilo-buck headphone rigs.

This should be good news, however, there are still some causes for concern among Squeezebox devotees:
1) At some point, Logitech will presumably want to shut down MySqueezebox.com and stop funding the CDN that supports it. Will Ickstream be a stable and good substitute by then?
2) The lack of commercial hardware remains problematic. The knock against Squeezebox, even in its heyday, was that it was too demanding technically for the average consumer. Now that obtaining new player hardware requires DIY skills, the barrier to adoption is higher than ever.

Logitech's regrettable exit has left a sizable gap in the market between a $35 Chromecast audio box from Google and a Sonus Connect box at $350.

It confounds me that no-one finds it economically viable to make a box that retails for $250 provides a really high quality audio streaming client. We're getting pretty close to that objective with some pre-assembled kits such as this one: http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/appareils-hifi-dac/audiophonics-raspdac-lecteur-reseau-raspberry-pi-20-dac-sabre-p-10369.html. (I realize there is a big difference between selling a barebones audio computer and a fully finished streamer with all appropriate codec patent licenses paid up and CE-certified for electrical safety etc.) I would love to see a reputable company take on this challenge and make a fully finished and supported, Squeezebox-compatible product at around the price-point that was once occupied by Squeezebox touch.

I would be interested in any reactions of comments. E.g., does the Raspberry Pi phenomenon help or hinder the chances of Squeezebox systems staying with us for the next 5+ years? Is a commercial Squeezebox replacement, which seems so easy to assemble for the hobbyist really a non-starter as a commercial enterprise? If so, why?

Charles

Hi there, you make some very interesting observations, as someone who has just built a Ras Pi solution ( server and player on the same box ) I can vouch that all the bits we need to build a very good substitute for Squeezboxes et al are available, as are ready built players. I think what would stop me investing in a business to build a Ras Pi or other such board player is the way people listen to music these days has changed. I speak to lots of people who like music, but unlike me are not obsessed with quality and owning their own huge collection. They don't have or want an expensive hi fi - they have iPhone docks or a Sonos or a PC hooked up to Spotify playing back through cheap speakers ( shudder ) I think we people here are a dying breed ( certainly the audiophiles among us ) . The server software will work for ever and there will always be clever people making good affordable hardware boards , I was a bit skeptical when building my Pi with a Hifiberry pro DAC but was ( and still am ) blown away by the sound quality. Just my two cents.

d6jg
2015-11-30, 03:52
Hi there, you make some very interesting observations, as someone who has just built a Ras Pi solution ( server and player on the same box ) I can vouch that all the bits we need to build a very good substitute for Squeezboxes et al are available, as are ready built players. I think what would stop me investing in a business to build a Ras Pi or other such board player is the way people listen to music these days has changed. I speak to lots of people who like music, but unlike me are not obsessed with quality and owning their own huge collection. They don't have or want an expensive hi fi - they have iPhone docks or a Sonos or a PC hooked up to Spotify playing back through cheap speakers ( shudder ) I think we people here are a dying breed ( certainly the audiophiles among us ) . The server software will work for ever and there will always be clever people making good affordable hardware boards , I was a bit skeptical when building my Pi with a Hifiberry pro DAC but was ( and still am ) blown away by the sound quality. Just my two cents.

This is indeed an interesting debate.
The RaspBerry Pi route is by virtue of the low cost of the Pi a bit of an oddity. It is hi-fi but at a very budget price. Aufiofools like big ticket prices (I am not being facetious here) so other than those who are already wedded to LMS the rest of the Audiofool community is bound to go elsewhere. What someone really needs to do is to build a really really expensive Pi & Dac option with a high quality really nice looking case and fancy power supply and flog it in the Hi-Fi mags.

pkfox
2015-11-30, 04:39
This is indeed an interesting debate.
The RaspBerry Pi route is by virtue of the low cost of the Pi a bit of an oddity. It is hi-fi but at a very budget price. Aufiofools like big ticket prices (I am not being facetious here) so other than those who are already wedded to LMS the rest of the Audiofool community is bound to go elsewhere. What someone really needs to do is to build a really really expensive Pi & Dac option with a high quality really nice looking case and fancy power supply and flog it in the Hi-Fi mags.

Shall we go into business ?

Julf
2015-11-30, 05:10
What someone really needs to do is to build a really really expensive Pi & Dac option with a high quality really nice looking case and fancy power supply and flog it in the Hi-Fi mags.

Indeed. Case has to be machined out of solid ingot of "airspace-grade" aluminium (unless we can do titanium or unobtainium).

d6jg
2015-11-30, 05:36
Indeed. Case has to be machined out of solid ingot of "airspace-grade" aluminium (unless we can do titanium or unobtainium).

