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Dogberry2
2015-02-02, 09:07
Suppose some microcephalic pillock(s) arranged for a popular discussion thread to be shut down? Isn't there enough interest out there to create a replacement thread, with contributions from the community to keep it going? I think there is. The raw material is all there; all that's needed is to pull it together and continue the discussion. After all, the entire English language is in the public domain, so it isn't as if there would be any restrictions preventing people from talking about whatever they like.

castalla
2015-02-02, 09:14
Suppose some microcephalic pillock(s) arranged for a popular discussion thread to be shut down? Isn't there enough interest out there to create a replacement thread, with contributions from the community to keep it going? I think there is. The raw material is all there; all that's needed is to pull it together and continue the discussion. After all, the entire English language is in the public domain, so it isn't as if there would be any restrictions preventing people from talking about whatever they like.

Maybe things have moved on - there are plenty of alternative devices which can substitute for the original SBs.

What would continuation of a moribund thread actually achieve?

Dogberry2
2015-02-02, 09:26
"Moribund" is a strange adjective to apply to a thread with more than twenty new posts in just the last four days. Obviously people were interested in continuing the discussion; that's the reason the thread was closed. If it were moribund, it wouldn't have had to be shut down. Nobody demands the death penalty when the accused is already dead.

mbonsack
2015-02-02, 09:31
Isn't there enough interest out there to create a replacement thread, with contributions from the community to keep it going?

That's exactly what my "high-end hardware player" thread was intended to foster.

-mark

JackOfAll
2015-02-02, 12:05
Obviously people were interested in continuing the discussion; that's the reason the thread was closed.

Was it? The reason I asked for the thread to be closed was that the subject being discussed has already been subject to legal action last year. And as of today, it is in the hands of lawyers again. If that makes me a "microcephalic pillock", in your no doubt, humble opinion, then so be it.

P Nelson
2015-02-02, 16:42
Was it? The reason I asked for the thread to be closed was that the subject being discussed has already been subject to legal action last year. And as of today, it is in the hands of lawyers again. If that makes me a "microcephalic pillock", in your no doubt, humble opinion, then so be it.

JackofAll, I can only imagine the pain you are suffering from the legal action, that you clearly did not anticipate and most likely did not deserve. I saw in another closed post your request for "I respectfully ask people not to discuss this in any way, shape or form. The only thing that will result, if you don't respect this, is to make a bad situation, even worse!"

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a realistic request or expectation given that your problem is public. It is natural that people are going to discuss and speculate given the scant information that has been provided.

What I worry about is if this situation of closing threads attracts the attention of Logitech management and they decide to shut down this forum as they no longer sell squeezebox products and this becomes a headache. In that case, continued user support for our beloved product comes to an end. For this reason, this discussion needs to go elsewhere on some other hosted forum.

Paul

castalla
2015-02-02, 16:53
JackofAll, I can only imagine the pain you are suffering from the legal action, that you clearly did not anticipate and most likely did not deserve. I saw in another closed post your request for "I respectfully ask people not to discuss this in any way, shape or form. The only thing that will result, if you don't respect this, is to make a bad situation, even worse!"

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a realistic request or expectation given that your problem is public. It is natural that people are going to discuss and speculate given the scant information that has been provided.

What I worry about is if this situation of closing threads attracts the attention of Logitech management and they decide to shut down this forum as they no longer sell squeezebox products and this becomes a headache. In that case, continued user support for our beloved product comes to an end. For this reason, this discussion needs to go elsewhere on some other hosted forum.

Paul

Why not just accept that the thread and its contents are closed?

JJZolx
2015-02-02, 21:22
Was it? The reason I asked for the thread to be closed was that the subject being discussed has already been subject to legal action last year. And as of today, it is in the hands of lawyers again. If that makes me a "microcephalic pillock", in your no doubt, humble opinion, then so be it.

You're not doing yourself any favors by not explaining the situation. You just want the discussion to end, as though it didn't happen. That's impossible.

dasmueller
2015-02-02, 22:29
Some of the posts over the last several days have made many of us curious without a doubt. It appears that no further information of substance will be forthcoming in the near future.

I suggest we let it drop and perhaps at some point in the future we will learn more. For the present I think we are done and there is no point in asking for more clarification.

JJZolx
2015-02-02, 22:39
Some of the posts over the last several days have made many of us curious without a doubt. It appears that no further information of substance will be forthcoming in the near future.

I suggest we let it drop and perhaps at some point in the future we will learn more. For the present I think we are done and there is no point in asking for more clarification.

That's up to him. He could have just let it go, but he insisted that nobody talk about it. I've never heard of such a thing and cannot fathom how it could possibly affect his legal situation one way or the other. The real mistake was in shutting down the thread.

