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Jeff_G
2014-10-06, 05:10
As much as I like the SB3, I will need to replace it because it will not play 96/24 files.
However, Iím having a real problem finding a network player that would have such a good interface as the Squeezebox has on my android. I do not use the remote or my laptop, only my android phone.

Artwork, I need artwork for albums otherwise I will never find the albums Iím looking for.
The fact that the albums are in release order is also a plus, I can easily choose whether I want earlier or later albums without thinking about it.

The SB3 also supports .cue flac files which I need from my future network player.

Radio, I listen to internet radio a lot and the SB is great. In most cases there is an icon next to the station name, which is great because I do not need to read the station names.
When the radio is playing, in a lot of cases, I will see the artwork for the album, artist name and album name, hence no need to use Shazam to find out the artist.

The big display is great because I can read across the room what is currently playing, but I do realize that this is something I will not have with a network player, a great android app would be good enough.

I am certain that there is no way that I will get a network player for £200 which the SB3 cost me years ago so I am looking for a player up to £1000 but failing to find a good one.
I had the Stream Magic 6 for testing and I didnít like it. The app may be good for someone who never used a network player before or never had a good app like the SB. And it didnít play .cue flac files.

Any suggestions?

jeremy
2014-10-06, 05:44
Stay with LMS and get either a Squeezebox Touch (some new still to be found and plenty second hand) or a s/h Transporter

Either will leave you with plenty of change from a £1000 budget

Third option but without integral display - build a player Raspberry Pi for c£120 and spend the rest on a tablet to use as controller & display

garym
2014-10-06, 06:02
agree. best bet it to acquire a used SB TOUCH. 24/96 is standard (and with the EDO plugin can even handle 24/192) and works with the LMS system you already have. Squeezeboxes and what is now called LMS were way ahead of their time. I follow this issue and I haven't seen a commercial replacement for squeezeboxes available AT ANY PRICE.

Jeff_G
2014-10-06, 09:15
I've looked at the prices in the UK, a new one £500+, second hand, not sure, there are some on eBay and they all close on Sunday.
I just came across Simple Audio:
http://www.simpleaudio.com/all-products/roomplayer-models/roomplayer
Although I'm not sure whether they have an app for android, I'll have to have a look into it and read some reviews when I get home.

RonM
2014-10-06, 09:46
There's a new never-used original Transporter (with the knob) on ebay right now at http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Logitech-Transporter-Network-Music-Player-With-Transnav-Knob-BEST-EVER-/361065246704?pt=US_Internet_Media_Streamers&hash=item54112a6ff0.

US$1200, strikes me as a better deal than the $700 Touches out there.

Ships worldwide.

R.

RonM
2014-10-06, 09:52
Also a Transporter SE (without the knob) for $999.99, also will ship internationally.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Logitech-Transporter-SE-Network-Music-Player-Without-Transnav-Knob/261576764460?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D25217%26meid%3Da5680c96d7684131a87d9ff2c1de efae%26pid%3D100009%26prg%3D10629%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3 D4%26

jeremy
2014-10-06, 10:04
+1 for Transporter. Been very happy with mine. Knob unimportant in my view, mine has one but don't use it much and could happily do without.

garym
2014-10-06, 11:38
+1 for Transporter. Been very happy with mine. Knob unimportant in my view, mine has one but don't use it much and could happily do without.

Love my transporter. It has a knob, but I've probably used the knob 3 times in 6 years. Maybe not even that much.

Jeff_G
2014-10-06, 13:41
I think I might just go for the Transporter!
Although I do have a few questions before I go for it.

1. I will only use my phone, so I'm guessing the one without the knob will do just fine. Same unit, same internals etc.?
2. Does it sound much better than the SB3?
3. What is the highest resolution it will play? 192/24?
4. I'm using Synology DiskStation because that has LMS and I do not have to have my computer switched on. I'm guessing LMS is the same for all SlimDevices/Logitech units and it should work straight out of the box?
5. If I remember correctly, I had to register and enter my email and password when I was setting the SB3 up. Is there anything like this? Because the email no longer exists and I don't remember the password either.

jeremy
2014-10-06, 13:46
1 yes
2 very yes
3 24/96
4 yes
5 you can register new email

garym
2014-10-06, 13:48
I think I might just go for the Transporter!
Although I do have a few questions before I go for it.