It doesn't need to be. We just have to claim it is!

Julf
2015-11-30, 06:23
It doesn't need to be. We just have to claim it is!

Good point. But the marketing material has to mention quantum harmonics!

DJanGo
2015-11-30, 11:47
It doesn't need to be. We just have to claim it is!

hmm nope

in my opinion and to be not OT
Can Raspberry Pi, HiFiBerry, Max2Play, PiCorePlayerOS etc save the Squeezebox system?
The answer is maybe...

Raspberry Pi is a nerdy thing.
Max2play Picoreplayer is made from nerdys?!

If "we" get some attention from the nerds lms could survive a long time.
The audiofools from the more money than brain club - who supports them?
I cant cause i am a nerd with a short fuse answering stupid questions :p

The only way lms can survive (imho) is geting Members from the more brain less money club here.

Julf
2015-11-30, 12:23
The only way lms can survive (imho) is geting Members from the more brain less money club here.

We don't want them here - why not go where they are (CA and the even more extreme "audiophile" sites) and tell them how wonderful a RPI can be if put in a suitably expensive enclosure? Maybe get jkeny to sell it?

mherger
2015-11-30, 14:27
> If i recall some out of these days there was a guy that recodes
> something and after that he got a job @slimdevices.

Many of the SB team got their job this way. I did for sure.

> Open source - hell yes but honestly there are less guys out there as
> fingers on one Hand who really know about that sources and how to
> improve them. LMS is and was always a perl thingy and feel free to get
> some of the earliest Versions on an up2date System running - good luck
> to you.

Funny thing is: Perl always is thrown in to these discussions as a
problem. But the complicated part of adding support for new platforms
isn't the Perl code itself, but the C code we're using...

--

Michael

jimzak
2015-11-30, 17:31
Indeed. Case has to be machined out of solid ingot of "airspace-grade" aluminium (unless we can do titanium or unobtainium).

Here's an example of SB in a high-end device:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/antipodes-ds-music-server/

d6jg
2015-11-30, 17:51
Here's an example of SB in a high-end device:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/antipodes-ds-music-server/

Yep. That's got sufficient bollox in the article to fully qualify it as a"high end" device. Just looks like a mini ATX PC to me though.

Edit. Makes me want pop downstairs and ask the Audiofools if they can hear the difference between an SSD & Sata drive. I am sure you probably can as the SSD is more expensive. Stands to reason doesn't it.

Mnyb
2015-11-30, 23:45
> If i recall some out of these days there was a guy that recodes
> something and after that he got a job @slimdevices.

Many of the SB team got their job this way. I did for sure.

> Open source - hell yes but honestly there are less guys out there as
> fingers on one Hand who really know about that sources and how to
> improve them. LMS is and was always a perl thingy and feel free to get
> some of the earliest Versions on an up2date System running - good luck
> to you.

Funny thing is: Perl always is thrown in to these discussions as a
problem. But the complicated part of adding support for new platforms
isn't the Perl code itself, but the C code we're using...

--

Michael

But a real company can probably solve that ( or buy a solution from you ) how about if another company showed up at logitechs door saying we want to market a squeezebox can we join the club :) it has to be some kind of business deal with my squeezebox com and al . There are already some that do effectively sell squeezebox replacement , but they are more below the radar basement nerd operations :) nothing wrong with that .
But getting logitechs blessing to get mysqueezebox com support and use the squeezebox name is another thing .

Is it even possible to try ? Will such negotiations just die in mire of bureaucracy .

I do think it's is possible , but sadly no one sees a commercial opurtunity here .

( but for some reason every hifi company ever seems compelled to build a bad overpriced dlna streamer that don't sell to well that is then discontinued ... .? )

mherger
2015-12-01, 01:24
> But a real company can probably solve that ( or buy a solution from you
> ) how about if another company showed up at logitechs door saying we
> want to market a squeezebox can we join the club :) it has to be some
> kind of business deal with my squeezebox com and al . There are already
> some that do effectively sell squeezebox replacement , but they are more
> below the radar basement nerd operations :) nothing wrong with that .
> But getting logitechs blessing to get mysqueezebox com support and use
> the squeezebox name is another thing .

Disclaimer: I'm just an engineer. I've got nothing to do with commercial
decisions. Therefore this is my personal point of view:

> Is it even possible to try ?

