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Corelli45
2015-07-08, 11:55
I love my Squeezebox Touch and am indebted to the kind folks on this forum who have helped me on my journey. There have been some fantastic intitiatives, including EDO and Spotify/ Qobuz apps. But lately I've become concerned that things have begun to dwindle. Triode and Swenson appear to have upped sticks and though a valiant few have tried to hold the baton, I feel things have begun to slow down. I was hopeful when Jack of All appeared to moot a new software and device but this also seems to have fallen by the wayside. Do people believe that Squeezebox will live on or is it time to move on to new streaming pastures?Is it worth hanging on?I'm not Sonos fan( I have heard it)but there appear to be other notable and exciting ventures including Bluesound, Cambridge Audio and Naim. Should I stick with it?

Fizbin
2015-07-08, 15:12
I think there's a thread just like this. Personally, the only thing that will replace my Squeezebox Touch, is a better Squeezebox Touch. Obviously Logitech will never market another one but I'm hopeful a company like Oppo will.

garym
2015-07-08, 15:23
It's not really the hardware that is an issue. The problem with most of the "replacements" being marketed, including the ones you mention, is that they rely on DLNP/UpNp streaming methods which is mostly crap (and a giant, giant step backwards for anyone used to LMS and squeezeboxes). But I wouldn't despair. LMS 7.9 is new and improved and doing well, lots of things can emulate a Squeezebox hardware player (some "computer" micro or otherwise running squeezelite), etc.

p.s. I have a SONOS I bought last year just to see how it works. It's a nice enough piece of kit, but it in no way replaces the functionality of my squeezebox/LMS ecosystem.

18358

castalla
2015-07-08, 15:33
p.s. I have a SONOS I bought last year just to see how it works. It's a nice enough piece of kit, but it in no way replaces the functionality of my squeezebox/LMS ecosystem.



Install the sq2upnp bridge plugin and your sonos becomes a squeezelite player

garym
2015-07-08, 15:41
Install the sq2upnp bridge plugin and your sonos becomes a squeezelite player

Yeah, I've seen that. But for the moment, in addition to all my deployed in-use stuff, I have lots of spares (3 new in box TOUCHes, 3 new in box RADIOS, a lightly used Boom, and a lightly used SB3).

FredFredrickson
2015-07-13, 13:33
I worry about the day one of my squeezeboxen break or Logitech fails to update for Rhapsody changes.

I love these things. I cannot imagine why they killed off this brand right when network audio is becoming mainstream.

vanye
2015-07-13, 14:22
All you need is a Rasperry and Picore or Max2Play. Or a barebone and Daphile. Or ...

Lots of good stuff out there. I think Logitech did everyone a favour when they discontinued the Touch.

quadronado
2015-07-13, 23:29
All you need is a Rasperry and Picore or Max2Play. Or a barebone and Daphile. Or ...

This may work if you don't want to use Rhapsody. Or Spotify on multiple devices at the same time. Or use your devices without a Smartphone/Tablet or a Computer. Or ...

Giza2020
2015-07-14, 00:26
I have Spotify on multiple devices (sync'd with duet, boom, and 2x rpI

also you can pick up a logitech reviever remote if you want a dedicated remote.

FredFredrickson
2015-07-14, 06:17
This may work if you don't want to use Rhapsody. Or Spotify on multiple devices at the same time. Or use your devices without a Smartphone/Tablet or a Computer. Or ...

I use rhapsody and pandora a lot, which is why the aftermarket/software solutions don't do it for me.

If mysqueezebox.com goes down or if my boxes break, I might have to go sonos (even though they're retardedly expensive). Is there anybody else in the market?

Dogberry2
2015-07-14, 07:59
I use rhapsody and pandora a lot, which is why the aftermarket/software solutions don't do it for me.

If mysqueezebox.com goes down or if my boxes break, I might have to go sonos (even though they're retardedly expensive). Is there anybody else in the market?
Yeah, I use Pandora and SiriusXM a lot. When mysqueezebox.com get shut down, I'm screwed.

garym
2015-07-14, 08:12
Yeah, I use Pandora and SiriusXM a lot. When mysqueezebox.com get shut down, I'm screwed.

Unless ickstream manages to add access to Pandora and SiriusXM, which I hope they can (My wife is a major SiriusXM user at home because of the extra public radio channels).

quadronado
2015-07-14, 08:56
I have Spotify on multiple devices (sync'd with duet, boom, and 2x rpI
Yes, but as far as I remember you can't use it on different RPi devices with different Spotify streams (without syncing).


also you can pick up a logitech reviever remote if you want a dedicated remote.
I don't like any remotes, neither smartphones nor receiver remote. Before I'd buy a used receiver remote I'd buy I used SB-Radio or SB-Touch.

garym
2015-07-14, 08:59
Yes, but as far as I remember you can't use it on different RPi devices with different Spotify streams (without syncing).

