PDA

View Full Version : Squeezebox 3 common faults over time?



mgraves
2015-02-23, 13:29
I now have five SB3s, one of which was a recent purchase (used) from Ebay. This new (well, to me...) unit powered up fine but appears to have the same issue was one of my older units. The analog output of one channel is extremely low. I suspect that this is a simple matter of a bad capacitor. Perhaps even something that I could repair myself.

Is this something that is known to be a common fault over time? Are there any notes on what to replace if I should wish to do the repair?

I could just add an external DAC and forget about the problem, but that seems like a messy and potentially costly solution.

Thanks,
Michael Graves

Recoveryone
2015-02-23, 13:54
I have 2 working still and never had an issue with the analog output channels. Now I will say its been years since I used the analog outputs as I use Toslink now days for my connection, the SB3's I replace with Touches use analog now days.

mgraves
2015-02-23, 14:01
Oddly enough, I had one Touch. It was the very first SB to die on me. Of the SB3's (Classics if you prefer) I have one that has the original silver front & Slim Devices branding, and four Logitech models.

The fault is the same on two of them. Loss of level or complete loss of one analog output.

usbethjim
2015-02-23, 14:42
You are not alone! I also have a Slim Devices SB3 that has a diminished analog channel. I went with a little optical to analog converter to hang on to the unit. Haven't gone back to the repair idea...

Here are a few links:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?84395-SB3-Left-channel-has-gone-very-quiet

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?71914-SB3-volume-output-lower-on-left-than-right-channel

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97833-Squeezebox-Classic-Right-channel-output-has-almost-no-volume

Good luck - let us (or at least me) know how it turns out - I might be ready to try a repair?!?!

Jim

Mnyb
2015-02-23, 15:11
Yeah the failing capacitor in one channel .

Wifi card that breaks can make the player to reboot .

Failing psu ,can also make it reboot , failing PSU connector .

VFD displays that gets washed out .

The ir led in the remote can get loose .

You also have an odd bunch of software faults that a xilink reset fixes .
It can also forgets it's Mac adress ,so that you have to look at the sticker at the bottom and re-enter it again .

ralphy
2015-02-24, 05:14
I've often wondered if using the mono IR emitter in the headphone jack on the SB3 could be the cause of the left channel failure.

Having used IR blaster on one of my SB3s for several years. A few months ago I tried the analog outs only to discover it had developed the left channel volume drop issue.

I have two other SB3s purchased at the same time and the analog outs are fine having never used the emitter with them.

I ordered new caps, but have not yet replaced them as I'm concerned they will just fail again if I continue to use the IR emitter.

Can anyone corroborate or refute my suspicions?

usbethjim
2015-02-24, 06:31
I've often wondered if using the mono IR emitter in the headphone jack on the SB3 could be the cause of the left channel failure.

Having used IR blaster on one of my SB3s for several years. A few months ago I tried the analog outs only to discover it had developed the left channel volume drop issue.

I have two other SB3s purchased at the same time and the analog outs are fine having never used the emitter with them.

I ordered new caps, but have not yet replaced them as I'm concerned they will just fail again if I continue to use the IR emitter.

Can anyone corroborate or refute my suspicions?

My SlimDevices SB3 has never had anything attached to it except RCA cable on the analog outs. Yet it has the left channel failure.

So I think your IR emitter theory is not a reality....

Any chance you might detail your repair (photos/words/diagrams) for the rest of us?

Thanks
Jim

ralphy
2015-02-26, 07:47
My SlimDevices SB3 has never had anything attached to it except RCA cable on the analog outs. Yet it has the left channel failure.

So I think your IR emitter theory is not a reality....

Any chance you might detail your repair (photos/words/diagrams) for the rest of us?

Thanks
Jim

Thanks Jim for debunking my theory.

I now at least have some incentive to make the repair.

At the moment I'm only using digital out on that SB3.

When/if I make the repair I will take some pics and notes.