Mnyb
2015-02-02, 23:04
What is mysterius to me is why resurrecting the hardware part " a wand board compatible DAC " is such a problem .

it locks just like any of the other solutions around this forum , with diverse hardware conected to PI boards or odroids and similar .
Software to make it a squeezebox emulator is around everywhere on the forum ?

The rest of the old project can be as dead as it want to be ?

JJZolx
2015-02-02, 23:22
What is mysterius to me is why resurrecting the hardware part " a wand board compatible DAC " is such a problem .

it locks just like any of the other solutions around this forum , with diverse hardware conected to PI boards or odroids and similar .
Software to make it a squeezebox emulator is around everywhere on the forum ?

The rest of the old project can be as dead as it want to be ?

You're right, it doesn't add up at all.

alfista
2015-02-03, 03:55
Was it perhaps the name that shall not be mentioned but sounded a bit like Disunity Quease, that was the problem?
I'm truly sorry for the bad fortunes that may have fell upon involved parties, but the way it has been communicated in these forums is bound to draw ridicule.

JackOfAll
2015-02-03, 04:56
That's up to him. He could have just let it go, but he insisted that nobody talk about it. I've never heard of such a thing and cannot fathom how it could possibly affect his legal situation one way or the other. The real mistake was in shutting down the thread.

Because you "cannot fathom"..... The reason you cannot fathom is simple. I'm not at liberty to spell it out for you!

Please guys, let it go, for now. You want answers. I hear that! You want an explanation. I hear that!

I cannot "blurt out" the most pertinent piece of information surrounding all of this. It is subject to a non-disclosure clause! Permission is being sort from the other party to that agreement, to vary the terms of the agreement, so a full public statement can be made. I'm past caring, what sort of person people will perceive me, (or others to be), when the facts are known. But, believe me, when I say, I want to put this behind me and get on with my life.

Speculation, spoof threads, name calling, etc. etc. Right now, it is not helpful. Save it until you do have something factual to discuss.

JJZolx
2015-02-03, 05:07
You keep making this about you. The point you can't seem to get through your head is that people are past caring about you or your problems. They care about what happened to the community Squeezebox project, and what issues are keeping it from happening.

If you're under a non-disclosure agreement, fine, feel free to not post any further about yourself.

mherger
2015-02-03, 05:35
> Please guys, let it go, for now. You want answers. I hear that! You want
> an explanation. I hear that!

JackOfAll - I think your best bet to let this topic pass away is to no
longer post about it. It's like telling a troll to stop trolling. He'll
always have the last word. Only when you ignore him he'll stop.

--

Michael

JJZolx
2015-02-03, 05:45
Thank you Michael. Good advice, although I suspect it's far from the last we'll hear on the subject from the guy who doesn't want to talk about it.


John Swenson:

I hope you haven't gone back into hibernation. Just a couple of days ago you seemed very excited about moving on with the hardware project you'd been working on. Is it alive, or has someone put the fear of God into you about being sued?

doctor_big
2015-02-03, 05:56
I'd imagine the maker of mice and small computer speakers (who else could it be?) has deep pockets and razor-sharp rat-like lawyers. If they were swarming up my trouser leg, I'd likely say whatever they told me to say in order to stop them suing me into oblivion.

Give these guys a break.

Jason.

mherger
2015-02-03, 06:05
> I'd imagine the maker of mice and small computer speakers (who else
> could it be?)

That's 100% speculation. While I'm not informed about everything
happening in the company, I very much doubt your claim. I would have
heard about this either internally or from one of the persons involved
in this. But I haven't.

--

Michael

JJZolx
2015-02-03, 06:11
I'd imagine the maker of mice and small computer speakers (who else could it be?) has deep pockets and razor-sharp rat-like lawyers. If they were swarming up my trouser leg, I'd likely say whatever they told me to say in order to stop them suing me into oblivion.

Mr. Swenson wasn't worried about lawyers just a few days ago. Long after the whoa-is-me claims of the other guy. It's not like he was unaware of the legal issues, whatever they may have been. If there are rat-like lawyers involved, I highly doubt they belong to the maker of mice and computer speakers.

JackOfAll
2015-02-03, 06:35
The point you can't seem to get through your head is that people are past caring about you.....

No, I get that. I can't not get it. You and others, (by their words and actions), have made that crystal clear!


I think your best bet to let this topic pass away is to no longer post about it. It's like telling a troll to stop trolling. He'll always have the last word. Only when you ignore him he'll stop.

Thank you for the advice, Michael.

