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philippe_44
2015-09-27, 01:14
ok, usual rant: I'm really wondering if/why Logitech should not reconsider entering this market again now. Sonos seems to be doing very well and other have entered (Bose, Samsung, Denon ...). More precisely, I feel Slimdevices have been too early on that market, but now seems to be the right time for 2 reasons

- Market awareness
- Technology

On awareness, now there is a special area in most of the retail stores dedicated to multiroom audio system. That was not the case before and I can remember when Slimdevices/Logitech was the only game in town, nobody in retails stores new where to display these and vendors had no idea how to promote them. They where roating between audio and computer spaces. Consumer awarness is a chicken and egg problem, but that is solved now.

On technology, the need for a dedicated PC was big problem for many consumers. It was a combination of non always-on computer and also very crashy Windows that made the system poorly available. Online version was interesting but that was not the years of streaming and high speed internet access was not broadly available. Now thing have changed thanks to the progress in small computers (ARM-based), gigantic improvment in WiFi space (11b speed together with devices interop was a real problem), availability of high speed internet and widespread use of smartphones (remote control was a problem and the duet controller was good but probably not good enough).

So now, you can have a cheap, dedicated, power-efficient micro computer that runs LMS and use smartphones. Consumer like the space and internet speed is here. If people do not like the web-based GUI, a dedicated desktop app can easily be developped, like Sonos and still use LMS as it is.

I'm a Sonos user as well, but the flexibility of LMS is really unsurpassed. Come-on Logitech, you can do great in consumer space devices and satisfy the (reasonnable) audiophile as well :)

CommanderROR
2015-09-27, 02:42
Well, there is no question that Logitech could return to this market, and I also think they should. However, since big names like Sonos, Denon, Yamaha, even Google...have already set up shop, it would probably be extremely hard of Logitech to actually achieve any market penetration.

I think the only way would be to go low-cost, and that's probably not in line with Logitech marketing goals.

If I had to choose, I'd offer a range of simple devices, much like what I've currently built with LMS/Squeezelite and the RaspberryPi and Hifiberry boards. A standalone solution with built-in speakers would be one of the offerings of course, but I'd mainly focus on building three devices:

1) Squeezebox-DAC: A small aluminium cube, with built-in Ethernet, Wifi, a DAC Chip and analogue output. Connect this to active speakers
2) Squeezebox-Digi: A small aluminium cube, with built-in Ethernet, Wifi, and Spdif Optical and electric outputs. Connect this to external DAC or AVR
3) Squeezebox-Amp: A small aluminium cube, with buil-in Ethernet, Wifi and a small Class-D amp, that can directly drive a pair of passive speakers.

If you make this with mostly off-the-shelf components, then you could have a really budget-friendly set that just might make it in this competitive market...
;)

Of course, you'd still need the Server, but that's actually the most simple of the bunch. A tiny little system with almost no power consumption, like my Odroid U3, can easily handly any and every requirement a LMS system needs. If you use something similar, and maybe add Gigabit Ethernet and the option to put in a SATA harddrive, then you've pretty much got it covered.

Jeff07971
2015-09-27, 03:35
Well, there is no question that Logitech could return to this market, and I also think they should. However, since big names like Sonos, Denon, Yamaha, even Google...have already set up shop, it would probably be extremely hard of Logitech to actually achieve any market penetration.

I think the only way would be to go low-cost, and that's probably not in line with Logitech marketing goals.

If I had to choose, I'd offer a range of simple devices, much like what I've currently built with LMS/Squeezelite and the RaspberryPi and Hifiberry boards. A standalone solution with built-in speakers would be one of the offerings of course, but I'd mainly focus on building three devices:

1) Squeezebox-DAC: A small aluminium cube, with built-in Ethernet, Wifi, a DAC Chip and analogue output. Connect this to active speakers
2) Squeezebox-Digi: A small aluminium cube, with built-in Ethernet, Wifi, and Spdif Optical and electric outputs. Connect this to external DAC or AVR
3) Squeezebox-Amp: A small aluminium cube, with buil-in Ethernet, Wifi and a small Class-D amp, that can directly drive a pair of passive speakers.

If you make this with mostly off-the-shelf components, then you could have a really budget-friendly set that just might make it in this competitive market...
;)

Of course, you'd still need the Server, but that's actually the most simple of the bunch. A tiny little system with almost no power consumption, like my Odroid U3, can easily handly any and every requirement a LMS system needs. If you use something similar, and maybe add Gigabit Ethernet and the option to put in a SATA harddrive, then you've pretty much got it covered.

Agreed on all points but the only one that dosent exist nearly off the shelf is 3) Squeezebox-Amp (this is becoming my chosen route and have built serveral now) 1 and 2 are covered by the receiver and/or duet.
As for server Pogoplug 2 has all these features except gig ethernet (again I have used 3 of these for friends)



Jeff

CommanderROR
2015-09-27, 04:53
Well, they all exist "off the shelf" right now of course, but not made by Logitech, at least any more...