1. I will only use my phone, so I'm guessing the one without the knob will do just fine. Same unit, same internals etc.?
2. Does it sound much better than the SB3?
3. What is the highest resolution it will play? 192/24?
4. I'm using Synology DiskStation because that has LMS and I do not have to have my computer switched on. I'm guessing LMS is the same for all SlimDevices/Logitech units and it should work straight out of the box?
5. If I remember correctly, I had to register and enter my email and password when I was setting the SB3 up. Is there anything like this? Because the email no longer exists and I don't remember the password either.

1. yes, same unit, same internals. I control with my iphone, ipad, or laptop computer. I don't ever touch the transporter at all.
2. hard to say, it has higher quality internal components, a very good DAC, and has balanced analog outputs in addition to unbalanced analog outs. Whether it sounds better. Not sure, I haven't done a double blind test.
3. 24/96 only. And the EDO applet for the TOUCH won't work on the Transporter. So max 24/96.
4. Yes, LMS works for any SB players, including transporter
5. you can skip the userid/pw if you don't want to be integrated with mysqueezebox.com (you won't be able to use pandora or siriusXM, etc.)

Jeff_G
2014-10-06, 14:54
Shame that it won't play higher than 96Khz. Although, I don't think I have anything that is above 96. The touch would be more future proof.
I'm very tempted, but the import charges USD 224 are putting me off.

kesey
2014-10-06, 15:18
Shame that it won't play higher than 96Khz. Although, I don't think I have anything that is above 96. The touch would be more future proof.
I'm very tempted, but the import charges USD 224 are putting me off.

Why not buy a Wandboard and a decent USB DAC? Not necessarily an expensive one. You'll then be set up to play up to 24 bit/192 kHz using Squeezelite and LMS.

garym
2014-10-06, 15:18
Shame that it won't play higher than 96Khz. Although, I don't think I have anything that is above 96. The touch would be more future proof.
I'm very tempted, but the import charges USD 224 are putting me off.

I rarely buy Hires tracks, but when I do, I only buy the 24/96. It's overkill to begin with and 24/192 is definitely overkill. It's never about the bitrate on lossless files. It's about the mastering of the recording (and that is something that can be improved-- see loudness wars....!)

https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Jeff_G
2014-10-06, 16:17
Wanboard? I googled it but as I am not so technically minded it doesn't mean much to me. I need to use my phone to select the music and radios from the Synology DiskStation.

I'm not so fussed about 192/24. I think 98/24 is more than enough. It would be nice to have it if people decide to use it in future but I can live without it.
I've found this upgrade: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/upgrades/squeezebox/squeezebox-classic-sb3/
Again, it doesn't mean much to me. I'll call the guy tomorrow and see if the SB3 would play 96/24

wortgefecht
2014-10-06, 16:28
I've found this upgrade: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/upgrades/squeezebox/squeezebox-classic-sb3/

Sorry in advance for going off-topic: The above linked service claims, that their updates "reign in the overly aggressive treble and upper mid band peaks + adding extra weight to the bass and a superb foot tapping flow to the music" of Classic, Duet, Touch, and Transporter (each update is £220+, Transporter £750; at least they are more or les transparent on what components they replace).

"Aggressive treble and upper mid band peaks"? Apart from the generic "audiophile" gibberish--maybe it's my amateur hearing, but I do not here these. Anyone?

Mnyb
2014-10-06, 17:41
Wanboard? I googled it but as I am not so technically minded it doesn't mean much to me. I need to use my phone to select the music and radios from the Synology DiskStation.