Mark Miksis
2015-02-03, 07:27
To me, the sad thing is that I wonder how many other potential third party projects or contributors are deterred by the mystery and uncertainty of all this. I suspect that the truth about all of this is much more mundane and narrowly defined than most people suspect. Without knowing that for sure, though, any future third party projects may be slowed.

cathcam
2015-02-09, 16:08
To me, the sad thing is that I wonder how many other potential third party projects or contributors are deterred by the mystery and uncertainty of all this. I suspect that the truth about all of this is much more mundane and narrowly defined than most people suspect. Without knowing that for sure, though, any future third party projects may be slowed.

I've dealt with this many times in many 25-years in senior positions for a couple of the worlds top computer companies. There really is nothing to be gained by speculating further here, the best thing is for those that want to pursue something real and related to the product owned by Logitech, is to contact them through their licensing, partner or legal team.

One project, an emulator of a specific piece of equipment, survives to this day 20-years later exactly because once the escalation and war of words started, it was clearly best for everyone to withdraw from public debate and settle the disagreement privately. As a result, a book I co-wrote had to be recalled, and a second issue published without an entire chapter. It was an interesting and stressful example of backdown tactics.

All the facebooks, twitters, fora, an interweb comments in the world won't solve this. There are potentially any number of legal issues to overcome before building a device capable of providing the same services as a Logitech Squeezebox, including copyright, trademark, patents etc.

Anyone involved in the original creation of the software and hardware products and services around these products can be subject to any number of restrictions. While we can speculate, if there are indeed legal holds in place in relation to discussion, any one that knows risks serious penalties if they give any real direction or answers.

Continuing to push for disclosure will likely end in "if want something really bad, thats how you get it, really bad" category....

erland
2015-02-10, 23:17
To me, the sad thing is that I wonder how many other potential third party projects or contributors are deterred by the mystery and uncertainty of all this. I suspect that the truth about all of this is much more mundane and narrowly defined than most people suspect. Without knowing that for sure, though, any future third party projects may be slowed.

It has made me more careful of what I post in some threads in the forum. Mainly because I want to ensure to not make the legal problems worse for the people involved by saying something that make them violate a NDA they might have signed just because they are frustrated.

I think the important lesson for anyone that want to release a hardware product/DIY-kit in the future is to make sure to do it through a company instead of an unofficial community group or individual. Also, make sure to use a name and thread that isn't closely related to the old dead project.

I'm reasonably sure that Logitech isn't involved in any legal action related to the old dead project, so don't consider Logitech to be the bad guy regarding all this.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

JJZolx
2015-02-10, 23:29
I think the important lesson for anyone that want to release a hardware product/DIY-kit in the future is to make sure to do it through a company instead of an unofficial community group or individual. Also, make sure to use a name and thread that isn't closely related to the old dead project.

I'm reasonably sure that Logitech isn't involved in any legal action related to the old dead project, so don't consider Logitech to be the bad guy regarding all this.

More assumptions and speculation, just like those voiced by the previous poster.

How can you know "the important lesson" unless you know the issues that were (or weren't) dealt with? If you don't think Logitech was involved, then why would you think the name was an issue? That makes no sense.

Pascal Hibon
2015-02-11, 11:19
More assumptions and speculation, just like those voiced by the previous poster.

How can you know "the important lesson" unless you know the issues that were (or weren't) dealt with? If you don't think Logitech was involved, then why would you think the name was an issue? That makes no sense.

Common man, just let it go.
The people involved who have asked to drop this discussion will have a very good reason. To continue nagging about it will not help and for sure you want get any further answers due to the reasons already mentioned several times by those involved.
Move on and let it rest.

JJZolx
2015-02-11, 11:24
Common man, just let it go.
The people involved who have asked to drop this discussion will have a very good reason. To continue nagging about it will not help and for sure you want get any further answers due to the reasons already mentioned several times by those involved.
Move on and let it rest.

I'm not nagging anyone. I'd just like to think that the idea of a community Squeezebox player is still possible. And if not, I'd like to know why not. Speculative or not.

I don't give a damn if the guy with the supposed legal issues never posts again in these forums. That's his decision, but the "don't talk about it" angle is pure bullshit.

guidof
2015-02-11, 11:27
I'm reasonably sure that Logitech isn't involved in any legal action related to the old dead project, so don't consider Logitech to be the bad guy regarding all this.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Absent any actual information, one can only speculate. But if Logitech was not involved, then it would seem to be good PR for them to say so on this forum.

Guido F.

erland
2015-02-11, 13:53
I'd just like to think that the idea of a community Squeezebox player is still possible. And if not, I'd like to know why not. Speculative or not.