You can always try, asking is cheap. But imagine you're the owner of a
massive infrastructure (many dozens of servers) to keep a dead product
running. It's only cost, no income any more. Now there's a 3rd party
who's asking you to keep that infrastructure alive to support _their_
products. How much money would you want from them? A lot more than they
would be willing to pay, that's for sure. Because you want to be free to
shut down your money drain any time you want, unless somebody else is
paying for it.

--

Michael

Julf
2015-12-01, 02:05
But imagine you're the owner of a
massive infrastructure (many dozens of servers) to keep a dead product
running. It's only cost, no income any more. Now there's a 3rd party
who's asking you to keep that infrastructure alive to support _their_
products. How much money would you want from them? A lot more than they
would be willing to pay, that's for sure. Because you want to be free to
shut down your money drain any time you want, unless somebody else is
paying for it.


Maybe a more fruitful approach would be for someone to offer to take over the responsibility for that infrastructure?

cliveb
2015-12-01, 02:51
Makes me want pop downstairs and ask the Audiofools if they can hear the difference between an SSD & Sata drive.
I can easily hear the difference between an SSD and HDD - an SSD makes no mechanical noise at all.

Mind you, if there is music playing it will drown out the noise made by a spinning HDD. So an audiofool will only be able to hear the difference when nothing is playing.

(Reminds me of the old days when I had a pair of Naim 135s. When the music stopped after a high-volume listening session you could hear the whirr of its cooling fans. Given that they were probably emitting noise at about 40dBA or more, then if the peak listening level was 110dBA, this means the dynamic range was limited to about 70dB. So much for Naim 135s being "super-fi"! They did boogie well, though).

mherger
2015-12-01, 03:39
> mherger wrote:
>> But imagine you're the owner of a
>> massive infrastructure (many dozens of servers) to keep a dead product
>> running. It's only cost, no income any more. Now there's a 3rd party
>> who's asking you to keep that infrastructure alive to support _their_
>> products. How much money would you want from them? A lot more than they
>> would be willing to pay, that's for sure. Because you want to be free to
>> shut down your money drain any time you want, unless somebody else is
>> paying for it.
>
> Maybe a more fruitful approach would be for someone to offer to take
> over the responsibility for that infrastructure?

And these new owners would be willing to pay for an infrastructure which
for the time being would be serving 99%+ of customers they will never
see a cent from?

--

Michael

Julf
2015-12-01, 04:07
And these new owners would be willing to pay for an infrastructure which
for the time being would be serving 99%+ of customers they will never
see a cent from?


Sounds like the normal dot-com business plan, doesn't it? :)

Squeezemenicely
2015-12-01, 04:59
Why so complicated? A new company could theoretically buy the concept and run their own servers for their customers, or also buy into ickstream and then sell hardware.
The old Logitech customers could/would log itno mysqueezebox.com as long as it is alive and if they wanted access to the new online service (which really is not needed anyway), they would have to buy a new device from "Supersqueeze" or whatever it might be called.
I think that it would be best to have LMS run all streaming services via plugin and completely without mysqueezebox anyway. That way we would not have to be scared if someone pulls the plug.

Julf
2015-12-01, 05:05
I think that it would be best to have LMS run all streaming services via plugin and completely without mysqueezebox anyway. That way we would not have to be scared if someone pulls the plug.

I agree, but unfortunately the streaming services aren't a technical problem - it is a licensing issue.

DJanGo
2015-12-01, 05:12
Why so complicated? A new company could theoretically buy the concept and run their own servers for their customers, or also buy into ickstream and then sell hardware.
The old Logitech customers could/would log itno mysqueezebox.com as long as it is alive and if they wanted access to the new online service (which really is not needed anyway), they would have to buy a new device from "Supersqueeze" or whatever it might be called.
I think that it would be best to have LMS run all streaming services via plugin and completely without mysqueezebox anyway. That way we would not have to be scared if someone pulls the plug.

?
There are some kind of guys ....


offliner like me who even kicked the radiostuff out of the gui
onliner (radio guys)
techys (guys/woman with ideas)
audiop. (if it cheep it wont be good)


Offliner like me doesnt spend money to anyone except the music stores
Money just came from masses.
Radioguys you get money from them and spend it to the radiostations.
nontechys - you need a support that isnt cheap.

Please stay ON Topic

Can Raspberry Pi, HiFiBerry, Max2Play, PiCorePlayerOS etc save the Squeezebox system


Not sell things to someone or do you want to buy Michaels office and the Server Room?
If i had a hammer i would...
If i had a toy i could
if there is no word like if - of course right now i am a millionair:o

Mnyb
2015-12-01, 08:06
> But a real company can probably solve that ( or buy a solution from you
> ) how about if another company showed up at logitechs door saying we
> want to market a squeezebox can we join the club :) it has to be some
> kind of business deal with my squeezebox com and al . There are already
> some that do effectively sell squeezebox replacement , but they are more
> below the radar basement nerd operations :) nothing wrong with that .
> But getting logitechs blessing to get mysqueezebox com support and use
> the squeezebox name is another thing .

