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pippin
2015-05-27, 09:55
Now that Rhapsody is gone... Michael, Felix, how do we have to bribe you to put AAC back into the ip3k players' firmwares? Or are there other reasons it can't be supported? I understand that it has been in there in the past, right?

bpa
2015-05-27, 10:27
Now that Rhapsody is gone... Michael, Felix, how do we have to bribe you to put AAC back into the ip3k players' firmwares? Or are there other reasons it can't be supported? I understand that it has been in there in the past, right?

I don't remember AAC ever been in the IP3K release. The explanation used to be not enough memory - to include AAC would mean removing OGG/Vorbis or possibly WMA.

pippin
2015-05-27, 10:34
Well, these days replacing WMA by AAC would probably mean you can access more, not fewer radio stations, don't you think so? WMA is really in decline.

bpa
2015-05-27, 10:47
Well, these days replacing WMA by AAC would probably mean you can access more, not fewer radio stations, don't you think so? WMA is really in decline.

The last time this was asked - a lot of people asked for Ogg to be thrown out but there were a lot of users who said they needed Ogg. I think there are fewer Ogg stations than WMA stations so the chances of a change happening are slim.

pippin
2015-05-27, 10:57
Well, isn't the question which codecs stations use _exclusively_? If you use WMA exclusively, these days, it means you are not playable on anything Apple which is a bit of a gap...
Since most stations stream in more than one format, how many are left with WMA exclusively?
The BBC, for one, is no longer an argument...

bpa
2015-05-27, 11:32
Well, isn't the question which codecs stations use _exclusively_? If you use WMA exclusively, these days, it means you are not playable on anything Apple which is a bit of a gap...
Since most stations stream in more than one format, how many are left with WMA exclusively?
The BBC, for one, is no longer an argument...

I think AAC is the better choice but before doing more discussion on this, I think getting an answer from Michael, Felix etc. is there any chance of a change in IP3K. I doubt it as development tools, libraries and test facilities are probably archived.

That said, I think if effort was to be put into a new codec, it should be chunked protocols such as HLS natively on Touch and Radio and in LMS would be better for the near future.

Your BBC comment also brought to mind that this issue was discussed previous to AAC, then it was RealAudio (for BBC) was wanted.

Atlantic
2015-05-27, 11:57
The last time this was asked - a lot of people asked for Ogg to be thrown out but there were a lot of users who said they needed Ogg. I think there are fewer Ogg stations than WMA stations so the chances of a change happening are slim.

May I raise my hand to be counted as an Ogg depender?

Quite a lot of our own recordings are coded in Ogg. (These days we would record in FLAC, but these recordings were made a while ago.) We need to be able to continue playing these through our SBRs dotted around the place.

The fact that SQ boxes 'automatically' load more recent firmware worries me a little, because if the firmware was changed, I'm not sure how we could prevent it loading itself. (Like the idea of BBC back on the SBR again, though; I've yet to tackle the workaround that's been posted on another thread.)

Please count us (and those like us) in on Ogg.

regards, Atlantic

pippin
2015-05-27, 12:07
I think AAC is the better choice but before doing more discussion on this, I think getting an answer from Michael, Felix etc. is there any chance of a change in IP3K. I doubt it as development tools, libraries and test facilities are probably archived.

Agreed. I just wanted to raise the topic just to make sure the only reason nothing happens is because nobody makes a start...



That said, I think if effort was to be put into a new codec, it should be chunked protocols such as HLS natively on Touch and Radio and in LMS would be better for the near future.

But that's a whole different story. I'd be all for that as well. Plus SSL support in LMS which will also be needed over the longer term.


May I raise my hand to be counted as an Ogg depender?

Nobody planned to remove ogg so far ;) Ogg might be less abundant but it's not dying like WMA. And I'm still not sure just how much resources are freed up by removing Rhapsody.



Quite a lot of our own recordings are coded in Ogg.
This is not about own recordings. Your own stuff can always be transcoded by LMS, especially with an open source codec like ogg.
What this is about is primarily radio plus maybe some online services (WiMP might remove mp3 streams one day, for example, they do already offer superior quality through AAC).
With these there are two issues:
1) LMS has problems transcoding (remote) AAC streams on the fly so this doesn't always work
2) If you want to listen to radio without LMS running you can't transcode

A lot of radio stations are switching to AAC these days because it's well supported on modern devices and gives the best quality at limited bandwidths. Plus, it's cheap for the station. These radio stations currently can't be played on ip3k players without LMS at all. Not even sure if all can be played _with_ LMS.

Mnyb
2015-05-27, 12:28
Was it actually the previous rhapsody changes the made Logitech make room for it by removing AAC ? I vaguely remember an encryption issue being the root cause .