Correct. With the triode 3rd party Spotify plugin, one can play a single stream to multiple synched devices. But one can't simultaneously stream one spotify song to one player and a different spotify song to another player (as one can do with the official logitech spotify app that only works for Touch or Radio).

Giza2020
2015-07-14, 11:05
Fair enough.. makes sense

vanye
2015-07-14, 11:41
This may work if you don't want to use Rhapsody. Or Spotify on multiple devices at the same time. Or use your devices without a Smartphone/Tablet or a Computer. Or ...

Not really sure about this, but ickstream might support Rhapsody.

quadronado
2015-07-14, 23:02
Not really sure about this, but ickstream might support Rhapsody.
And I'm sure that ickstream doesn't support Rhapsody and never will support it.

ashleyw
2015-07-19, 02:32
what are peoples thoughts about Roonlabs running on the rpi2 with HifiBerry (or iqaudio) DAC in the form of Roonspeakers?
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/raspberry-pi-support/1129/2

It's vapourware right now but could potentially be a neat alternative, but Spotify support isn't there currently AFAIK.

The whole UI of something like SqueezeCommander is well past its sell by date, and the LMS architecture itself has strengths but also weaknesses in the forms of poor sync (compared to Sonos).

Anyone have any thoughts on https://gramofon.com/ and the AllPlay architecture - certainly for Spotify it has neat integration.

Sadly, I too can't see how long term the LMS architecture can flourish without the backing of the people who made it happen in the first place.

epoch1970
2015-07-19, 04:42
Raspberry Pi has saved the bacon of LMS. Look back a few years and think how many people were saying that the server was the problem (and it was, admittedly.)

There are now 2 mainstream protocols for home audio streaming, Airplay and upnp. Until these make some progress (or we all evaporate into the cloud), LMS with old hardware players is still a superior system. And LMS can bridge to new hardware/services.

I don't count on boutiques to improve on upnp or airplay. I don't need cloud lock-in on my property. I don't believe an SB hardware player will ever happen again.
We are in a stall and to me the end seems further than nearer. I think we have to commend the way Logi still sticks to its "customers" (after a string of errors or miscalculations of dire consequences.)

garym
2015-07-19, 05:57
LMS architecture itself has strengths but also weaknesses in the forms of poor sync (compared to Sonos).


Sonos and LMS/Squeezeboxes both have rock solid sync. I sync several players together (and they are sometimes in the same room). I've never heard any echo or sync problems in my use of SBs. If you're having Sync issues, I suspect that is fixable as it must be something in your local setup????

ashleyw
2015-07-19, 20:20
Sonos and LMS/Squeezeboxes both have rock solid sync. I sync several players together (and they are sometimes in the same room). I've never heard any echo or sync problems in my use of SBs. If you're having Sync issues, I suspect that is fixable as it must be something in your local setup????

afraid in my world (which only consists of RPI2s and hifiberry DACs) - there are several issues with sync;
- Adding a player to a sync group while a track is playing results in a stutter on all players.
- sync via wifi on an RPI2 is too unstable which forces wired connection.
- sync is via skips where as on sonos sync is via adjusting the audio clock rate so players get in pefect sync quickly without noticable sync jumps.
- no native Spotify integration (via say Spotify connect) which forces the use of Triode's plugin - which means the Spotify view of the world is through an LMS app - which is feature poor compared to the native android Spotfy client for example. For example Spotify moods can only be played on LMS architecture by subscribing to a playlist rather and then selecting the playlist form the LMS app.
- no native support for multiple Spotify accounts (eg family subscriptions) - which means there has to be multiple LMS servers with clients connected to specific servers.

All of these types of things to me means that LMS needs an overhaul.

Even though I accept that real squeezebox hardware maybe better, the fact it is no longer made (or ever likely to be), means its future is entirely dependent on these types of issues being addressed - which is kind of hard on any open hardware - particularly open hardware solutions like the rpi+dac without any commercial drive.

I just can't see how any streaming service which is heavily tied into DRM can be viable longterm on an open platform like the RPI as it is entirely dependent on the official API support from the service providers.
Even now we can't even get Netflix on an RPI (without hacks like Playon) as there is no official android port for the RPI - which would require a locked bootloader anyway which isn't going to happen on the rpi.