Disclaimer: I'm just an engineer. I've got nothing to do with commercial
decisions. Therefore this is my personal point of view:

> Is it even possible to try ?

You can always try, asking is cheap. But imagine you're the owner of a
massive infrastructure (many dozens of servers) to keep a dead product
running. It's only cost, no income any more. Now there's a 3rd party
who's asking you to keep that infrastructure alive to support _their_
products. How much money would you want from them? A lot more than they
would be willing to pay, that's for sure. Because you want to be free to
shut down your money drain any time you want, unless somebody else is
paying for it.

--

Michael

I to tend to think like that to sometimes .

But the equally not soo good idea of building a "me too" dlna streamer or recieva product is still popular .

What keeps me positive is that this is till the best system :)

But a non techie friend of mine setup a sonos play 3 the other day striagth from the iPad app with no knowledge of it whatsover ...

So a takeover of squeeze to widen the audience slightly may include more expenses than the server park . Some massive spurt of new development , the best system can be better . Mass market would expect it to adjust tags rip CD's have a music download shop etc and all streaming services .
so it's very uphill to leave the niche .

But why not settle for being good in this niche off music entusiast with terabytes of local files , like me . It's a big world you can be sucessfull in niches too .

I'm a bit inbetween i listen to 90% my own files and expereince new stuff trough services and the ocasional science talk radio stuff . And sometimes actuall Radio .

cliveb
2015-12-01, 08:45
But a non techie friend of mine setup a sonos play 3 the other day striagth from the iPad app with no knowledge of it whatsover ...
This is the core of the issue. The Squeezebox ecosystem is complex because it is so flexible.
Sonos is simple to operate because it's a closed system and the users get only the facilities that Sonos dictates.
If the Squeezebox ecosystem were simplified so that it's as easy to use as Sonos, it would lose the very flexibility that makes it unique and so appealing to us.

Let me liken it to the process of preparing food.
The Squeezebox approach is akin to obtaining the fresh ingredients and doing it all yourself.
Sonos is like buying a prepared meal and whacking it in the oven.
If you have the necessary skill, the former approach will yield better results.
But if like me you are pretty hopeless in the kitchen, a prepared meal is the way to get something edible.

mherger
2015-12-01, 09:02
> So a takeover of squeeze to widen the audience slightly may include more
> expenses than the server park . Some massive spurt of new development ,
> the best system can be better . Mass market would expect it to adjust
> tags rip CD's have a music download shop etc and all streaming services
> .
> so it's very uphill to leave the niche .

You're talking about niche and mass market in the same paragraph.

Ripping CDs, or even _downloading_ music is very much niche nowadays.
Let alone tagging files. Sound quality is even more of a niche (as long
as it is loud and has BASS, it sells anyway).

Mass market is online streaming. Full stop.

The personal flac/mp3 collection was a transitional thing. Like it or
not. I didn't believe our marketing guys a few years back, but am
clearly seeing it now. Take eg. the UE Megaboom. It costs as much as a
Squeezebox Boom did. But you have no idea how much better they sell...
and I doubt it gets to play a lot of personally curated music files.

From a technical point of view there seems to be another hint in this
direction: the first music services out there invested quite a bit in
copy protection etc. Nowadays imho they don't care about this anymore,
simply because there's little interest in copying music files when you
can stream them online for little to no money.

BTW: did you see all those jokes about Adele's latest album (not
available for streaming)? People coming up with "how to play a CD"
tutorials for all those poor digital natives who've grown up with
youtube and the like? :-) _They_ are mass market.

> But why not settle for being good in this niche off music entusiast with
> terabytes of local files , like me . It's a big world you can be
> sucessfull in niches too .

True.

> I'm a bit inbetween i listen to 90% my own files and expereince new
> stuff trough services and the ocasional science talk radio stuff . And
> sometimes actuall Radio .

"actual" radio as in online stream? Pretty much my behaviour. I still
have way too much music which is not available from streaming services.

--

Michael

Mnyb
2015-12-01, 09:08
This is the core of the issue. The Squeezebox ecosystem is complex because it is so flexible.
Sonos is simple to operate because it's a closed system and the users get only the facilities that Sonos dictates.
If the Squeezebox ecosystem were simplified so that it's as easy to use as Sonos, it would lose the very flexibility that makes it unique and so appealing to us.