I've attached the pdf of the schematic for the SB2 DAC that Sean Adams links to in one of the threads you listed which is no longer active.
It's the same for the SB3 except the silk screen component names are different.

slartibartfast
2015-03-01, 03:12
I now have five SB3s, one of which was a recent purchase (used) from Ebay. This new (well, to me...) unit powered up fine but appears to have the same issue was one of my older units. The analog output of one channel is extremely low. I suspect that this is a simple matter of a bad capacitor. Perhaps even something that I could repair myself.

Is this something that is known to be a common fault over time? Are there any notes on what to replace if I should wish to do the repair?

I could just add an external DAC and forget about the problem, but that seems like a messy and potentially costly solution.

Thanks,
Michael Graves
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=633195


This post says that the polarity of the output capacitors could be incorrect so check that if you replace them.

ralphy
2016-04-24, 12:22
When/if I make the repair I will take some pics and notes.
Well, I finally replaced the C16 and C20 capacitors in my original slimdevices sb3, back when you could by them without the wireless card.

I used aluminum electrolytic 10uF 16V caps, purchased from digikey.

P/N USA1C100MDD-ND NICHICON CAP ALUM 10UF 16V 20% RADIAL

If I had not already ordered the caps, I would have ordered these non-polarity ones (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?71914-SB3-volume-output-lower-on-left-than-right-channel&p=851444&viewfull=1#post851444).

Opening the sb3 is quite easy, you just need a Torx 10 (T10) screwdriver.

http://lowtek.ca/roo/2011/squeezebox-classic-repair/

Remove the 2 x T10 screws from the back and then remove the front face plate.

With the face plate removed, unscrew the 4 x T10 screws from the front and slide out the "guts". It's one piece.

I cut the capacitor leads down close to the size of the original surface mount caps.

20353
20354

I attached the new caps with the same polarity as the original.

I opened a 3 year newer logitech sb3 to see if logitech had switched the polarity of the caps, but they have not. They were the same as in my original sb3. If they fail again.....I'll try them the other way.

Before.

20355

Original capactors removed.

20358

New ones installed.

20357

All back together now and both the analog out and headphone jack are working great!

beepbeep
2016-08-04, 05:36
Just registered to say thanks. My SB3 which has had one channel down for years is now fixed thanks to the info above.

Fizbin
2016-08-05, 16:36
I'm assuming you guys (who have this issue) have tried a new PSU?

gorlando
2017-01-05, 07:16
21804218052180621807
I had the same problem posted by several people here and I decided to follow the findings and replace C16 and C20.
I have used polarized capacitors 100uF / 25V since I had them at home, the value of these capacitors is not critical, someone has simply bypassed them and connected directly the DAC outlets to the analog RCA sockets. The space is sufficient so I welded these large capacitors. The SB-3 is now performing back as normal, nice sound and balanced channels again!

Measuring the old capacitor I found they were in the range of 100 pF instead of 10 uF!!

Thank you so much to this valuable forum!218042180521807

vinnielo
2017-01-18, 01:30
Another thanks from me, especially to ralphy for providing the helpful photos.
I have a balanced Squeezebox once again!

Fahzz
2017-01-18, 17:29
I'm assuming you guys (who have this issue) have tried a new PSU?

Is this the first diagnostic step for an SB3 that won't power up? I ordered a new PSU, but are there other things I can try while it is on its way?

effypoe
2017-01-20, 15:23
Just wanted to thank ralphy for posting specifics with part numbers and pictures. I was able to make the same repair and the analog outputs on my Squeezebox classic are working wonderfully again.

tcutting
2017-01-20, 15:32
Is this the first diagnostic step for an SB3 that won't power up? I ordered a new PSU, but are there other things I can try while it is on its way?
Common issue is problem with WiFi card. You can try removing the WiFi card to see if the SB3 boots up (requires opening the unit, however).

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Fahzz
2017-01-21, 06:05
Common issue is problem with WiFi card. You can try removing the WiFi card to see if the SB3 boots up (requires opening the unit, however).

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Thanks. The PSU came in and the problem is solved. Bought two more spares for eight bucks each. Can't live without this thing.