A community based Squeezebox player is possible but it needs to be organized under a company or some individual needs to be prepare to risk legal actions as an individual (not recommended). We should respect the wishes of the leaders of the previous now dead project and make sure to use new threads and new project name for any new effort.

If anyone wants to do something and think they have the necessary skills, please send me a mail or PM and we can see if there is a potential to organize something. I don't want any mail/PM from people who just want the final product but doesn't have the necessary technical skills to do the work.

erland
2015-02-11, 13:58
Absent any actual information, one can only speculate. But if Logitech was not involved, then it would seem to be good PR for them to say so on this forum.


This is a community forum, there have never been much official posts from Logitech here, the most official posts you will see are those from mherger, who has already said that he don't think Logitech is involved.

If you want me to speculate, the reason to not use the name of the old dead project is just to avoid further legal actions towards the previous members of that project, but this is just speculation.

pippin
2015-02-11, 14:00
Absent any actual information, one can only speculate. But if Logitech was not involved, then it would seem to be good PR for them to say so on this forum.


You are assuming that anyone from Logitech other than Michael has even looked at this forum over the last two years. I believe that assumption is wrong. To the contrary, I'd be willing to bet that nobody who matters in issues like this at Logitech is even aware of this whole discussion.

And I agree all that crying out loud might cause is that this might change and that would be a bad thing for everyone.

I just imaging people writing angry mails to Logitech management about some purported behavior they have never even heard of based on information brought forward in this thread... Want this forum to be shut down? That's probably the best way to make sure it is...

cathcam
2015-02-11, 14:33
You are assuming that anyone from Logitech other than Michael has even looked at this forum over the last two years. I believe that assumption is wrong. To the contrary, I'd be willing to bet that nobody who matters in issues like this at Logitech is even aware of this whole discussion.

And I agree all that crying out loud might cause is that this might change and that would be a bad thing for everyone.

I just imaging people writing angry mails to Logitech management about some purported behavior they have never even heard of based on information brought forward in this thread... Want this forum to be shut down? That's probably the best way to make sure it is...

Indeed, again from experience, as a Senior design engineer at currently Dell but for 22-years at IBM, big companies NEVER deny anything. Why? Because it is very hard for them to be accurate about what they are denying. Do they know for a fact none of their employees participated in the thing they are denying? For the most part no and once you go beyond a couple of hundred it's to difficult and time consuming to be sure(*1).

While an employee may feel they can comment or be involved in something as an individual, if a company denies something, you and the law would asume they mean it and the denial covered all their employees.

This post wasn't specifically aimed at the topic of this post, just an explanation of why what was proposed won't happen.

*1. At least as of 2013, Logitech had 9,000 employees.

cathcam
2015-02-11, 14:45
Those of you not involved in product design and delivery won't understand how complex a world it is these days. At almost every turn there is some form of consideration that you need legal and licensing agreement with,

Just because you can build something from already available components, hardware or software doesn't mean that once built, you can then sell the end result. Just because, for example, you can buy a cheap DAC from a supplier in China, doesn't mean they have the license and the rights to sell it to you to include in another product.

In the open source software arena, just because you can get Linux, Apache, Angular JS and a dozen other components which you can build into an application stack, doesn't then mean you can just call it open source and resell it with no consequences.

Getting a product to market now, even as a "community" project has all sorts of risks, costs and due diligence. Thats why you see so many go to crowd funding. One of my current favorites due to ship anytime is the Dash Wireless headphones(*1), they raised over $3-million. I hope they've taken all the required steps, otherwise all their time, effort, design and IP could come to nothing when a company comes calling to tell you that the software, hardware or algorithm in your product violates their distribution, or worse patent.(*2)

So, I have no idea what happened in this instance, but can tell folks that have never produced a product for sale, community, commodity or otherwise, there is much more to it than you'd imagine, and then there are people, their egos and feelings....

*1 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hellobragi/the-dash-wireless-smart-in-ear-headphones
*2 https://books.google.com/books?id=3GBGGGay9vQC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=licensing+dolby+noise+cancelling+patents&source=bl&ots=BIrffGZwYi&sig=sApa0q9_QnFLL4nvfk35RaVNEzE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x83bVOzSM8_5yQTJroHYBw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=licensing%20dolby%20noise%20cancelling%20patents&f=false

guidof
2015-02-11, 16:45
You are assuming that anyone from Logitech other than Michael has even looked at this forum over the last two years. I believe that assumption is wrong. To the contrary, I'd be willing to bet that nobody who matters in issues like this at Logitech is even aware of this whole discussion.
...

Even if Michael is the only Logitech employee that has ever looked at this forum, that makes it at least one Logitech person who is aware of this discussion. It's not a discussion that looks particularly like good PR for Logitech, no matter how large the company and how small the number of potentially disgruntled costumers.