Let me liken it to the process of preparing food.
The Squeezebox approach is akin to obtaining the fresh ingredients and doing it all yourself.
Sonos is like buying a prepared meal and whacking it in the oven.
If you have the necessary skill, the former approach will yield better results.
But if like me you are pretty hopeless in the kitchen, a prepared meal is the way to get something edible.

Oh yes but things can still be better . Setup trough iPad app is possible , but what the app tells you to do with cheerful pictures is to temporarily connect the iPad directly to the play 3's own wifi and then connect back to normal wifi again when finished . This is actually very similar to what the controller did for the receiver . Logitechs own app did not emulate that . Some third party setup for android exist .
But squeezebox Touch is actually better here as it setups directly from the device .

The players are quite simple in both systems :) but the many options in the server and dyi players are more enthusiasts I agree .

I think that good UI can make complexity more palatable . You register your sonos , I bet you actually also joins some online server too :) but everything is admined trough their app so the end user is often not aware .

In squeezebox world some apps can be added trough the player UI some also require the end user to visit mysb.com to setup things , and the server specific player settings we have . It's actually a feature but can confuse some I think .

So I do think a lot of small things can be much more straightforward without actually sacrifice functionality . But it is what it is when several different dev's and enthusiast commit thier stuff without to much coordination . It think it's charming actually .

poing
2015-12-03, 13:51
BTW: did you see all those jokes about Adele's latest album (not
available for streaming)? People coming up with "how to play a CD"
tutorials for all those poor digital natives who've grown up with
youtube and the like? :-) _They_ are mass market.

Here in Germany, physical media sales still make up more than 50% of the market. I think "personal ownership of music" (for lack of a better expression) is here to stay. Look at vinyl, for example. It's more than a quick fad like the 90s revival. Sales have been improving for far too long now.

I understand that streaming and such is big and will get bigger. The cloud is appealing not just to digital natives, but to people which aren't tech-saavy as well (it's easier to run an app than your own server). And the cloud has been all-the-rage in IT firms for so long, the vast majority of development for easy-to-use tools is targeting the cloud (even if the cost-benefit ratio is big).

But I strongly believe that people which want to own their music will remain more than a niche.

This is not gonna save Squeezebox, though. It will remain a niche because it's too complicated and technical. I actually believe the average consumer of multi-room audio is getting less tech-savvy. I don't necessarily believe the population as a whole is becoming less competent with regards to IT (even though one could debate it) but the thing is that the early adopters of multi-room audio where techies, whereas the majority adopters and laggards are non-techies).

2string1
2015-12-03, 14:05
How can PI be any better then my desktop computer?

DJanGo
2015-12-03, 14:22
How can PI be any better then my desktop computer?

dont use this word in a single line again.
the machine behind that 2in1 is a troll

No problem... I'll go away... So if I'm not mistaken you have a $2000 music server. WOW... What do you have plugged into it a 5 dollar cable? I don't think spending $125 is a big deal on a digital cable...Why don't you take a walk. No need to reply if you have nothing nice to say...

Greg Erskine
2015-12-03, 14:42
How can PI be any better then my desktop computer?

It is cheaper, so that makes it better. :cool:

DJanGo
2015-12-03, 14:48
It is cheaper, so that makes it better. :cool:
its better cause its linux
its better cause it needs more power from your brain
its better cause of your Desktop Computer is to old
its better cause its better
its better cause its better
its better cause its even better than better
its just better cause i wrote that

Julf
2015-12-04, 03:19
How can PI be any better then my desktop computer?

- it is smaller
- it uses less power
- it is always on
- it doesn't run a legacy closed desktop office operating system

Mnyb
2015-12-04, 03:21
How can PI be any better then my desktop computer?

If you want to string around multiple players around your house or have a really small server .

Big clunky desktops are big and noisy and energy consuming so using one as player, nah.

Diffrent is the word not better .

IF you got a narrow fixation on audio performance they do the "same" here the word is equal , but in small energy efficient package .
PI's can be built together with multiple kinds of dacs or external spdiff or USB dacs or digital ouput boards endless possibilities .
Just as you can equip a desktop with USB dacs different soundcards etc .

So the PI can act as a hardware squeezebox or/and as a tiny server you dump in the closet .

DJanGo
2015-12-04, 03:46
- it is smaller
- it uses less power
- it is always on
- it doesn't run a legacy closed desktop office operating system
- you can add a whole bunch of expensive cables to it
- you get more attractive Boys/woman into your cave
- if you in house arrest nobody can find it and get it away from you
- you never ever would buy such cheap DIY Stuff