MrJohn
2017-12-13, 10:08
Thank you so much everyone involved in this thread - The left channel on my ageing SB3 went the other day and I was distraught :(

Then I found this thread and I just replaced the two capacitors as described which cost me 59p :)

The left channel is now working perfectly again :) Brilliant!!!

wl1
2018-02-27, 10:23
Well, I finally replaced the C16 and C20 capacitors in my original slimdevices sb3, back when you could by them without the wireless card.

If I had not already ordered the caps, I would have ordered these non-polarity ones (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?71914-SB3-volume-output-lower-on-left-than-right-channel&p=851444&viewfull=1#post851444).

Opening the sb3 is quite easy, you just need a Torx 10 (T10) screwdriver.

http://lowtek.ca/roo/2011/squeezebox-classic-repair/

Remove the 2 x T10 screws from the back and then remove the front face plate.

With the face plate removed, unscrew the 4 x T10 screws from the front and slide out the "guts". It's one piece.

I cut the capacitor leads down close to the size of the original surface mount caps.

All back together now and both the analog out and headphone jack are working great!

Another C16 and C20 success here, thanks for posting the detailed info.....[emoji851]

majones
2018-03-12, 08:08
Well, I'm gobsmacked. I gave it a go per Ralphy's excellent guidance and photos, and despite my not having used a soldering iron for 40 years it all came together beautifully. A few tips. A bright guy on YouTube (Mr Carlson's Lab) said to twist the electrolytic capacitors and snap them off rather than the fiddly job of desoldering. It worked really well, and I had good access to then clean-up the PCB pads with flux and solder wick. Then I used the Kemet multilayer ceramic capacitors because they lie flat and are easy to locate (but look nothing like capacitors).

rbl
2018-11-01, 09:36
Well, I'm gobsmacked. I gave it a go per Ralphy's excellent guidance and photos, and despite my not having used a soldering iron for 40 years it all came together beautifully. A few tips. A bright guy on YouTube (Mr Carlson's Lab) said to twist the electrolytic capacitors and snap them off rather than the fiddly job of desoldering. It worked really well, and I had good access to then clean-up the PCB pads with flux and solder wick. Then I used the Kemet multilayer ceramic capacitors because they lie flat and are easy to locate (but look nothing like capacitors).

My soldering skills were pretty bad at the best of times, and my soldering iron is my Dad's from the 50s! Just wondering if I mess up removing these capacitors, or putting new ones in, presumably the digital outputs will continue to work? So then I can just get a DAC... Am very tempted to twist them off as described elsewhere.

Also I am not sure whether to go for C16/20 or C21/23? I want the RCA outputs to work, not the headphones. Regarding whether they are correctly polarised, the black stripe on C16 is to the left away from the PCI card, C20 is to the right, and on the C21 & C23 it is at the bottom.

philippe_44
2018-11-01, 22:14
My soldering skills were pretty bad at the best of times, and my soldering iron is my Dad's from the 50s! Just wondering if I mess up removing these capacitors, or putting new ones in, presumably the digital outputs will continue to work? So then I can just get a DAC... Am very tempted to twist them off as described elsewhere.

Also I am not sure whether to go for C16/20 or C21/23? I want the RCA outputs to work, not the headphones. Regarding whether they are correctly polarised, the black stripe on C16 is to the left away from the PCI card, C20 is to the right, and on the C21 & C23 it is at the bottom.

I can confirm that twisting the caps works well on the SB3 PCB. I just did a full board, no damaged pad. Much easier than having to desolder them one by one. I gently push the top to make sure I'm not rocking them while twisting, that's all.

rbl
2018-11-07, 05:45
if I mess up removing these capacitors, or putting new ones in, presumably the digital outputs will continue to work? So then I can just get a DAC...

Also I am not sure whether to go for C16/20 or C21/23? I want the RCA outputs to work, not the headphones. Regarding whether they are correctly polarised, the black stripe on C16 is to the left away from the PCI card, C20 is to the right, and on the C21 & C23 it is at the bottom.