Jeff07971
2015-09-27, 07:24
Sorry meant Tonidoplug2

wortgefecht
2015-09-27, 07:42
Sorry meant Tonidoplug2

Hah, that's a nice device. Thanks for the tip!

poing
2015-09-27, 10:55
Usual answer: I also think Logitech somewhat misjudged the market. But, who cares? The system is open-source. I don't need Logitech hardware.

In fact, I don't own a single Logitech device. The server runs just fine on my NAS. My Hifiberries were about a €100 each and deliver transparent sound quality. While not quite as versatile and audiophile, my setup is nicely complemented by software players running on my mobile devices. E.g., SB Player on my Android phone is perfect for listening on headphones in bed. And controller apps such as Orange Squeeze and iPeng far surpass anything Logitech offers IMO.

philippe_44
2015-09-27, 11:22
Usual answer: I also think Logitech somewhat misjudged the market. But, who cares? The system is open-source. I don't need Logitech hardware.

In fact, I don't own a single Logitech device. The server runs just fine on my NAS. My Hifiberries were about a 100 each and deliver transparent sound quality. While not quite as versatile and audiophile, my setup is nicely complemented by software players running on my mobile devices. E.g., SB Player on my Android phone is perfect for listening on headphones in bed. And controller apps such as Orange Squeeze and iPeng far surpass anything Logitech offers IMO.

I agree but I think that what most of what we do here does not work for consumers. I like LMS because of these 2 faces: it is possible to tinker with it but it could now be really mainstream with pre-made devices. I think this is unfortunate that Logitech, with their presence on that market does not bring it back through such a set of speakers, 'radios' and boxes (receiver+dac).

castalla
2015-09-27, 12:29
I agree but I think that what most of what we do here does not work for consumers. I like LMS because of these 2 faces: it is possible to tinker with it but it could now be really mainstream with pre-made devices. I think this is unfortunate that Logitech, with their presence on that market does not bring it back through such a set of speakers, 'radios' and boxes (receiver+dac).


They could always sell out to Sonos and use your sq2upnp solution!

philippe_44
2015-09-27, 12:47
They could always sell out to Sonos and use your sq2upnp solution!

:) I wish I could do audio sync, but I'm still not there

Mnyb
2015-09-27, 20:45
I agree but I think that what most of what we do here does not work for consumers. I like LMS because of these 2 faces: it is possible to tinker with it but it could now be really mainstream with pre-made devices. I think this is unfortunate that Logitech, with their presence on that market does not bring it back through such a set of speakers, 'radios' and boxes (receiver+dac).

And it's very hard to support subscription services on open source there are notable,exceptions like triodes Spotify plugin , but in general,these services needs a corporate partner to settle the legal stuff before a single line of code gets written .

You can have external,service providers like ickstream ,tune in etc . But someday a service demands endpoint decryption directly on the player itself .

poing
2015-09-28, 00:11
I agree but I think that what most of what we do here does not work for consumers..
I'm a consumer.

Okay, I'm not your typical "there's gotta be an app for that" type of consumer. But if I was, I would probably be just as happy with some of the less advanced multi-room audio systems out there.

wortgefecht
2015-09-28, 09:21
I'm a consumer.

Okay, I'm not your typical "there's gotta be an app for that" type of consumer. But if I was, I would probably be just as happy with some of the less advanced multi-room audio systems out there.
Maybe tomorrow Google will reveal such a cheap, consumer friendly system: Chromecast Audio http://9to5google.com/2015/09/18/exclusive-chromecast-audio-codenamed-hendrix-is-a-separate-piece-of-hardware-made-to-wifi-enable-speakers/

I am looking forward to the event tomorrow.

poing
2015-09-28, 12:04
I am looking forward to the event tomorrow.
Sure, I am, too. But again, I think the intersection between the squeezebox ecosystem and other multi-room audio ecosystems isn't that big.

I want replaygain, gapless playback, cue sheets, support for uncommon audio files such as 24/96 flac, multi-value tag support, custom sort options based on certain tags etc. But the median consumer doesn't even know what those things are ;)

garym
2015-09-28, 14:37
Sure, I am, too. But again, I think the intersection between the squeezebox ecosystem and other multi-room audio ecosystems isn't that big.

I want replaygain, gapless playback, cue sheets, support for uncommon audio files such as 24/96 flac, multi-value tag support, custom sort options based on certain tags etc. But the median consumer doesn't even know what those things are ;)

I agree. Strangely enough, the older squeezeboxes and LMS are still cutting edge in this space. Many of the items you want noted above are the same things I want/need. And by the way, SONOS, which is otherwise not a bad choice for multiroom streaming (synched or not) either doesn't have or doesn't implement well many of these items. Not to mention the overall 65k (or less) limitation non tracks which makes it problematic for me.