Guido F.

castalla
2015-02-11, 16:47
Even if Michael is the only Logitech employee that has ever looked at this forum, that makes it at least one Logitech person who is aware of this discussion. It's not a discussion that looks particularly like good PR for Logitech, no matter how large the company and how small the number of potentially disgruntled costumers.

Guido F.

Are you wearing a 'disgruntled costume' in your avatar??!!!

guidof
2015-02-11, 16:50
Are you wearing a 'disgruntled costume' in your avatar??!!!

Ha ha. (Ask the SNL's father).

Guido F. , not S.

pippin
2015-02-11, 16:52
Michael is not in PR

dasmueller
2015-02-11, 18:52
The people/person who were initially involved in discussing this project here have asked that the discussion stop. Many of us would like to know about the status of the project and why the request for the cessation of discussion. There is nothing wrong with being curious, but after a bit it should just stop. If there at some point happen to be further developments perhaps they will become evident through a different venue than this forum. I would assume that anyone who had a vested interest in the project through either time or money have the means to discuss it outside this forum if they choose to do so.

I am beginning to think that the folks who continually bring up this topic have a motive other than learning more about a potential new product. I do not mean to offend but that is what it has become to appear to me.

The title of this thread has become real from the perspective that the continued discussion is comical.

servies
2015-02-13, 08:28
In the open source software arena, just because you can get Linux, Apache, Angular JS and a dozen other components which you can build into an application stack, doesn't then mean you can just call it open source and resell it with no consequences.

The dozen other components I can't tell anything about but with Linux, Apache and Angular JS this would be no problem at all.
The only thing you'll have to do is provide the sources for the parts that are under the GPL license. the Apache and the MIT licenses don't require that.
Everybody who tells you otherwise about those licenses should be shot, dismembered, shot again and thrown in an active volcano...
A wooden stake through their hearts may also be necessary...

jimmypowder
2015-02-14, 06:28
I bought an Auralic Aries (femto clock version) and it blows away the Transporter and Squeezebox Touch .
The software needs work but the audio quality is terrific .
Tidal integration , Internet radio , usb external drive support , AirPlay , Songcast ( better then AirPlay imo .

castalla
2015-02-14, 12:02
I bought an Auralic Aries (femto clock version) and it blows away the Transporter and Squeezebox Touch .
The software needs work but the audio quality is terrific .
Tidal integration , Internet radio , usb external drive support , AirPlay , Songcast ( better then AirPlay imo .

At 1500 GBP it should make your dinner as well!

jimmypowder
2015-02-14, 13:47
At 1500 GBP it should make your dinner as well! The Transporter cost 2k when it came out .

Many years ago !

Grumpy Bob
2015-02-14, 22:56
I bought an Auralic Aries (femto clock version) and it blows away the Transporter and Squeezebox Touch .
The software needs work but the audio quality is terrific .
Tidal integration , Internet radio , usb external drive support , AirPlay , Songcast ( better then AirPlay imo .

After this week's BBC Radio stream debacle (see the BBC iPlayer plugin thread in Third Party Software) - does the Auralic Ares still play decent resolution BBC radio streams? I'm impressed how the SB community has come together to resolve this in LMS, despite the BBC's attempts to keep the new HLS streams secret from the licence-paying public.

I'm using a variety of devices (including a Touch, SB3 and 3 x Raspberry Pi) to stream bits to DACs.

Robert

Corelli45
2015-02-15, 02:13
That's the thing about the Squeezebox structure.Its way ahead of others in terms of active support, plug ins, continuous development and reliability. It's also dependent on what your Squeezebox is attached to. With EDO and a quality usb Dac it can challnge even an Aries. I have listened to a Vortexbox attached to a good quality Dac and the differences between that and an Aurender W20 were so negligible that a change wasn't possible. What Ive found is that a well set up Squeezebox network can very easily challenge and sometimes match the super streamers of today. I love this system and the very clever accessories that have built up around it. And I'm now listening to the higher quality BBC R3 stream as I write this. Thanks to bpa and all his generous colleagues. Long live Squeezebox!

jimmypowder
2015-02-15, 06:47
After this week's BBC Radio stream debacle (see the BBC iPlayer plugin thread in Third Party Software) - does the Auralic Ares still play decent resolution BBC radio streams? I'm impressed how the SB community has come together to resolve this in LMS, despite the BBC's attempts to keep the new HLS streams secret from the licence-paying public. I'm using a variety of devices (including a Touch, SB3 and 3 x Raspberry Pi) to stream bits to DACs. Robert

Well I'm not sure but Auralic will be adding mytuner radio service within the next month I believe . You can check mytuner to see if the streams are there at the bitrate
you want . You can also add the url of any radio station if it's possible . I don't know if that's possible with BBC .