Any thoughts anyone on which capacitors to replace (RCA and headphone outputs are affected equally), and is there any chance messing up the capacitors will affect the digital outputs (I assume not)?

Clive B
2018-11-28, 19:54
Many thanks to those who have posted about this level imbalance problem and solution. Another SB3 saved from landfill.

philippe_44
2018-11-28, 20:06
Any thoughts anyone on which capacitors to replace (RCA and headphone outputs are affected equally), and is there any chance messing up the capacitors will affect the digital outputs (I assume not)?

AFAIK, these are the capacitors close to the RCA/Jack (to the DAC). I think it's a better idea to replace them all so that you have a SB3 ready for another few years.

sgmlaw
2018-11-29, 10:59
This is a nice thread to follow. I do a lot of electronics servicing and restoration, from ancient tube classics to the later high end pcb-based gear. I’ve worked on a few Squeezeboxes over the years.

For beginners in electronics servicing, desoldering and removing smd style caps is little different from the larger radials. On a cheaper non-eyelet style pcb pad such as used on this instrument, a twisting or rocking action once a joint is heated will remove just about any radial type. Just be sure to keep the pad hole open as the wet lead stub draws through. If a solder sucker or braid will not open a closed up pad hole, a heated scrap piece of lead cut from another cap will. Be sure to never force anything from the side opposite the pad, or you can lift the pad and weaken the trace.

Where there are excess leads after placing the new part, bending them slighty once the part is seated will hold the part tight to the board before soldering. Snip the remaining exposed leads after the joint has cooled, and you have a repair indistinguishable from factory assembly. Smds can be a little harder, as they often are pre-cut for machine assembly. But still nothing like replacing an op amp or other chip, which I do not recommend to novices.

For a slightly nicer sound, I have found that replacing the stock rca output couplers (when they fail) with Silmics does well, and takes away a little of the mid-fi tizz and haze that afflicts the SB3 and improves the dynamics slightly. Quality parts do make a difference, especially for anything directly in the signal path. Still, you are never going to make a classic sound better than a touch or transporter absent using it as a digital head end into something else.

The biggest issues I have encountered with the classics so far are the awful power supplies, the balky wireless card, and a vfd that eventually tires out. The only premature recapping I have had to do on them to date are the above coupling caps. But as they are now approaching 15 years in service, I would not be surprised to see more mainboard cap failures on them. The classic does not run hot as electronics go, but it does not run cool, either. The warmer any device runs, the shorter the mean capacitor life.

Happy servicing!

beels
2018-12-09, 21:31
My Classic v3 recently started scrolling uncontrollably (push up or down arrow once, and display continues to scroll). Now it is DOA except for a faint glow of the Toslink jack. I tried a new power supply; no improvement.

Are there some obvious troubleshooting steps I could try?

philippe_44
2018-12-09, 22:34
My Classic v3 recently started scrolling uncontrollably (push up or down arrow once, and display continues to scroll). Now it is DOA except for a faint glow of the Toslink jack. I tried a new power supply; no improvement.

Are there some obvious troubleshooting steps I could try?

1- Try ethernet
2- Remove the WiFi card and try again
3- if it works, re-seat CPU and WiFi cards
4- if it fails again, get a new WiFi card
5- if none of the above works, you can try changing capacitors on the motherboard. See above comments on this thread. If you are in the EU, contact @JoeMuc2009. If you decide to not try to fix it, don't bin it, sell it for parts on eBay :)

I've personally experienced a couple of time the discplay scroll problem and it was due to erratic connection b/c of failing power in the SB (not the PSU). Changing capacitors fixes the issue

beels
2018-12-09, 22:56
Thanks for the response.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I did try it without the WiFi card installed. Dead.

Also, before I got the replacement PSU, I tried some other PSUs, so maybe I fried some voltage controller or something.

philippe_44
2018-12-10, 23:09
Thanks for the response.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I did try it without the WiFi card installed. Dead.

Also, before I got the replacement PSU, I tried some other PSUs, so maybe I fried some voltage controller or something.