Has anything else at all being added or changed in ip3k firmware since ? its very dead , can it be so simple as just change a version or date to some old firmware and re-release :)

mherger
2015-05-27, 21:11
> Now that Rhapsody is gone... Michael, Felix, how do we have to bribe you
> to put AAC back into the ip3k players' firmwares? Or are there other
> reasons it can't be supported? I understand that it has been in there in
> the past, right?

I don't think so. But when it comes to ip3k firmware, I'm the wrong
person anyway. No bribe can fix that :-). But it's a thought which had
crossed my mind, too. (no, not the bribe!)

--

Michael

philippe_44
2015-05-27, 23:12
Is there still somebody releasing firmwares ?

mherger
2015-05-28, 00:31
> Is there still somebody releasing firmwares ?

I doubt there will ever be firmware updates for the ip3k players again.

--

Michael

philippe_44
2015-05-28, 11:39
> Is there still somebody releasing firmwares ?

I doubt there will ever be firmware updates for the ip3k players again.

--

Michael

I mean, is the code accessible for somebody willing to do improvment or is this still kept internal to Logitech ? (which I surely understand, but should it be available, some, including me could be willing to help making evolutions)

pippin
2015-05-28, 12:12
Oh, you have an ip3k development kit and affection for assembly language? (The latter is a joke.... I hope)

philippe_44
2015-05-28, 14:21
Oh, you have an ip3k development kit and affection for assembly language? (The latter is a joke.... I hope)

An affection surely not :) but I'm old enough to have developped ton of things in assembly language

NB: I'm just trying to be helpful here

bwaldron
2015-05-30, 07:21
Well, these days replacing WMA by AAC would probably mean you can access more, not fewer radio stations, don't you think so? WMA is really in decline.

No doubt. But SiriusXM still uses it for streaming to Squeezeboxes.

pippin
2015-05-30, 07:22
Ok, didn't know that

philippe_44
2015-05-30, 09:07
Do does somebody know if source assembly (code) is available ?

pippin
2015-05-30, 09:11
Well, Michael will know :) I don't think it's open source so far. AFAIK you need a 10k$ dev toolkit to use it anyway.

bpa
2015-05-30, 10:24
Do does somebody know if source assembly (code) is available ?

NO - Sean Adams (original CEO) looked into this - I think two issues. Not all code was open source and costs of devcelopment suite see
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?12273-Open-firmware-for-SB2&p=31660&viewfull=1#post31660

philippe_44
2015-05-30, 11:00
NO - Sean Adams (original CEO) looked into this - I think two issues. Not all code was open source and costs of devcelopment suite see
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?12273-Open-firmware-for-SB2&p=31660&viewfull=1#post31660

Well, I could put some skin in the game for tools and let people cover back the fees if I can get somethign to work, but if the code is not accessible, then ... there's nothing I can do

pippin
2015-05-30, 11:11
Oh, 30k$, I remembered it was bad but not that it was _that_ bad.

You're not going to raise that kind of amount from the community

JJZolx
2015-05-30, 11:34
Ubicom, maker of the ip3023 processor in those devices, is now history. From what I can find, Qualcomm bought what was left of the company in 2012. I somehow doubt that the SDK for a 12 year old processor still costs anything like that.

philippe_44
2015-05-30, 11:50
Oh, 30k$, I remembered it was bad but not that it was _that_ bad.

You're not going to raise that kind of amount from the community


Ubicom, maker of the ip3023 processor in those devices, is now history. From what I can find, Qualcomm bought what was left of the company in 2012. I somehow doubt that the SDK for a 12 year old processor still costs anything like that.

That's what I was hopping - a few k$ I can find a solution for that (but not for 30k$ ...) and then, again, afterward, if I have something useful, people will feel free to give something back (or not ...)

bpa
2015-05-30, 12:08
That's what I was hopping - a few k$ I can find a solution for that and then, again, afterward, if I have something useful, people will feel free to give something back (or not ...)

Not a simple task/

I doubt it will be cheap- if the chip and SDK is still available then the company will probably still charge large amount as the customers who want long term support (e.g. military) usually have deep pockets.

You'll need Logitech to licence source for Slim proto and display stuff to you but the decoders were third party so you'll need to get licences for them (e.g. MP3, AAC, WMA etc.) and then there may be some other proprietary code (left over from Rhapsody or similar) which may have other conditions attached. Also the SDK may not include the licensing of the OS which was also Ubicom's - not sure how they'll charge for that.

philippe_44
2015-05-30, 13:13
I agree it is unlikely to be doable, I was hopping that maybe michael could establish a link here. I could try to take care of the ubicom part, but that piece is useless until there is source code of the app part of devices


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

bpa
2015-05-30, 13:23
I agree it is unlikely to be doable, I was hopping that maybe michael could establish a link here. I could try to take care of the ubicom part, but that piece is useless until there is source code of the app part of devices


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

Can't add anymore but for curiousity here is a link to the ip3023 datasheet (include some on development) which was similar to the ip3020 (I think) used in SB players http://www.texim-europe.com/getfile.aspx?id=68543