By the way , Radio stations play flawlessly .

The Aries is not a Dac, just a streamer so you have to connect it to a dac . USB sounds best on the Aries IMO .

Zoltan
2015-02-15, 07:42
The Aries is not a Dac, just a streamer so you have to connect it to a dac . USB sounds best on the Aries IMO .

In your earlier post you said the "sound quality is terrific". Unless I am missing something, I would have thought that the only relevant part SQ-wise of a streamed digital source is the DAC.

kidstypike
2015-02-15, 07:45
In your earlier post you said the "sound quality is terrific". Unless I am missing something, I would have thought that the only relevant part SQ-wise of a streamed digital source is the DAC.

I think it depends on how much the transport costs :)

jimmypowder
2015-02-15, 10:31
In your earlier post you said the "sound quality is terrific". Unless I am missing something, I would have thought that the only relevant part SQ-wise of a streamed digital source is the DAC.

All I can tell you is the Auralic is far superior in audio quality feeding the same dac then either a Transporter or Touch . You can say
Bits are bits but the difference is significant . The Touch is very grainy compared to the Aries .

So you don't believe me ,listen to one .

jimmypowder
2015-02-15, 10:37
I think it depends on how much the transport costs :)

Anyone wanna buy a Silver Slim Devices Transporter ,I have one in excellent condition .

Let me know .

Corelli45
2015-02-15, 15:37
Since listening to the Aurender, I've become very cynical about expensive streamers. They are invariably overpriced and software is often underdeveloped. I've not listened to a Transporter but quite a few owners appear to prefer the Touch over the Transporter. I prefer the Vortexbox usb implementation over the EDO and with a good Dac it easily challenges more expensive streaming products. I've listened to Naim and Linn. Volume matched, there really is little difference.

jimmypowder
2015-02-15, 15:42
Since listening to the Aurender, I've become very cynical about expensive streamers. They are invariably overpriced and software is often underdeveloped. I've not listened to a Transporter but quite a few owners appear to prefer the Touch over the Transporter. I prefer the Vortexbox usb implementation over the EDO and with a good Dac it easily challenges more expensive streaming products. I've listened to Naim and Linn. Volume matched, there really is little difference.

I prefer the Transporter to the touch for Audio quality fed into the same dac . I prefer the Transporter over the Touch using both's internal dac. Neither is modded .

Greg Erskine
2015-02-15, 17:18
I prefer the Transporter to the touch for Audio quality fed into the same dac . I prefer the Transporter over the Touch using both's internal dac. Neither is modded .

+1. Exactly my opinion as well.

cliveb
2015-02-16, 03:48
All I can tell you is the Auralic is far superior in audio quality feeding the same dac then either a Transporter or Touch . You can say
Bits are bits but the difference is significant . The Touch is very grainy compared to the Aries .
So what you are saying is that you have a DAC which sounds markedly different when fed from different transports.
Given that the issue of DAC vulnerability to transport variance was solved at least a decade ago, the only sensible conclusion is that your DAC is broken in this respect. (Or, if you don't want to countenance that possibility, the other explanation is that there is actually no difference and you are experiencing something that affects us all: expectation bias).

Corelli45
2015-02-16, 03:48
As I said, I've never heard a Transporter but I certainly prefer the Vortexbox over the Touch. Interesting to hear your opinions and all the more frustrating that Logitech pulled the plug.

doctor_big
2015-02-16, 04:16
Anyone wanna buy a Silver Slim Devices Transporter ,I have one in excellent condition .

Let me know .
I'll bite... How much?

Jason

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 07:17
So what you are saying is that you have a DAC which sounds markedly different when fed from different transports.
Given that the issue of DAC vulnerability to transport variance was solved at least a decade ago, the only sensible conclusion is that your DAC is broken in this respect. (Or, if you don't want to countenance that possibility, the other explanation is that there is actually no difference and you are experiencing something that affects us all: expectation bias).

LOL. Please. The Touch or Transporter using coax fed into the same dac doesn't sound as good as the Auralic Aries.Not even close. Not expectation bias .I know grain when I hear it.Maybe its the linear power supply or something else
but the resolution of the same songs is much better with the Aries.

Then why is it that the Transporter's digital out to the same dac sounds clearer then the SB Touch fed into the same dac?

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 08:41
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/measurements-logitech-squeezebox-touch.html?m=1 Why not just keep that trusty SB 3 then ? Or the cheapest transport you could find ?