Then the only thing to try is quick check of internal dc/dc and regulators then capacitor replacement


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

tcutting
2018-12-12, 15:03
My Classic v3 recently started scrolling uncontrollably (push up or down arrow once, and display continues to scroll). Now it is DOA except for a faint glow of the Toslink jack. I tried a new power supply; no improvement.

Are there some obvious troubleshooting steps I could try?

Did you try a "Xilinx" reset?
Instructions (from the WIKI):

Some system operations that require you to point your remote control on the Squeezebox while starting the Squeezebox. To be sure you're doing it right, pull the power from the unit, press and hold the appropriate button on the remote while keeping it pointed at the unit, and give the unit power again, while all the time keeping the remote button pressed and the remote pointed at the unit.

Ip3k-based players

These codes apply to the ip3k-based players: Squeezebox 1, Squeezebox2, Squeezebox3, Boom.

ADD - Factory reset
1 - Program Xilinx
2 - Factory test mode
3 - Audio sine test

beels
2019-02-14, 23:21
Yes, I tried the Xlinx reset and the other ones you listed. Dead.
Thanks for the suggestion though.

On another thread, I found some voltage check points I was able to pass. And it seems like the 5V voltage regulator is working.

I'm going to use an ESR meter to do some capacitor testing. I'd look for a used replacement V3 before attempting a complete re-cap though.

philippe_44
2019-02-15, 04:53
Yes, I tried the Xlinx reset and the other ones you listed. Dead.
Thanks for the suggestion though.

On another thread, I found some voltage check points I was able to pass. And it seems like the 5V voltage regulator is working.

I'm going to use an ESR meter to do some capacitor testing. I'd look for a used replacement V3 before attempting a complete re-cap though.

Looks like a bad cap problem. A few of the SB I had showed the same issue of frozen scrolling then suddenly uncontrollable scrolling. All were due to unstable power supply because of bad caps. You can also try to remove the WiFi board and see, it causes current drain issues
If you decide to get an used SB3, don’t throw the existing one away, one of us will repair it to help maintaining the LMS ecosystem

beels
2019-02-15, 09:06
I checked all the larger e-caps (in-circuit) with an ESR tester and found five of interest:


These two are almost certainly bad, however, they are apparently related to the audio, so not implicated in my primary "dead/no display" issue:
C16 - 3.68 uF, ESR > 40 ohm
C20 - 4.25 uF, ESR > 40 ohm

These three are questionable. The "leaky" may be erroneous due to it being tested in-circuit:
C5 - leaky/in-circuit, 21.4 ohm
C49 - leaky/in-circuit, .14 ohm
C15 - leaky/in-circuit, 15 ohm

philippe_44
2019-02-15, 10:25
I checked all the larger e-caps (in-circuit) with an ESR tester and found five of interest:


These two are almost certainly bad, however, they are apparently related to the audio, so not implicated in my primary "dead/no display" issue:
C16 - 3.68 uF, ESR > 40 ohm
C20 - 4.25 uF, ESR > 40 ohm

These three are questionable. The "leaky" may be erroneous due to it being tested in-circuit:
C5 - leaky/in-circuit, 21.4 ohm
C49 - leaky/in-circuit, .14 ohm
C15 - leaky/in-circuit, 15 ohm

I've fixed more than 5 SB3 recently with that and if I may, my advice would be to replace all capacitors. It's a 30-60 mins job, very likely to fix the issue and you'll finally spend less time vs investigating w/o schematics & board knowledge

beels
2019-02-15, 12:49
Philippe,

Have you ever had a SB with the condition of an uncontrollable scrolling display that regressed to a dead display, like mine? And if so were you able to fix it with a re-cap? Are you talking only about the electrolytics - like about only 25 capacitors? Or did you do ALL caps?

Have you developed a parts list for the SB capacitors you would be willing to share?

philippe_44
2019-02-15, 19:30
Philippe,

Have you ever had a SB with the condition of an uncontrollable scrolling display that regressed to a dead display, like mine? And if so were you able to fix it with a re-cap? Are you talking only about the electrolytics - like about only 25 capacitors? Or did you do ALL caps?