I love the suqeezebox eco-system but it still needs work and without official tie ins from the likes of Spotify/Tidal/Apple/Youtube etc, its use cases will be limited and users will continue to switch to other solutions (which to be fair isn't going to be a commercial concern for Logitech anyway as they have other speaker products which are much easier to support and pushes the sync/streaming responsibility to other technology devices).

garym
2015-07-20, 04:02
afraid in my world (which only consists of RPI2s and hifiberry DACs) - there are several issues with sync;
- Adding a player to a sync group while a track is playing results in a stutter on all players.
- sync via wifi on an RPI2 is too unstable which forces wired connection.
- sync is via skips where as on sonos sync is via adjusting the audio clock rate so players get in pefect sync quickly without noticable sync jumps.
-

fair enough. I was thinking of sync and official logitech hardware devices (where sync is rock solid). And of course in comparing to SONOS, one can only consider official hardware, as SONOS has no equivalent of alternative players (Sonos users have long asked for an "app" that would allow them to play SONOS streams on their computers (i.e., something like Squeezelite), and to date there's been no action on this by Sonos, other than pushback on the idea. Of course they make money from HARDWARE, so it makes sense that they do not want to see anything like the Squeezelite/Rpi combo taking hold....)

Also, Sonos users complain a lot about the Sonos/Spotify interface that has much less function than official Spotify interfaces.

I do agree that the weak link for LMS and squeezebox players going forward is likely to be access to streaming services. As changes are made, we'll likely be left with only the things one can get via ickstream. Personally, my major concern is SiriusXM, as my wife is a major user of the public radio stations there. For my own streaming, I'll be happy as long as I have at least one service for music. I currrently use Triode's Spotify plugin, but could be happy with Tidal or any other reasonable service. Music streaming for me is mostly about trying out things to decide to purchase or occassional playing of one-off things that I don't want to own.

JJZolx
2015-07-20, 12:46
afraid in my world (which only consists of RPI2s and hifiberry DACs) - there are several issues with sync;
- Adding a player to a sync group while a track is playing results in a stutter on all players.

It does that when you add any player. Always has. Unless you're talking about continuous stuttering.


- sync via wifi on an RPI2 is too unstable which forces wired connection.

Unstable, how? Unable to maintain sync, or do you get dropouts? If it's dropouts, then it's a problem with your wireless network, not whatever you're using as a player.


- sync is via skips where as on sonos sync is via adjusting the audio clock rate so players get in pefect sync quickly without noticable sync jumps.

Once in sync, do you notice these skips? I never have. If you are, it would suggest something wrong with the clocks.

ashleyw
2015-07-20, 17:28
It does that when you add any player. Always has. Unless you're talking about continuous stuttering.

Unstable, how? Unable to maintain sync, or do you get dropouts? If it's dropouts, then it's a problem with your wireless network, not whatever you're using as a player.

Once in sync, do you notice these skips? I never have. If you are, it would suggest something wrong with the clocks.

I'm not talking about continuous stuttering - only when a player is added. Sonos and other products don't do this.
problem is maintaining sync over wifi not drop outs - think some of this is related to the way libspotify which Triode uses buffers the data, but regardless, it renders wifi sync'd players unreliable.

When things are in sync they occasional drift and then come back together - there is no direct control over the oscillator on the rpi so there will always be some drift. the drift isn't normally noticable as corrections are made between tracks.

regardless of the underlying issues, the current squeezebox architecture in the form of the RPI with i2S DAC has too many quirks for widespread use when multi zone audio, WAF and access to a range of streaming services is a requirement.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2015-07-21, 10:16
I think there's a thread just like this. Personally, the only thing that will replace my Squeezebox Touch, is a better Squeezebox Touch. Obviously Logitech will never market another one but I'm hopeful a company like Oppo will.

Maybe an Auralic Mini?

banned for life
2015-07-21, 11:01
Patient: It stutters when I do that
Doctor: Then don't do that

b4l

philippe_44
2015-07-21, 22:52
When things are in sync they occasional drift and then come back together - there is no direct control over the oscillator on the rpi so there will always be some drift. the drift isn't normally noticable as corrections are made between tracks.
.
Sync is maintained while playing a track, unless disabled. LMS evaluates network round trip constantly as well as gathering the local player clock and requires players to feedback ms accuracy play time compared to their local clock. When gap is found, LMS will ask player to pause or skip for a few ms

Pascal Hibon
2015-07-22, 00:10
Sync is maintained while playing a track, unless disabled. LMS evaluates network round trip constantly as well as gathering the local player clock and requires players to feedback ms accuracy play time compared to their local clock. When gap is found, LMS will ask player to pause or skip for a few ms