Of course they have a dac but my guess is you could tell a audio quality difference using spdif on both feeding the same dac .

cliveb
2015-02-16, 09:24
Then why is it that the Transporter's digital out to the same dac sounds clearer then the SB Touch fed into the same dac?
Two possibilities:

1. Because you expect it to.
2. Because the DAC in question has unacceptable sensitivity to different transports.

(My money is strongly on #1)

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 09:28
Two possibilities: 1. Because you expect it to. 2. Because the DAC in question has unacceptable sensitivity to different transports. (My money is strongly on #1)

Lol ok take a listen for yourself then . Demo a Aries and let me know what you find .

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 09:30
Lol ok take a listen for yourself then . Demo a Aries and let me know what you find .

By the way I have used multiple dacs and I hear differences

jfo
2015-02-16, 11:51
LOL. Please. The Touch or Transporter using coax fed into the same dac doesn't sound as good as the Auralic Aries.Not even close. Not expectation bias .I know grain when I hear it.Maybe its the linear power supply or something else
but the resolution of the same songs is much better with the Aries.

Then why is it that the Transporter's digital out to the same dac sounds clearer then the SB Touch fed into the same dac?

What is "grain"??

kidstypike
2015-02-16, 12:19
What is "grain"??

Good question, I thought of asking that myself. How can something sound grainy :confused:

Corelli45
2015-02-16, 12:30
I've never heard grain in sound. I can hear different levels of compression pretty well. I think equipment has to be level matched before you make any worthwhile comparisons. I also heard that implementation of asynchronous usb and other digital outputs was crucial to performance. Perhaps these could be the reasons for difference in sound?

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 12:36
I've never heard grain in sound. I can hear different levels of compression pretty well. I think equipment has to be level matched before you make any worthwhile comparisons. I also heard that implementation of asynchronous usb and other digital outputs was crucial to performance. Perhaps these could be the reasons for difference in sound?

Here's an article for the bits are bits crowd :

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-do-bit-perfect-digital.html

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 12:37
What is "grain"??

What I mean is resolution .

robinbowes
2015-02-16, 12:51
Heh, it's good to see the "audiophile" arguments lumbering on, and on, and on... ;)

It's like I've never been away. :D

R.

Mnyb
2015-02-16, 13:13
Heh, it's good to see the "audiophile" arguments lumbering on, and on, and on... ;)

It's like I've never been away. :D

R.

Some off us left the cult in the meantime :D

All these differences go away once you do proper tests like ABX .
Any reasonably good transport is completely transparent to a human listener . And in most cases the output from the dac is electrically identical so there teally is no difference at all .

Yes the most likly cause for these "differences" is sigthed listening test with some learned audiophile bias .

With the small differences in question << 100dB down in the noise or nonexisting .
All sigthed testing are just anectotes and contain no real information .

If one subjectively experience very large differences something is ver wrong either one is heavily biased or the equipment is broken.

What kind of dac are we talking about ? There are a lot of high end stuff that performs no better than a chinese dvd player for 50$ so price really has nothing to do with it .

If th e equipment in question is audiophile enough it can be broken by design :/ nos dac anyone ?

Btw is this tread dead now ? Due to natural causes ? Its complete off topic .
Anyone actually designing a squeezebox/dac thingy may post i diy instead .

jimmypowder
2015-02-16, 15:24
Some off us left the cult in the meantime :D

All these differences go away once you do proper tests like ABX .
Any reasonably good transport is completely transparent to a human listener . And in most cases the output from the dac is electrically identical so there teally is no difference at all .

Yes the most likly cause for these "differences" is sigthed listening test with some learned audiophile bias .

With the small differences in question << 100dB down in the noise or nonexisting .
All sigthed testing are just anectotes and contain no real information .

If one subjectively experience very large differences something is ver wrong either one is heavily biased or the equipment is broken.

What kind of dac are we talking about ? There are a lot of high end stuff that performs no better than a chinese dvd player for 50$ so price really has nothing to do with it .

If th e equipment in question is audiophile enough it can be broken by design :/ nos dac anyone ?

Btw is this tread dead now ? Due to natural causes ? Its complete off topic .
Anyone actually designing a squeezebox/dac thingy may post i diy instead .

I got the jitterbug ! Its a bad case ,lol .I knew I should have taken a jitterbug shot this winter season. Bits are bits! Jitter gonna hurt my bits. Maybe the Aries is more immune to the jitterbug.

Femto clockers working 24/7! Better then jitterbug shots. Oh where is Phil Leigh ? It's too bad he's not here to cure my jitterbug!

jimmypowder
2015-02-17, 08:40
I do have the jumbo golden ears!