Have you developed a parts list for the SB capacitors you would be willing to share?

I definitively saw multiple times the uncontrollable scrolling that was always fixed after changing the capacitors. It never went up to a dead display, though.
If you remove them, I recommend using the twisting method. It works very well, no removed tracks and is super fast vs un-soldering which is very painful. Use solder paste but soldering iron to re-solder them. Some around the main power have a large ground plane so are a bit more difficult, you might have to add some flux to have a good solder. Another thing, be careful when you solder them back, put them in the right order to leave enough room for easy soldering. Use logic, you'll see that space might be tight if you solder one vs the other.

Here is the full list with references from DigiKey

UCL1C221MCL1GS CAP ALUM 220UF 20% 16V SMD
UUA1C100MCL1GS CAP ALUM 10UF 20% 16V SMD
UUD1H010MCL1GS CAP ALUM 1UF 20% 50V SMD
EEE-FK1J220XP CAP ALUM 22UF 20% 63V SMD
UUD1H2R2MCL1GS CAP ALUM 2.2UF 20% 50V SMD
UUD1C470MCL1GS CAP ALUM 47UF 20% 16V SMD

Likely, the 63V one is not needed, but I simply replaced them all all the time.

beels
2019-02-16, 09:28
Well, philippe, I think you have inspired me to re-cap board. Thanks so much for the part numbers! It would've taken me a long time to get all the part numbers, and I might have made errors. I went through your list and noticed that you didn't mention the 2 through-hole caps. Do you replace those as well? I think I will go ahead and replace those while I have everything apart.

I have never done any SMT soldering before, but these are pretty large components, so I believe I can do it. I have a good solder station. It will take me longer than an hour though. You must be very proficient.

Do you think I will be OK to use 63/37 leaded solder, or do I need to use lead-free?

I'm still a little concerned about the Q2 transistor. Are you able to please tell me some test values for that component?

philippe_44
2019-02-16, 11:03
Well, philippe, I think you have inspired me to re-cap board. Thanks so much for the part numbers! It would've taken me a long time to get all the part numbers, and I might have made errors. I went through your list and noticed that you didn't mention the 2 through-hole caps. Do you replace those as well? I think I will go ahead and replace those while I have everything apart.

I have never done any SMT soldering before, but these are pretty large components, so I believe I can do it. I have a good solder station. It will take me longer than an hour though. You must be very proficient.

Do you think I will be OK to use 63/37 leaded solder, or do I need to use lead-free?

I'm still a little concerned about the Q2 transistor. Are you able to please tell me some test values for that component?

- I did not replace the thru-hole capacitors
- You can remove the capacitors using this method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8N9O3a9jiM - I've used that everytime and the tracks on the SB3 motherboard are strong enough. Just maintain the top of the capacitor while you twist it to not rock it
- I use 63/37paste and a fine tip for my solder iron, hot (300C)
- Put a bit of solder paste on each pad, maintain gently the capacitor with one finger on the top and solder one pad
- the other pade is easy to solder and you can potentially use flux to redo/improve the first pad
- when you're done with all of them, clean the flux with 99% alcool

I'll try to open one of my SB and measure the Q2 (unless Jo has some advice here)

beels
2019-02-19, 23:02
Thanks phillipe. That would be really nice if you could get some Q2 measurements. Then maybe I can see if I need to order that part as well.

beels
2019-03-02, 16:38
The Q3 component is a thyristor. I replaced it, but still have no display.

Given that I have a totally dead display, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to re-cap this board.

philippe_44
2019-03-02, 21:19
The Q3 component is a thyristor. I replaced it, but still have no display.

Given that I have a totally dead display, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to re-cap this board.

Don't put it in the bin. Per previous mails, you should contact Joe if you are in EU. If you are in NAM, I can give it a try, or I'll buy it for parts

[edit]: I also have a spare motherboard that works, I can send it to you as well.