I believe the RPI does not have a hardware clock on-board. The accuracy of its clock is therefore maintained by the software (OS ?).
That would explain why RPI's don't sync very well.
In the past I have used Wandboards (with Fedora) in sync and they did very well. Never tried it with SOA but that would be an interesting test.

epoch1970
2015-07-22, 06:18
It is futile to expect a non-real time software player running on a non-real time OS to sync perfectly. Regardless of LMS sync protocol or local clock accuracy.
If your linux machine decides to launch garbage collection/swap what happens to audio processing?
AFAIK Touch used (at least) a custom audio stack. And its software environment was completely under control.

It might be possible to reach similar results with a Pi. Anyone ready to produce the same kind of engineering effort Slim/Logi did in their time? I would say not. Esp. when the reward is unclear.

Julf
2015-07-22, 12:54
I believe the RPI does not have a hardware clock on-board. The accuracy of its clock is therefore maintained by the software (OS ?).

Pretty much every processor has a hardware clock in the sense of "clock oscillator". From the point of view of accuracy, it doesn't matter if it is dedicate3d hardware or the CPU ("software") that counts milliseconds.

Julf
2015-07-22, 12:56
If your linux machine decides to launch garbage collection/swap what happens to audio processing?

Programming language runtime environments do garbage collection, not the OS (there is no garbage collection in C, for example), and if your system swaps, you don't have enough RAM and have way more serious issues than lack of synchronization.

epoch1970
2015-07-22, 13:45
Programming language runtime environments do garbage collection, not the OS (there is no garbage collection in C, for example), and if your system swaps, you don't have enough RAM and have way more serious issues than lack of synchronization.

Well I was trying to make a not too nerdy reference to the system tunables (https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysctl/vm.txt) in linux like vm.swappiness and vm.dirty*
Second, don't look now but there is a chance your own systems are using nearly 100% of available RAM (applications + cache), plus a bit of swap.

philippe_44
2015-07-22, 15:03
Pretty much every processor has a hardware clock in the sense of "clock oscillator". From the point of view of accuracy, it doesn't matter if it is dedicate3d hardware or the CPU ("software") that counts milliseconds.

Yep, this is how it works. At regular occasion (at least every 5 sec if I remember) LMS sends a request for a 'local counter'. The request contain a LMS stamp (this is a local time in ms for LMS when the packet was sent) and the response shall include this stamp and a 'time counter' of the local player, in ms. LMS averages the network turnaround time, computes drifts across various 'local counter' packets and sends a request to the player to skip or pause a few ms to adjust if needed.

What the local player needs to do well is keep a constant relation between this local counter and the gap between the DAC fifo and actual output and do local correction in case fifo cannot be fed in time due to local high load

With that, no need to network time synchronization, nor RealTimeClock

Julf
2015-07-23, 13:03
Second, don't look now but there is a chance your own systems are using nearly 100% of available RAM (applications + cache), plus a bit of swap.

I do tend to look fairly often, and with modern hardware, it is really hard to get a system to actually swap. Most of my systems don't have any swap configured at all.

pablolie
2015-07-24, 07:12
i would feel better if the last official release of SBS had eliminated any dependency on mysqueezebox.com, too.

i packed my SBS environment into an Ubuntu+SBS .ova file i can fire up with Vmware Player anytime, anywhere. that considerably reduces my worries about the future environment. it'll run for a while.

As to the devices, i have a ton of them, and not a single one has failed.

pippin
2015-07-24, 08:33
LMS 7.9 does that if you start it with the nomysb option

w3wilkes
2015-07-25, 07:22
Follow up for the SB devices firmware to eliminate the MySB.com dependency during setup would be a nice touch too.

jimmypowder
2015-07-26, 06:32
Yep ,its close to the end:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQyCkwAGoVChMIxoC9j_T4xgIVDBo-Ch00lAJN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJSU IQgEVDM4&ei=PuG0VcbpC4y0-AG0qIroBA&usg=AFQjCNEgtT9eoi3baHHeH5cUfmxNYTTtEQ&sig2=LkWddMR1Czn5fHZgGYN3Dg&bvm=bv.98717601,d.cWw

Fizbin
2015-07-26, 21:03
Or you could say the Touch continues to sound good playing The End.

jimmypowder
2015-07-27, 13:48
Or you could say the Touch continues to sound good playing The End.