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9bPdVR6YBRxuqV4n2aZMUk7DmSr_X3 apNXwR11gb6uEKlOjf2

celo
2017-08-11, 13:59
I have been using SBT for few years and have no issues. I use it strictly as a streamer since I have an external DAC. LMS is running via RPi3.

I just came across a used Aires Mini with Sbooster. I will pay double what I paid for the SBT and if I sell my SBT, my cost will be around $300 just getting the Aries Mini.

Is it worth it?

garym
2017-08-11, 14:12
I have been using SBT for few years and have no issues. I use it strictly as a streamer since I have an external DAC. LMS is running via RPi3.

I just came across a used Aires Mini with Sbooster. I will pay double what I paid for the SBT and if I sell my SBT, my cost will be around $300 just getting the Aries Mini.

Is it worth it?

short answer. no. Keep the SB Touch.

celo
2017-08-11, 14:17
short answer. no. Keep the SB Touch.

Thanks Gary.

Let me ask this. Last night my wife and I did a blind test running the SBT via power bank and stock AC adapter.

Both times we liked the AC adapter better. Everything was more open and real sounding vs. the battery power. Then I thought, maybe an AC adapter update would make things better. Such as Sbooster or something similar. What do you think about that? Thanks.

garym
2017-08-11, 14:21
Thanks Gary.

Let me ask this. Last night my wife and I did a blind test running the SBT via power bank and stock AC adapter.

Both times we liked the AC adapter better. Everything was more open and real sounding vs. the battery power. Then I thought, maybe an AC adapter update would make things better. Such as Sbooster or something similar. What do you think about that? Thanks.

You're asking the wrong person. I believe in science and engineering and facts. things like Sbooster are audiophool nonsense. the only thing they do better is separate you from your money. There's all kinds of technical reasons that a linear power supply won't improve the Touch, and there are hundreds of posts on some old threads here on that. But short answer is: use the Touch with the supplied AC power brick and enjoy the music!

edit: if you want to improve your sound, get better speakers, place the speakers properly, or do other "room treatments". These things can matter. Not power cords or audio cables. (that is, unless something is broken....but if it's broken, it won't be subtle sound quality differences).

celo
2017-08-11, 14:38
You're asking the wrong person. I believe in science and engineering and facts. things like Sbooster are audiophool nonsense. the only thing they do better is separate you from your money. There's all kinds of technical reasons that a linear power supply won't improve the Touch, and there are hundreds of posts on some old threads here on that. But short answer is: use the Touch with the supplied AC power brick and enjoy the music!

edit: if you want to improve your sound, get better speakers, place the speakers properly, or do other "room treatments". These things can matter. Not power cords or audio cables. (that is, unless something is broken....but if it's broken, it won't be subtle sound quality differences).

I hear ya! Point well taken. Thank you:)

pippin
2017-08-11, 16:36
Hm... while I actually agree on the Sbooster and for the life of me I would not let that device near any of my power outlets (having once seen the interior of one, that device was seriously dangerous)... and no, I also don’t believe linear power supplies improve anything ...
But the power supply that comes with the Touch also can suck big time.
I replaced two of them (against stock switching power supplies) because they were too noisy.
Not in the sense that that have a noisy power output or something but LITERALLY noisy. They wheeze. I could still hear them two rooms away.

garym
2017-08-11, 16:40
Hm... while I actually agree on the Sbooster and for the life of me I would not let that device near any of my power outlets (having once seen the interior of one, that device was seriously dangerous)... and no, I also don’t believe linear power supplies improve anything ...
But the power supply that comes with the Touch also can suck big time.
I replaced two of them (against stock switching power supplies) because they were too noisy.
Not in the sense that that have a noisy power output or something but LITERALLY noisy. They wheeze. I could still hear them two rooms away.

interesting. I haven't heard any noise from the two Touch power supplies I use. But I can certainly see how that would be annoying. I suspect these touch power supplies are all sourced from different manufacturers, so who knows....

pippin
2017-08-11, 16:47
Mine were pretty early ones and Logitech was well aware of the problem (during the beta I sent another one back and the replacements were originally more silent and only later developed the noise).
I‘m not sure whether i remember this correctly but the problem might also have been specific to 220V/50Hz

garym
2017-08-11, 16:49
Mine were pretty early ones and Logitech was well aware of the problem (during the beta I sent another one back and the replacements were originally more silent and only later developed the noise).
I‘m not sure whether i remember this correctly but the problem might also have been specific to 220V/50Hz

mine are all in US...110V

Julf
2017-08-15, 08:54
Let me ask this. Last night my wife and I did a blind test running the SBT via power bank and stock AC adapter.

Blind test, but not double blind? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans