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ctbarker32
2014-12-30, 18:17
Hi,

I thought I would pose a question to the community to generate some discussion about the future of the Squeezebox product we love.

I have personally been using the Squeezebox products and server for about 10 years and it's been a rewarding (sometimes frustrating) ride. I still have my original SB3's and all the squeezeboxs (sans the Transporter) through to the Touch. I am now having great fun experimenting with Raspberry Pi based clients courtesy of Picoreplayer and Squeezeplug. My personal LMS server holds over 6,000 albums across several terabytes of storage.

So, my question for 2015 - Is the Universe of LMS and Squeezebox expanding, contracting, or staying about the same?

On the expanding side, I am very encouraged by the development of products like Squeezelite that empowers Picoreplayer and Squeezeplug to harness the power of the incredibly malleable Raspberry Pi platform. I think this is an incredible breakthrough and breathes new life into the platform. I am also encouraged at the introduction of services such as Tidal and ability for Squeezebox to access via the ickstream plugin. I am also happy that we can experiment with DSD files using the plugin introduced for LMS.

On the contracting side, while USB DAC PC Audio is all the rage it is almost always implemented using some form of host personal computer hooked up to a DAC. I never see anyone utilizing Squeezebox based clients using LMS to accomplish the same thing in a more distributed network environment. Can we as a community do more to publicize the LMS platform?

I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems seem to use DLNA type technology that we all know doesn't hold a candle to the performance and features of LMS. This, despite many of these systems being no more than customized Linux computers. Is there any reason other manufacturers cannot implement LMS/Squeezebox support into their own products the way open source applications already do? Every time I see a new proprietary music server solution (usually at a high cost) I feel it is always reinventing the wheel and solving problems that have already been solved by LMS?

I continue to marvel at the amazing system that Sean Adams and his team created with great foresight that has allowed the Squeezebox ecosystem to continue to live on despite some pretty severe setbacks.

I believe that the future remains bright and hope that over time the community will coalesce around solutions that bring great innovation to this platform.

-CB

castalla
2014-12-30, 18:39
Hi,

I thought I would pose a question to the community to generate some discussion about the future of the Squeezebox product we love.

I have personally been using the Squeezebox products and server for about 10 years and it's been a rewarding (sometimes frustrating) ride. I still have my original SB3's and all the squeezeboxs (sans the Transporter) through to the Touch. I am now having great fun experimenting with Raspberry Pi based clients courtesy of Picoreplayer and Squeezeplug. My personal LMS server holds over 6,000 albums across several terabytes of storage.

So, my question for 2015 - Is the Universe of LMS and Squeezebox expanding, contracting, or staying about the same?

On the expanding side, I am very encouraged by the development of products like Squeezelite that empowers Picoreplayer and Squeezeplug to harness the power of the incredibly malleable Raspberry Pi platform. I think this is an incredible breakthrough and breathes new life into the platform. I am also encouraged at the introduction of services such as Tidal and ability for Squeezebox to access via the ickstream plugin. I am also happy that we can experiment with DSD files using the plugin introduced for LMS.

On the contracting side, while USB DAC PC Audio is all the rage it is almost always implemented using some form of host personal computer hooked up to a DAC. I never see anyone utilizing Squeezebox based clients using LMS to accomplish the same thing in a more distributed network environment. Can we as a community do more to publicize the LMS platform?

I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems seem to use DLNA type technology that we all know doesn't hold a candle to the performance and features of LMS. This, despite many of these systems being no more than customized Linux computers. Is there any reason other manufacturers cannot implement LMS/Squeezebox support into their own products the way open source applications already do? Every time I see a new proprietary music server solution (usually at a high cost) I feel it is always reinventing the wheel and solving problems that have already been solved by LMS?

I continue to marvel at the amazing system that Sean Adams and his team created with great foresight that has allowed the Squeezebox ecosystem to continue to live on despite some pretty severe setbacks.

I believe that the future remains bright and hope that over time the community will coalesce around solutions that bring great innovation to this platform.

-CB

IMHO - the future is bright! Look for the ickstream plugin, or check out the amazing developments in squeeze2upnp, where you can turn upnp renderer devices into squeezebox players (including Sonos!)

Daverz
2014-12-30, 21:06
Hi,
I never see anyone utilizing Squeezebox based clients using LMS to accomplish the same thing in a more distributed network environment.


Many of us use the Enhanced Digital Output app to connect the SB Touch USB output to a USB DAC (I use it with an Auralic Vega).

cathcam
2014-12-31, 01:05
I've exchanged a bunch of email with the founder of OnAir about adding LMS/Squeezebox support, provided a link to the source and he's said he'll look at it.

I don't think it's quite what you were looking for, but if they add it to their current ios, android and web apps it might be interesting. I was really more hoping they'd get their kickstarter funded, but they cancelled it mid-stream and its not clear quite whats going on
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onairplayer/onair-box

I'd certainly buy a few of these as backups and eventual replacements for my Boom, Radio and touch if they fail.

poing
2014-12-31, 02:28
I thought I would pose a question to the community to generate some discussion about the future of the Squeezebox product we love.

Nice post.



On the expanding side, I am very encouraged by the development of products like Squeezelite that empowers Picoreplayer and Squeezeplug to harness the power of the incredibly malleable Raspberry Pi platform.

Agreed. Squeezelite is an amazing project. I really enjoy Squeeze On Arch, too. It allows me to run LMS (the server) on diverse hardware such as as CubieTruck.



On the contracting side, while USB DAC PC Audio is all the rage it is almost always implemented using some form of host personal computer hooked up to a DAC. I never see anyone utilizing Squeezebox based clients using LMS to accomplish the same thing in a more distributed network environment.