I'm not so fussed about 192/24. I think 98/24 is more than enough. It would be nice to have it if people decide to use it in future but I can live without it.
I've found this upgrade: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/upgrades/squeezebox/squeezebox-classic-sb3/
Again, it doesn't mean much to me. I'll call the guy tomorrow and see if the SB3 would play 96/24

The SB3 can never do 24/96 the computer part of it can't handle it .

It it sounds a little sales gibberish talk to me these upgrades. A good thing would be to leave any squeezebox alone and connect a very good DAC if you need better . you can do that to your SB3 or a Touch or possible a Transporter if needed or one of these mini computer based player like squeeze plug or similar that other members are building RasPI odroid ? Or what they use :) sorry I'm not up to speed on the latest DIY squeezebox ( there are many of those )

And actually if you run LMS on sufficiently powerful server/PC/NAS/laptop/whatever it transcodes any file the player can't handle to something it can handle so the the 24/48 limit of a SB3 does not really limit you ! You can enjoy any music file anyway .
Unless you really need to run the server on something that does not do transcoding.

In fact using 7.9 you can even use DSD files on any squeezebox , not natively but the server does it .

GeeJay
2014-10-06, 19:04
Wanboard? I googled it but as I am not so technically minded it doesn't mean much to me. I need to use my phone to select the music and radios from the Synology DiskStation.


I'm not technically minded, either, but have been monitoring the board for developments in this regard, hoping that someone will offer me a simple roadmap that even a non-techie can follow. This is the closest I've been able to find so far:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?102058-I-want-to-build-a-Squeeze-player

Jeff_G
2014-10-07, 02:28
Hmm, adding import charges, realising that buying from the US the tax will be also added... it all adds up.

I bought Synology DiskStation because that comes with LMS. I wonder whether I could connect the DiskStation and a DAC and play the 96/24 leaving the SB3 out completely, only using the LMS?
When I connect the DAC to my laptop (LMS not installed on the laptop) via USB, it installs the driver and I can play it. But when I connect the DAC to the NAS I can't. I should be able to do it, shouldn't I?
I wouldn't have the comfort of using my phone for selecting music, but for the very few 96/24 albums I have, I would settle for selecting the music using my laptop on the NAS for the time being.

DJanGo
2014-10-07, 03:06
But when I connect the DAC to the NAS I can't. I should be able to do it, shouldn't I?

No

LMS is Server only you may can add a player to but not under a NAS with NAS Firmware.
And no doesnt make sense.
Overkill like 96/24 and smaljoekitchen like LMS on a NAS.

dafiend
2014-10-07, 03:57
2. Does it sound much better than the SB3?
Probably not. Digital audio conversion is basically a solved problem and has been a solved problem at the time the SB3 was released. All properly designed DACs should be transparent (i.e., sound the same).

Of course, in certain scenarios, you may find audible differences in a double-blind test. But your default assumption (and null hypothesis in a formal test) should be that all DACs sound the same.

---

Personally, I think the transporter is way overpriced. But people's tastes differ. If you're looking for an all-in-one unit which just works out of the box and has an appealing design, the Transporter may be for you.

Myself, I'd rather go for a small headless computer (decent configs start around 100 EUR/GBP/USD) and spend the rest of the money on something else. Maybe a nice tablet as a display and controller. Of course, the small headless computers don't meet all the requirements you laid out in the first post. They don't have an internal display. But you can have a tablet for that. (Strictly speaking, it's possible to add a display to various tiny computers but the installation is somewhat tedious and more of a thing for hackers/DIYers.)

pablolie
2014-10-07, 07:12
".. All properly designed DACs should be transparent (i.e., sound the same). .."


I hope you are not including the ones provided in every computer, smartphone or tablet as part of those. There are plenty of poorly or cheaply designed DACs out there, then.... :-)

I agree that there are chipsets out there that prolly provide all the resolution we'll ever be able to hear, but their environment still need to be designed with care and without taking too many shortcuts.

But I have to say, considering the fact the DAC2 in my main system is over 12x the cost of the little AE D1 in my computer setup, I am amazed by the sound of the latter every day. But the latter also shows how a properly designed DAC absolutely murders the cheap, built-in DAC in a standard computer motherboard.

...paul

dafiend
2014-10-07, 07:46
I hope you are not including the ones provided in every computer, smartphone or tablet as part of those. There are plenty of poorly or cheaply designed DACs out there, then.... :-)

There exist many tiny and cheap devices which perform excellently both objectively (as measured by something like an RMAA test) as well as subjectively (properly conducted double-blind listening tests). An example is the Sansa Clip series of players. I believe Smartphone DACs have gotten a lot better, too. I haven't done much testing myself, but objective tests on sites such as Anandtech make it likely many of the latest flagships (iPhone 6, HTC One M8, Galaxy S5) are transparent.

There are many onboard codecs which measure and test excellently. Same goes for the DACs in cheap, off the shelf Blu Ray player and AV receivers. Yes, there are badly built soundcards out there. And, sometimes, such as in the Raspberry Pi, you find codecs which are outright primitive.

But there are many DACs that cost below $5 which are transparent.



But I have to say, considering the fact the DAC2 in my main system is over 12x the cost of the little AE D1 in my computer setup, I am amazed by the sound of the latter every day. But the latter also shows how a properly designed DAC absolutely murders the cheap, built-in DAC in a standard computer motherboard.
The Benchmark DACs don't sound better than some cheap DACs found in PC motherboards. Transparent is transparent. The Benchmark DACs have their advantages, but sound quality is not one of them (at least not in the consumer-type application the OP requires). Your perceived difference in sound quality is likely a placebo effect.

Yes, your Benchmark DAC likely measures better than many other gear, but there's a point where differences are too small to be perceived by human hearing. Once again, mainstream devices have crossed that point quite some time ago.

Jeff_G
2014-10-07, 07:51
I do not know anything about DACs.
What I know, is I tried two, Arcam irDAC and Audiolab M-DAC. I couldnít tell any difference when my SB3 was connected to them.

However, I used to have my SB3 connected to an old NAD amplifier. When I tried Stream Magic 6 with the old NAD, the sound was much better than the SB3.
I had a Roksan K2 amplifier out for testing and when I connected the SB3 to it, it sounded fantastic, better than the Stream Magic/NAD combination.
When I connected the Stream Magic 6 to the Roksan amplifier it didnít sound any different to the SB3.
Hence I returned the Stream Magic 6 and kept the Roksan.
So I guess a good amplifier plays a big role, more than a Ďgreatí DAC.
Perhaps if I tried SB3/DAC/NAD I would hear the improvement.

As for my search to find something to play at least the 96/24, Iím going against the Transporter now. With added tax, import tax and postage I would end up paying over £900. Probably the SB Touch would be wiser choice even though the price is double, £500 in the UK.

dafiend
2014-10-07, 08:13
Probably the SB Touch would be wiser choice even though the price is double, £500 in the UK.
That I find still extremely steep.

You said you are not a techie. But you could still by one of those mini computers pre-assembled and fully configured. For example, here's a HiFiBerry for GBP 125:
http://r.ebay.com/81XLob

This is just an example. At similar prices, you can also get pre-assembled devices with a Wolfson DAC (both analog and digital outs) which have squeezelite loaded on them.

These will handle 24/96 no problem. Add a nice 7-8 inch tablet in the GBP 200-300 range. Then buy the OrangeSqueeze app for it for GBP 3 (or iPeng if you go for an iPad Mini). You'd have a setup then which I would consider vastly superior to a EDIT SB Touch /EDIT. Again, except that it's not an all-in-one.

pablolie
2014-10-07, 09:49
... Your perceived difference in sound quality is likely a placebo effect.

Yes, your Benchmark DAC likely measures better than many other gear, but there's a point where differences are too small to be perceived by human hearing.