It does,just not as good as some of the other streamers that have been introduced over the last several years.

volpone
2015-07-28, 02:14
what are peoples thoughts about Roonlabs running on the rpi2 with HifiBerry (or iqaudio) DAC in the form of Roonspeakers?
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/raspberry-pi-support/1129/2

It's vapourware right now but could potentially be a neat alternative, but Spotify support isn't there currently AFAIK.

The whole UI of something like SqueezeCommander is well past its sell by date, and the LMS architecture itself has strengths but also weaknesses in the forms of poor sync (compared to Sonos).

Hi ashleyw,
I've quite the same questions except sync is not a big isssue for me (i'm not using it a lot).
I've tried to get user feedback or opinions about Roon on this forum but no joy, see: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104044-Roon-a-SqueezeBox-ecosystem-alternative

About Roonlabs i agree with their opinions on UpNP architecture, see: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-wrong-with-upnp/2101/5
Interested in discussion about that and the potential "to be released" RoonSpeakers protocol alternative.

Regards
Volpone

Julf
2015-07-28, 04:16
It does,just not as good as some of the other streamers that have been introduced over the last several years.

There are differences in the built-in DACs of various streamers that have an impact on the sound (but still way less than different speakers or different room placement), but if you are using an external DAC, the sound quality is determined by the DAC, not the streamer.

jimmypowder
2015-07-28, 06:39
There are differences in the built-in DACs of various streamers that have an impact on the sound (but still way less than different speakers or different room placement), but if you are using an external DAC, the sound quality is determined by the DAC, not the streamer.

So you are saying the streamer has ZERO impact on sound quality? If thats the case then we should all just buy the cheapest streamer we can buy for audio quality.

I can tell you I used the digital out of the Transporter and compared it to the Auralic Aries digital out to the same dac (coax on both) and there was a significant difference in audio quality
in favor the the Aries.

Julf
2015-07-28, 08:53
So you are saying the streamer has ZERO impact on sound quality?

Yes. Please explain to me what, in the digital part of a streamer, could actually make an impact on sound quality.


If thats the case then we should all just buy the cheapest streamer we can buy for audio quality.

Exactly.


I can tell you I used the digital out of the Transporter and compared it to the Auralic Aries digital out to the same dac (coax on both) and there was a significant difference in audio quality
in favor the the Aries.

This discussion should probably move to the audiophile subforum. I assume your listening was under sighted conditions. How did you ensure levels were matched?

jimmypowder
2015-07-28, 13:15
Yes. Please explain to me what, in the digital part of a streamer, could actually make an impact on sound quality.



Exactly.



This discussion should probably move to the audiophile subforum. I assume your listening was under sighted conditions. How did you ensure levels were matched?

Use decibel meter . It was very clear that the Transporter was not as dynamic had less resolution than the Aries. Same files,volume set with meter ,coax out.
Squeezebox Touch was the same
.Not as good.

Maybe power supply has made a difference too !! Sweet!

Femto clocks baby,femto clocks!

Julf
2015-07-29, 00:59
Use decibel meter . It was very clear that the Transporter was not as dynamic had less resolution than the Aries. Same files,volume set with meter ,coax out.
Squeezebox Touch was the same
.Not as good.

So, just to confirm, this was sighted listening, not double-blind?


Femto clocks baby,femto clocks!

Using async USB?

jimmypowder
2015-07-29, 11:07
So, just to confirm, this was sighted listening, not double-blind?



Using async USB?

Quintuple blind with a finger up my ass .

Coax not usb. Didnt see a thing but I know the Touch and Transporter dont sound as good feeding the same dac.
It took literally seconds to tell!!

vanye
2015-07-29, 11:20
This discussion should probably move to the audiophile subforum.
I second the notion.

Wombat
2015-07-29, 11:21
Quintuple blind with a finger up my ass .

Most likely it sounded better the deeper you pushed?
Audiophile daydreaming surely benefits of this.

Mnyb
2015-07-29, 11:22
If there is a real volume difference then the information is not the same .

Check the volume on each player before comparing and check how they use replay gain tags .
LMS has setting for that if the flac file has an RG tag and you use this feature , the result is in most cases are lower volume .

Yes streaming the same thing from any reasonably put together source to a ditto DAC should sound the same , it's actually how these things are designed to work and it works .
If you for some odd very rare system dependent reason have a real ground plane problem try toslink .

jimmypowder
2015-07-29, 12:02
Most likely it sounded better the deeper you pushed?
Audiophile daydreaming surely benefits of this.

It did .

jimmypowder
2015-07-29, 14:20
I second the notion.

I third the notion!

jimmypowder
2015-07-31, 15:19
This is the end, my only friend .