Well, maybe you had the audiophile community in the back of your mind when stating that. For me, a lot of that USB DAC stuff is audiophile voodoo. I know I can buy a transparent DAC for a one-digit euro or dollar amount. I prefer cheap and compact solutions which often aren't USB-based (i.e., I prefer utilizing on-board stuff such as built-in HDMI outs or small internal extension cards). Although, I know many people successfully integrate USB DACs so I think your point is a bit moot anyway.



I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems

Me, too. Perhaps companies think it's easier to generate profits from proprietary systems. The software in the Squeezebox ecosystem is free and open source. Capable, cheap, and relatively open hardware is widely available. So you cannot lock people into your brand's products like Apple and Sonos can.

---

For me, one important thing hampering the adoption of LMS is that it's not really plug-and-play. Since Logitech stopped production, you cannot simply get up and running in 10-15 minutes anymore. That's different from competing solutions where you basically hook up a stand-alone speaker or small black set-top box you bought at Best Buy or Amazon and blast away.

For many people, DIY squeezebox is way too technical. I recently set up a system for a friend. I'm almost regretting it now. I had to do all the work. Furthermore, he lacks the IT expertise to properly carry out administrative changes to LMS or the clients. Whenever there's a little problem, I'm now getting IMs or calls.

ian_heys
2014-12-31, 03:11
Hi,


I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems seem to use DLNA type technology that we all know doesn't hold a candle to the performance and features of LMS.

-CB

Don't be discouraged, as castalla says, you can have the best of both worlds with the sqeeze2upnp stand-alone programme that presents upnp/dlna renderers as squeezebox players in the server UI. Some of the devices are true audiophile if that's what you want.

A word of thanks to the developer philippe44 who has taken on the challenge of taming the variations of upnp/dlna at large in the community.

Squeese2upnp may even become a plug-in in the fulness of time.

Edit: Follow "UPNP Control Point" in the Logitech Media Server forum

Pascal Hibon
2014-12-31, 03:27
So, my question for 2015 - Is the Universe of LMS and Squeezebox expanding, contracting, or staying about the same?


Probably no one can answer that question since there are no figures available. But since Logitech killed the Squeezebox product line it is safe to assume that it will be slowly shrinking. True there are lots of great forum projects out there but how long will they be able to keep up with the ever changing world of streaming?
For me personally that is not a big issue because I mainly stream my local music. I even dropped my Spotify subscription because I didn't use it much. I still have enough players around to keep me going for a long time. So I won't be jumping ship anytime soon (and I would certainly miss the great Squeezebox features no other product has).

In regards to USB, that is possible with a Touch but also with the 3rd party hardware players. So that should not be a show stopper.




I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems seem to use DLNA type technology that we all know doesn't hold a candle to the performance and features of LMS.

-CB

Stay as far as possible from dlna. In a nutshell, it sucks big time for audio streaming. The streaming expert companies (Sonos, Squeezebox, Simple Audio and others) stay away from it for a good reason.

c2r
2014-12-31, 08:16
I'm not sure whether it's shrinking or not.... Certainly there are people out there getting rid of players, but every time any working classics come on ebay, you'd be lucky to get them for under £60, and many are selling for £80+ - similarly, working Touchs and duets seem to go for over £100. I've been slowly expanding my network of them as a result, and making use of things like squeezeplug on pi and the wolfson card to add to the estate.

The iphone style apps mean that you can use your phone as a controller now, and use some networked raspberry pis to give yourself a really cheap alternative to off the shelf home media centres. I'd reckon the number of devices out there is slightly increasing as a result, but the number of people using them is probably showing a slight decline - but that's purely speculation!

philippe_44
2014-12-31, 11:59
Stay as far as possible from dlna. In a nutshell, it sucks big time for audio streaming. The streaming expert companies (Sonos, Squeezebox, Simple Audio and others) stay away from it for a good reason.

I agree, but modestly, the app I've made allows you to use a uPNP/DLNA devices as if it was a squeezebox device. Constant audio sync is missing, but appart from that (and I agree this can be a big miss) you benefit transparently from the whole LMS environment

garym
2014-12-31, 13:02
Hard to say. The real test in my mind is when mysqueezebox.com shuts down. For me personally, this is mostly important for access to SiriusXM (my wife really likes the various Public Radio stations there). With Squeezeboxes and LMS, even without mysb.com, I can play my own music, listen to most, if not all, the internet radio streams I want, and I can try out new things or listen to one-off things via Spotify via Triode's plugin. But I know others that use their squeezeboxes with only mysqueezebox.com and no local server. Furthermore, they are using mostly Pandora. So the loss of mysb.com would be a double whammy, as I know of no other way to access Pandora without the mysb.com 'handshake', even when using one's own server.

I'm very hopeful with the ickstream development as a replacement for mysb.com. With that and LMS one can mostly continue on with the squeezeboxes and LMS. It would be very nice if they could get access to providing SiriusXM connection and Pandora connection (even if paid pandora account).

Currently, as a backup for SirusXM for my wife (and just to experiment with myself), I have a single SONOS connect that I've played with and have connected to my preamp. It's perfectly OK and easy to use, but after years of Squeezebox and LMS use it is painful to use SONOS. It can't handle my large music collection, has no ability for plugins and customization, can't deal with lots of tag issues (multiple artist and genre tags, for example), chokes on large art, etc. If I had started with SONOS I'd think it was wonderful. But if I'd been commuting with a horse & buggy, I'd love driving a 1972 Ford Pinto. But the Sonos is like moving to the Ford Pinto after having driven a BMW for years. Of course the Sonos fans will note that SONOS survived and prospered while Squeezeboxes 'failed' and are no longer produced. They are correct of course, but one only need remember that the best quality doesn't always survive (cf., Betamax vs VHS, blu-ray vs DVD-HD). In my opinion Squeezeboxes suffered from many, many bad home network setups (that were only "exposed" when one tried to use SB players). Not fair that SB's were blamed, but it is what it is.

Here's to a healthy and prosperous 2015 and a future life for all things squeezebox and LMS.

philippe_44
2014-12-31, 13:10
Currently, as a backup for SirusXM for my wife (and just to experiment with myself), I have a single SONOS connect that I've played with and have connected to my preamp. It's perfectly OK and easy to use, but after years of Squeezebox and LMS use it is painful to use SONOS. It can't handle my large music collection, has no ability for plugins and customization, can't deal with lots of tag issues (multiple artist and genre tags, for example), chokes on large art, etc. If I had started with SONOS I'd think it was wonderful. But if I'd been commuting with a horse & buggy, I'd love driving a 1972 Ford Pinto. But the Sonos is like moving to the Ford Pinto after having driven a BMW for years. Of course the Sonos fans will note that SONOS survived and prospered while Squeezeboxes 'failed' and are no longer produced. They are correct of course, but one only need remember that the best quality doesn't always survive (cf., Betamax vs VHS, blu-ray vs DVD-HD). In my opinion Squeezeboxes suffered from many, many bad home network setups (that were only "exposed" when one tried to use SB players). Not fair that SB's were blamed, but it is what it is.

Here's to a healthy and prosperous 2015 and a future life for all things squeezebox and LMS.

Still a bit of promotion (and I'll stop after that ...) but with squeeze2upnp you can have your Sonos used from LMS, transparently. it becomes just another LMS player (a squeezelite). Sonos is amongst the ones where it works the best (I have a 1, 3, 5 and a connect)

garym
2014-12-31, 13:19
Still a bit of promotion (and I'll stop after that ...) but with squeeze2upnp you can have your Sonos used from LMS, transparently. it becomes just another LMS player (a squeezelite). Sonos is amongst the ones where it works the best (I have a 1, 3, 5 and a connect)

Yes, I've been following the forum threads on this and it sounds impressive (as does your work effort to get it to this point!). The major hiccup for me is that my current setup relies upon perfect synching in several locations around my house. If you can make synching work too, then I'll be *very* excited.

philippe_44
2014-12-31, 13:25
Yes, I've been following the forum threads on this and it sounds impressive (as does your work effort to get it to this point!). The major hiccup for me is that my current setup relies upon perfect synching in several locations around my house. If you can make synching work too, then I'll be *very* excited.

Yes, I agree this is the painpoint and I'm really trying to see how I could have access to Sonos sync mechanism. But how do you do today with your connect:to get sync ? Personally, I used to plug a Touch on a play:5 and use Sonos ability to forward an analogue input to the rest of the Sonos system. That worked extremely well, but the pain is that all my Sonos devices were seen as a single squeezedevice, so I till had to alternate between Sonos GUI and LMS

garym
2014-12-31, 13:43
Yes, I agree this is the painpoint and I'm really trying to see how I could have access to Sonos sync mechanism. But how do you do today with your connect:to get sync ? Personally, I used to plug a Touch on a play:5 and use Sonos ability to forward an analogue input to the rest of the Sonos system. That worked extremely well, but the pain is that all my Sonos devices were seen as a single squeezedevice, so I till had to alternate between Sonos GUI and LMS

I actually never use the CONNECT. I bought it to play with (to see how the SONOS system worked, controller, etc.) and to make sure it was setup and working so I could make an *immediate* transition to it for my wife should I lose mysb.com on day (I'd tell her to put the preamp on a different input and go to the sonos app on her iphone and select SIRIUSXM and she'd be back in business even if I'm out of town....of course, she wouldn't have sync with other rooms but she'd have something connected to the main system). Once in a blue moon, open the controller on my PC, update the SONOS software if needed, etc.).

I never tried to sync the Connect with another Sonos (as I don't have one) and never thought about combining it with my squeezeboxes.

philippe_44
2014-12-31, 13:51
I actually never use the CONNECT. I bought it to play with (to see how the SONOS system worked, controller, etc.) and to make sure it was setup and working so I could make an *immediate* transition to it for my wife should I lose mysb.com on day (I'd tell her to put the preamp on a different input and go to the sonos app on her iphone and select SIRIUSXM and she'd be back in business even if I'm out of town....of course, she wouldn't have sync with other rooms but she'd have something connected to the main system). Once in a blue moon, open the controller on my PC, update the SONOS software if needed, etc.).

I never tried to sync the Connect with another Sonos (as I don't have one) and never thought about combining it with my squeezeboxes.

Understood. The (good) surprise for me was when I realized that feeding the output of a Squeezebox device to Sonos works (no delay) and other Sonos could be in sync as well through the connected one. Unfortunately, that did not give me the fine grain control I wanted across multiple Sonos players, hence I started that development. As said, still have not found the solution for sync in that case :(

atrocity
2014-12-31, 15:35
I don't know if SqueezeWorld is overall shrinking or expanding, but I know that I've personally set up and given or sold multiple Wandboard Quads running SoA or CSOS to friends and family. And I'm currently building another system for someone else.

JJZolx
2014-12-31, 16:17
If we're counting the number of players in use, I would guess that the number is shrinking. All of the DIY ARM and PC based players put together by users since Logitech pulled the plug on Squeeebox probably doesn't add up to a single month's worth of worldwide sales of the Touch. More and more older players are either dying or being relegated to a dusty shelf as people move on to more readily available systems that can be expanded and upgraded with new products purchased at retail.

I don't really see this changing. With as easy as it is to put together a DIY system, there's not a lot of financial incentive for anyone to develop and sell a new commercial Squeezebox. There may be a few "higher end" products that trickle out, but they'll mostly be just fancier packages for the software work being done by others, and the price points are unlikely to gain them widespread sales.

guidof
2015-01-01, 11:24
Here's to a healthy and prosperous 2015 and a future life for all things squeezebox and LMS.

+1!

badassbob
2015-01-13, 07:23
With the amount of single-board computers on the market (Raspberry Pi, UDOO, Hummingboard, Cubox, etc), I think we will be set for awhile. Now might be a good time to fork and rebrand Logitech Media Server, sans the mysqueezebox.com stuff. It's clear by now that Logitech is slowly winding down the product line, and being that LMS is open source, the community could very take it over. I've been using the Squeezebox line of products since 2004, but sold them off a couple of years ago in favor of Raspberry Pi's. At that time, those sorts of machines were still in their infancy as far as audio streaming, but with the sheer amount of development, they have become sort of mainstream among the audio community.

BenH73
2015-01-14, 18:58
I was recently asked to find a solution for a friend and found it difficult to save him much money going with Squeezebox, Raspberry Pi and Powered Speakers vs Sonos, so I suggested he go with Sonos. It probably wasn't an apples to apples comparison as the powered speakers would probably have sounded better than the Sonos, but they would have lost out on portability. If you have existing amps that you can add the Pi's to then the Squeezbox solution is viable, especially when the Sonos Connect is so overpriced, but for a plug and play solution for someone starting out then Sonos/Heos are probably more suitable.

It's good to see the some progress with upnp, but even when the syncing is sorted out I wouldn't imagine many Sonos users bothering to try it, t would only be Squeezebox fans. What are the main advantages to Squeezbox over Sonos (I ask as a squeezebox user) for the average person. The only one I can see is that it's so cheap to add to an existing amp.

Ben

poing
2015-01-15, 02:07
What are the main advantages to Squeezbox over Sonos (I ask as a squeezebox user) for the average person. The only one I can see is that it's so cheap to add to an existing amp.

The average person still plays local files as opposed to streaming music.** And, from what I've seen, the music library related stuff is implemented waay better in LMS than in Sonos' system. LMS is more efficient/better performing, offers more features, etc.

So, IMO, that is another big factor next to the one you mentioned (your point being that the Sonos:Connect is ridiculously overpriced).

---

** Spotify has 60 millions users worldwide, among them 15 million paying subscribers. Deezer has 6 millions users wordwide, Napster has 2 million, others like Wimp and Rdio are even smaller. Of course, there's internet radio, too. Still, I think it's fair to say that Average Joe plays predominantly local content.

audio53
2015-01-15, 12:20
Sonos seems to be falling behind the curve regarding hi-rez files. They still do not support 24/96. I don't necessarily care about the super hi-rez files (no advantage to my ears) , but to me 24/96 support is desirable. Obviously, this is an individual decision. But, to your question, this is a significant advantage of the Touch vs. Sonos products.

garym
2015-01-15, 12:27
Sonos seems to be falling behind the curve regarding hi-rez files. They still do not support 24/96. I don't necessarily care about the super hi-rez files (no advantage to my ears) , but to me 24/96 support is desirable. Obviously, this is an individual decision. But, to your question, this is a significant advantage of the Touch vs. Sonos products.

I'm not even sure if it supports 24/48 for example. I recall only 16/44.1. But in any case, a bigger sonos difference for me is that they don't support more than about 60,000 files (maybe a lot fewer (e.g., 45,000) if lots of metadata in tags). They don't support certain large artwork, they have a half-baked implementation of ReplayGain tags (in general, and in particular in comparison to Squeezeboxes).

markiii
2015-01-15, 12:33
isn't that because the Sonos has no equivelant of LMS to downsample?

SB environment almost doesn't care what the player can do so long as the server can transcode. For Sonos to implement hi res would mean rip and replace all the hardware

garym
2015-01-15, 12:37
isn't that because the Sonos has no equivelant of LMS to downsample?

correct. everything is built into the hardware units themselves. This is why updates to improve things are a challenge for SONOS to the extent they want to stay backwards compatible. They have a very different approach as compared with Squeezeboxes, where things can be improved with changes to the software, even with old hardware. But this may be a case of BetaMax vs VHS. The best approach doesn't always "win".

BenH73
2015-01-15, 14:09
But this may be a case of BetaMax vs VHS. The best approach doesn't always "win".

Indeed. Except the difference here is that there are enthusiasts still updating the open source software and it works on a variety of hardware, so the chance of survival is good, but I doubt it will become mainstream again.

I have a nice little collection of things that have "lost" - HD-DVD, HP webOS Touchpad/Phone, Squeezebox Touch. I did buy the HD-DVD and webOS stuff after they lost, so very cheaply and the Squeezebox Touch is probably worth more now than I paid for it new.

Thanks all for the opinions on the advantages, but I'm afraid not many are relevant to the average person. I don't think they care about hi-res, when mp3's are enough and 60K tracks is quite a collection.

Ben

NikolajC
2015-01-16, 12:15
I'm thinking that it's not completely out of the picture that Logitech is considering reintroducing the Squeezebox line again? I mean every company and their mother come out with streaming solutions - why not be a part of that again?

garym
2015-01-16, 12:35
I'm thinking that it's not completely out of the picture that Logitech is considering reintroducing the Squeezebox line again? I mean every company and their mother come out with streaming solutions - why not be a part of that again?

one can always dream. I'd love a TOUCH II and a BOOM II myself. But I don't have a lot of faith in the management decision making of Logitech (unlike the excellent faith I have in the engineering side of things).

justwords
2015-01-18, 12:32
Currently, i use lms and a bunch of squeezeboxes (5 x radio, 1 x boom, 2 x receiver) for my family so that every child can access napster. The speciality is that the account is accessed via mysqueezebox and lms. Will this work if mysqueezebox.com may shut down? Without streaming service, the whole squeezebox-system would not work for me? With spotify only one squeezebox can access the streaming service at one time. That would be a nogo for a family entertainment system. how would deezer and wimp work without mysqueezebox.com?

remd
2015-01-18, 13:53
how would deezer and wimp work without mysqueezebox.com?

You can use ickStream to access Deezer or WiMP:
http://wiki.ickstream.com/index.php/Open_Beta_Squeezebox

chrissy
2015-01-22, 07:30
I am also discouraged that pretty much all of the proprietary music server systems seem to use DLNA type technology that we all know doesn't hold a candle to the performance and features of LMS. This, despite many of these systems being no more than customized Linux computers. Is there any reason other manufacturers cannot implement LMS/Squeezebox support into their own products the way open source applications already do? Every time I see a new proprietary music server solution (usually at a high cost) I feel it is always reinventing the wheel and solving problems that have already been solved by LMS?


Hi,

I guess there is a simple reason: You can't earn money with it. Look at the SOtM sMS-100 . It is priced as high as 499€ here in Germany and nothing more than a raspie with pi-coreplayer you can buy for 60€. If you take a cubie +2 tb Disk, you pay about 200€ and have a complete server player system with more diskspace than you probably ever need for music. How should a commercial company compete with prices like this?

I don`t think people will pay that much just for a fancy case and the installation service.

What we can do to expand is spread it all over!! My Girlfriend now has a raspie as player, a cubie as server and player and a SB-Radio. She loves it and has no problems using it. I wrote an article in a german tube forum and may people got a cubie after this.

So if we all spread the potential of the squeeze universe, we will be on the expanding side.

Greetings
Chris

Pascal Hibon
2015-01-22, 08:13
I guess there is a simple reason: You can't earn money with it. Look at the SOtM sMS-100 . It is priced as high as 499€ here in Germany and nothing more than a raspie with pi-coreplayer you can buy for 60€. If you take a cubie +2 tb Disk, you pay about 200€ and have a complete server player system with more diskspace than you probably ever need for music. How should a commercial company compete with prices like this?

I don`t think people will pay that much just for a fancy case and the installation service.


I believe you need to make a distinguish between technical knowledgeable customers and customers without technical knowledge.
For sure, those of us who are able to get a Pi or whatever hardware running as a streamer won't pay that kind of money. But there are far more customers out there who can't do that. It are these people who will pay a premium for a streamer.
So, there sure would be a possible market for a "Squeezebox client" like product if LMS wouldn't be a requirement. The LMS part is yet another reason why it doesn't happen. Apart from the possible technical challenges of having to setup an LMS server (again a certain level of technical knowledge required) there is still the fact that LMS is an End Of Live product. There is no sane manufacture out there who will design and produce a product based up on an EOL product (which they even do not own). The financial risks are way to high.

doctor_big
2015-01-31, 09:50
There is no sane manufacture out there who will design and produce a product based up on an EOL product (which they even do not own). The financial risks are way to high.

Bryston has included squeezelite in their BDP2 streamer. The product is outrageously e pensive considering what it is, but maybe it's a turnaround for the SB...

Jason

Pascal Hibon
2015-01-31, 12:14
Bryston has included squeezelite in their BDP2 streamer. The product is outrageously e pensive considering what it is, but maybe it's a turnaround for the SB...

Jason

Glanced at the manual. They have indeed included Squeezelite but that's not a Logitech product. So it isn't based on any Logitech product or code.
Besides Squeezelite, the BDP2 supports other player protocols too.

doctor_big
2015-01-31, 13:30
Glanced at the manual. They have indeed included Squeezelite but that's not a Logitech product. So it isn't based on any Logitech product or code.
Besides Squeezelite, the BDP2 supports other player protocols too.
Obviously it's not a Logitech product. But the BDP2 is still a commercial product that fits into the LMS/SB ecosystem. It's a good sign.

Jason.

Lem
2015-01-31, 13:33
I believe you need to make a distinguish between technical knowledgeable customers and customers without technical knowledge.
For sure, those of us who are able to get a Pi or whatever hardware running as a streamer won't pay that kind of money. But there are far more customers out there who can't do that. It are these people who will pay a premium for a streamer.
So, there sure would be a possible market for a "Squeezebox client" like product if LMS wouldn't be a requirement. The LMS part is yet another reason why it doesn't happen. Apart from the possible technical challenges of having to setup an LMS server (again a certain level of technical knowledge required) there is still the fact that LMS is an End Of Live product. There is no sane manufacture out there who will design and produce a product based up on an EOL product (which they even do not own). The financial risks are way to high.

The bulk of LMS is open source is it not (from the old Slim Devices days)?, and still being developed upon by users of this very forum.. I don't see why it would be such an issue if you were to bundle LMS into a streamer.

JJZolx
2015-01-31, 13:45
But the BDP2 is still a commercial product that fits into the LMS/SB ecosystem. It's a good sign.


The Bryston BDP2 is a horribly overpriced box containing an off-the-shelf Atom motherboard running Linux. They tossed Squeezelite on it as an afterthought. Because they could. I wouldn't read too much into it.

JJZolx
2015-01-31, 13:47
The bulk of LMS is open source is it not (from the old Slim Devices days)?, and still being developed upon by users of this very forum.. I don't see why it would be such an issue if you were to bundle LMS into a streamer.

Somebody with some balls and a little moral integrity should start a community Squeezebox project to build a Squeezebox knockoff.

d6jg
2015-01-31, 14:30
I believe there is a market for a mid priced non-techie player but I don't think it would be commercially viable unless it could handle LMS & DLNA.
I have a Pi but aesthetically it isn't a Touch or an SB3 so I can't site it in my Living Room set up. It's WAF is far too low!

JJZolx
2015-01-31, 14:40
I believe there is a market for a mid priced non-techie player but I don't think it would be commercially viable unless it could handle LMS & DLNA.
I have a Pi but aesthetically it isn't a Touch or an SB3 so I can't site it in my Living Room set up. It's WAF is far too low!

Hide the damned thing behind some equipment. It doesn't have any kind of user interface, does it?

Pascal Hibon
2015-02-01, 02:01
The bulk of LMS is open source is it not (from the old Slim Devices days)?, and still being developed upon by users of this very forum.. I don't see why it would be such an issue if you were to bundle LMS into a streamer.

For a DIY'er it is not a big deal. For a company it is a very big deal because the future is unsure and there is not guaranteed support. Bringing a product to market is very time consuming and expensive. That's why no commercial company will ever build a product based upon LMS.

mherger
2015-02-01, 02:49
> For a DIY'er it is not a big deal. For a company it is a very big deal
> because the future is unsure and there is not guaranteed support.

It's unsure, unless they decide not only to take advantage of the free
software provided by some guys out there, but to contribute to it,
helping to keep it alive.

> Bringing a product to market is very time consuming and expensive.
> That's why no commercial company will ever build a product based upon
> LMS.

There are such products. None I'd know of hugely popular or successful
in the mass market. But there are (mostly expensive) commercial products
based on LMS with thousands of installations.

--

Michael

JJZolx
2015-02-01, 03:09
For Bryston, installing Squeezelite, which they didn't pay a penny to develop, on the BDP-2, with its bog-standard motherboard running Linux, is a pretty low risk proposition. They didn't develop the system to be a Squeezebox emulator; it's an afterthought. It may generate a few additional support calls from their clientele, but they're charging $3000 for the thing, which doesn't even contain a DAC, so they can afford the support.

Squeezemenicely
2015-02-01, 03:21
For Bryston, installing Squeezelite, which they didn't pay a penny to develop, on the BDP-2, with its bog-standard motherboard running Linux, is a pretty low risk proposition.

Wow, so the BDP-2 is simply a Squeezelite player on a sort of Raspberry card in an elegant case?!? Not bad.

JJZolx
2015-02-01, 04:05
Wow, so the BDP-2 is simply a Squeezelite player on a sort of Raspberry card in an elegant case?!? Not bad.

Not really a player. It has only digital outputs, so requires a DAC. For just $3000 you can't have everything. :rolleyes:

Pascal Hibon
2015-02-01, 04:21
For Bryston, installing Squeezelite, which they didn't pay a penny to develop, on the BDP-2, with its bog-standard motherboard running Linux, is a pretty low risk proposition. They didn't develop the system to be a Squeezebox emulator; it's an afterthought. It may generate a few additional support calls from their clientele, but they're charging $3000 for the thing, which doesn't even contain a DAC, so they can afford the support.

True they didn't pay for the development of Squeezelite. But they sure paid a lot for bringing it to market. Design, production and certification of a product is very expensive, hence the huge price tag of the Bryston device.

Mnyb
2015-02-01, 04:28
The LMS compatibility is not even mentioned on brystons website ? it's ofcourse very easy to add just install squeezelite . Is the whole LMS server also preinstalled ? it can use external storage and play files from usb sticks and hard drives .
The manual mentiosn MPD as the player .

The price is very telling of the cost of high end, a nice box and overdesigned powersupply is probably the majority of the price . Kind of interesting if you do box count in a typical high end rig every function in a separate box :D
And the risk premuim , what if the audio rags hype another brand next year ? You must have really high margins to stay profitable in high end audio over an extended period .

Thats why it's a bit stupid that they don’t put a DAC in it ,they got the box and the power supply adding another board wont make much more expensive, but of course they want to sell another box to you...

JJZolx
2015-02-01, 04:42
The LMS compatibility is not even mentioned on brystons website ? it's ofcourse very easy to add just install squeezelite . Is the whole LMS server also preinstalled ? it can use external storage and play files from usb sticks and hard drives .
The manual mentiosn MPD as the player .

I would assume the USB storage isn't usable from the Squeezebox player software that they have installed, only from their standard player software. As you say, that would also require the internal computer to be running LMS.

This is the only mention of LMS from the BDP-2 manual. It may be that Squeezelite was added only as a stopgap for people buying their $3000 device only to find that it can't even stream Internet radio.



bRadio: Internet Radio

Though it is currently not possible to match the sound quality of your own music collection with streamed music from the internet, online radio stations can provide an endless stream of music for casual or background listening. Bryston is currently developing an interface specifically for browsing a wealth of internet radio stations.

In the mean time, the best way to listen to internet radio is by enabling Squeezelite in Settings:Services, and installing Logitech Media Server on your computer.

Logitech Media Server provides a web user interface which provides access to a broad list of internet radio options. There are also a wide variety of free remotes for Android and iOS.

Pascal Hibon
2015-02-01, 04:44
It's unsure, unless they decide not only to take advantage of the free
software provided by some guys out there, but to contribute to it,
helping to keep it alive.


That would be nice Michael. But honestly, that is just wishful thinking. The software is open source and so a company's efforts would be available to everyone and for free. Not a good business plan for a commercial company.

Mnyb
2015-02-01, 04:58
Ok then have Bryston contributed anything towards LMS or mysqueezebox.com ?

d6jg
2015-02-01, 05:22
Aren't virtually all DLNA servers also open source? For me there would be commercial viability only if a player supported both LMS and DLNA. We'd all use it with LMS but a chunk of people (majority?) would opt for DLNA.
I can't help wondering whether Logitech might jump back on board - they must be peed off that they jumped out just as Sonos jumped in - it's consumer electronics after all. It might explain the "legal" issues.

Squeezemenicely
2015-02-01, 12:10
Logitech might jump back on board - they must be peed off that they jumped out just as Sonos jumped in - it's consumer electronics after all.

Well Sonos was around quite a while before Logitech jumped out. But the biggest trouble was that Squeezebox was simply there much too early for consumers. Only really since streaming services as Spotify started has the market for streaming / file players begun to evolve. Before it was a tiny niche market, now it seems like everyone wants a piece of the cake and everybody is interested in these products.


A stupid time to stop the Squeeze product line. They should have waited a bit and actually brought new products out and not only the sort of kitchen radio the UE Radio was.


A great shame. There is no system that can compete with Squeeze - well maybe Volumio... Sonos has it's merrits, but it aint no Squeeze.

Therefore our homemade players are really amongst the best streaming players around - also cheaper than Raumfeld and all those other streaming players.
So a Receiver we have with these players, what we need is a homemade Boom ;-)

Cleve
2015-02-08, 11:33
How much longer does the group think Mysqueezebox.com last? I've had my SB3 since just after they were introduced. I don't run the Media Server all the time, and I frequently connect directly to the internet via Mysqueezebox.com. I've looked at what's on the market right now (for replacement players) and they don't seem as elegant and versatile as SB3.

Not only that, but eventually with some new iteration of Windows, the Media Server software won't be compatible with future operating systems.

As others have said, Squeezebox threw in the towel too soon. It would be a great market for Squeezebox now, I think.

garym
2015-02-08, 16:23
How much longer does the group think Mysqueezebox.com last?

No one can possibly know. The good news is that the ickstream project is beginning to provide a cloud platform that could replace mysb.com and keep Squeezeboxes alive. As far as I know they don't yet have pandora or siriusXM working, but they do have some other services.

cathcam
2015-02-08, 20:50
Not only that, but eventually with some new iteration of Windows, the Media Server software won't be compatible with future operating systems.

As others have said, Squeezebox threw in the towel too soon. It would be a great market for Squeezebox now, I think.

Well the great thing about opensource is it can be fixed. While I don't have time to learn the whole SQ infrastructure, I for one have some 25-years programming experience, I typically don't code in perl but can. In a couple of years I will be retired with enough time on my hands to give back to this great project. There are many others I'm sure.

The down side is its all too complex, which is the up side for those of us here. We can get it to do almost anything. Unless the server and clients are dumbed down and made much easier, it will always be a hard sell except for music aficionados. Logitech tried to dumb down the Squeeze radio with the UAE, and we all complained... and were delighted when we could turn them back into a Squeeze radio.

The first I'm most interested in is a SB Touch like device with quality audio components, and a good(low noise) power supply. If you doesn't exist by the time I retire, I might have a go, I have all the design and manufacturing contacts...

Esel2k
2015-02-09, 05:57
Well Sonos was around quite a while before Logitech jumped out. But the biggest trouble was that Squeezebox was simply there much too early for consumers. Only really since streaming services as Spotify started has the market for streaming / file players begun to evolve. Before it was a tiny niche market, now it seems like everyone wants a piece of the cake and everybody is interested in these products.


I totally agree with that, since streaming services started and the predictions (ok just a prediction) seems that it will exploded in users.
17323

Now this market needs the device to play that. On the phone they have the apps. But at home? The market is very attractive, but you need to make your costumer pay monthly fees to make big money.

This image come from this article that apple now start music streaming. So there must be a huge market to gain, as soon as you catch cour costumer to subscribe to your service.

If now apples starts to bring out some players (just some thoughts...) and limit their streaming service only to their players (for which they are know for: Airplay, etc), I could see the future of home audio beeing tied to some subscription plan only and stuff like LMS just not be a attractive market anymore...

Your thoughts?

castalla
2015-02-09, 06:19
I totally agree with that, since streaming services started and the predictions (ok just a prediction) seems that it will exploded in users.
17323

Now this market needs the device to play that. On the phone they have the apps. But at home? The market is very attractive, but you need to make your costumer pay monthly fees to make big money.

This image come from this article that apple now start music streaming. So there must be a huge market to gain, as soon as you catch cour costumer to subscribe to your service.

If now apples starts to bring out some players (just some thoughts...) and limit their streaming service only to their players (for which they are know for: Airplay, etc), I could see the future of home audio beeing tied to some subscription plan only and stuff like LMS just not be a attractive market anymore...

Your thoughts?

Users who simply buy a device at the supermarket will likely end up as subscribers to whatever services are tied to their devices.

Squeezebox is different - it offers a mix of subscription and non-sub services. Logitech screwed up by failing to recognise the strengths of their audio products and got distracted by mice, keyboards, etc.

JJZolx
2015-02-09, 08:10
Other than possibly the Radio, the Squeezebox players were all too pricey to gain much of a foothold in the market of consumers who were interested in only music streaming services. If the SB were introduced today, it would flop even worse due to all of the competition in the market.

In fact, a focus on streaming services may be the very reason the SB flopped. Logitech seemed to spend an inordinate amount of development time and money supporting every little streaming service that popped up. It appeared to be marketing's main focus as well.

cathcam
2015-02-09, 15:43
Other than possibly the Radio, the Squeezebox players were all too pricey to gain much of a foothold in the market of consumers who were interested in only music streaming services. If the SB were introduced today, it would flop even worse due to all of the competition in the market.

In fact, a focus on streaming services may be the very reason the SB flopped. Logitech seemed to spend an inordinate amount of development time and money supporting every little streaming service that popped up. It appeared to be marketing's main focus as well.

and too complicated. I've removed almost everything I can off the menus on my radio that is in the guest room. It's got search, sync, my music and thats about it. I tell visitors to search for their favorite radio stations and press and hold the channel buttons just like the car.

Now I have my local LMS upto 7.9 from 7.7 avoids the old, "I don't know what I did, but its started to update the firmware" discussion

castalla
2015-02-09, 15:55
and too complicated. I've removed almost everything I can off the menus on my radio that is in the guest room. It's got search, sync, my music and thats about it. I tell visitors to search for their favorite radio stations and press and hold the channel buttons just like the car.

Now I have my local LMS upto 7.9 from 7.7 avoids the old, "I don't know what I did, but its started to update the firmware" discussion

I don't think SBs are any more complicated than other internet radio devices - the facility to customise the menus is a big plus.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2015-02-27, 02:30
Users who simply buy a device at the supermarket will likely end up as subscribers to whatever services are tied to their devices.

Squeezebox is different - it offers a mix of subscription and non-sub services. Logitech screwed up by failing to recognise the strengths of their audio products and got distracted by mice, keyboards, etc.
Well unless you know what their sales were like ,you have no idea whether it was a good decision by Logitech to discontinue the line .

poing
2015-02-27, 03:01
Well unless you know what their sales were like ,you have no idea whether it was a good decision by Logitech to discontinue the line .
There sales at the time probably weren't the most important factor. I presume what mattered to them were their expectation of (i) *future* sales and their expectation of (ii) *future* costs.

Even if their decision to discontinue Squeezebox was correct at the time (which is debatable), it certainly seems their decision was incorrect ex post (i.e., from today's perspective): They left the market just as it began to explode. And they had a great technology, audiophile credentials, etc. in place. All that was missing from their product line was a standalone speaker/player combo a la Sonos Play:1 or Play:3.

Mnyb
2015-02-27, 05:37
I have felling/speculation that they expected much more of it to fast .

Shortsigthed they proably wanted to use resources on projects who could deliver faster .

Logitech sells mouses and keayboards in the millions .

It must have been resonably profitable at a limited niche scale but they must have expected it to be an instant goldmine .

I doubt logitechs ability to support software driven products , they usually sells tuff in boxes at the supermarket .

toby10
2015-02-27, 05:57
Mnyb, exactly! It's not that Logitech got distracted selling mice/keyboards that brought the demise of SB, rather that they thought the SqueezeBox product could be sold along side their core business.... which is mice/keyboards. SB likely got axed because it became a distraction from their real core biz. The right people with the right implementation could have succeeded in marketing SB along side their core products. The big re-shuffle of Logitech personnel shortly after they acquired SB likely moved out the right people. Sounds like the right people were there, then got booted or moved. Very sad. :(

poing
2015-02-27, 06:26
(Computer) speakers are part of Logitech's core business, too. And recall that Logitech got big through *wireless* keyboards and mice. Squeezeboxes are wireless audio products. As such, they fit reasonably well in Logitech's product portfolio.

Anyways, I think that nowadays, people want two features in a speaker. First, they want it to be portable so that you put it in the kitchen or on the balcony without hassle. Second, they want it to be networked. Of course, bluetooth/smartphone connectivity is a biggie. But again, sync and uPnP-style stuff is really taking off, too. Not just Sonos, but almost every big player -- Pio, Sony, Denon, you name it -- is in that game by now. And wireless speakers are becoming more similar to off-the-shelf items like computer mice.

I suppose the UE Boom line is going well for them but I bet they're losing revenues with a lot of their other audio-related products. I think right now, an active speaker with Squeezebox-like functionality would make a lot of sense for them.

jimmypowder
2015-02-27, 06:29
There sales at the time probably weren't the most important factor. I presume what mattered to them were their expectation of (i) *future* sales and their expectation of (ii) *future* costs. Even if their decision to discontinue Squeezebox was correct at the time (which is debatable), it certainly seems their decision was incorrect ex post (i.e., from today's perspective): They left the market just as it began to explode. And they had a great technology, audiophile credentials, etc. in place. All that was missing from their product line was a standalone speaker/player combo a la Sonos Play:1 or Play:3.


I wonder really how large the market is for streaming music from your computer . None of my friends have a clue about doing this so I'm
guessing the market is fairly small and geared towards audiophiles . A minority for sure . Most are happy with Airplay ( they do know about that )
but if they see SB Touch they have no clue what it is , let alone a Transporter , but they sure think the analog meter is pretty cool .
Some of these folks that have no clue about computer music streaming have pretty good stereo equipment too .

pgershon
2015-09-25, 09:54
I wonder really how large the market is for streaming music from your computer . None of my friends have a clue about doing this so I'm
guessing the market is fairly small and geared towards audiophiles . A minority for sure . Most are happy with Airplay ( they do know about that )
but if they see SB Touch they have no clue what it is , let alone a Transporter , but they sure think the analog meter is pretty cool .
Some of these folks that have no clue about computer music streaming have pretty good stereo equipment too .

Not sure if still life to they thread, but with Logitech casting off SiriusXM as of Sept 30, are there alternatives yet to squeezebox.com?

garym
2015-09-25, 09:58
Not sure if still life to they thread, but with Logitech casting off SiriusXM as of Sept 30, are there alternatives yet to squeezebox.com?

Ickstream. In beta.

djfake
2015-09-28, 09:47
Hi to reply to original post, Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry are the new Squeezeboxes. Very cheap but sound very good! And running PiCorePlayer is an absolute breeze. Long may LMS live!