That I decisively disagree with. I can hear a clear difference between the Benchmark and the Audioengine even when I use them both exclusively as headphone amplifiers. There is more resolution. I will always know which one I am hearing with. The question is whether the difference is worth over $1.7k. For most it surely isn't. For me it is worth every cent. :-)

It's also clearly a function of the equipment that follows the DAC.

And it is measurable, as in channel separation, noise floor etc. But far more importantly, it can be heard.

When I am home, or next to a better source, I would never ever plug my Shure SE535 or Grados into my Samsung S5. For prolonged, dedicated hearing it is... an emergency solution only. Compared to any above, it is muddy and congested.

w3wilkes
2014-10-07, 10:19
I've been keeping my eyes peeled for an announcement on this...
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97803-piCoPlayer-Squeezelite-on-Microcore-linux-An-embedded-OS-in-RAM-with-Squeezelite&p=791739&viewfull=1#post791739
With the other work I've seen on these boards where JackOfAll is involved I have to believe this will be a great SB player with full LMS compatibility. The compatibility will include the full gamut of control interfaces you use for your current players.

Julf
2014-10-07, 11:37
I can hear a clear difference between the Benchmark and the Audioengine even when I use them both exclusively as headphone amplifiers.

So when only using their analog sections?

pablolie
2014-10-07, 13:16
So when only using their analog sections?

The data comes into either device as a digital stream (PCM out of the Touch for the Benchmark, USB from the computer to the AE D1), so they do the DA conversion and -let's say for the first test- send it out to the headphone output. Both are very good, but the benchmark is clearly superior even to people who aren't audiophiles. This is the more minimalist test, and I can use the same headphone set on either, making it quite clear it is only a DAC head-to-head comparison.

If we include the rest of the chain... it is a very unfair comparison. The Benchmark feeds into a few thou of gear to deliver room filling audio, the AE D1 feeds my AE A2 computer monitors. Don't get me wrong, the latter at close distance -and especially fed through the D1- sounds absolutely delightful, and I will not even qualify that with "considering their price". I love that setup and spend several hours listening to music that way most days.

And I have tried connecting the rest of the "premium" chain directly to the Touch (using its internal DAC), and I will take the benchmark every time. The music opens up very clearly. My girlfriend, who as a rule couldn't care less, noticed the day I connected the Benchmark.

And as to connecting the A2s directly to the computer's speaker output... that would be such a waste. :-)

I am not saying you can't get extremely satisfying sound for way less than a thousand dollars... I have given rave reviews about the AE A5 and A2, and the AE D1 or the Dragonfly are *fantastic*. But for my audio shrine I will indulge some in the diminishing results one gets out of carefully selecting better components. But all in all, there has never been a better time to be a music lover that loves highly accurate audio...

...p

dafiend
2014-10-07, 13:58
I can hear a clear difference between the Benchmark and the Audioengine even when I use them both exclusively as headphone amplifiers.
I'm not sure it's worth digging deeper into this. If I remember correctly, the original poster didn't mention anything about headphones.

serge789
2014-10-07, 16:33
Try to build the Raspery and use an external DAC like this: http://www.thomann.de/de/teac_ud_501_b.htm

pablolie
2014-10-07, 19:13
Try to build the Raspery and use an external DAC like this: http://www.thomann.de/de/teac_ud_501_b.htm

to me the issue is... once my (significant) collection of SB devices go.... why keep investing in HW if the SW component looks vulnerable? I think I said back in 2006 that I would pay a license fee for the SBS software. I would have paid for an officially supported and productized softsqueeze agent. They gave it away for free with the devices, they never should have. *Software* is always the most valuable asset. They got it backwards... unfortunately.

agillis
2014-10-07, 19:55
How about an Audiophile VortexBox?

- Plays direct to a USB DAC, Yes
- 24/192, yes
- DSD, yes
- SOtM USB card to make your DAC sound amazing, Yes
- Under $200, Nope more like $1000 but it has 1TB (or more) local storage, CD ripping etc.