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kesey
2014-03-12, 11:48
Have a look at www.ponomusic.com

Neil Young launched his funding round on Kickstarter yesterday March 11th, and there are already 5000+ backers who have kicked in $1.6 million. The PonoPlayer is scheduled to launch in October next. The video is well worth a watch on http://www.ponomusic.com/#home There are a bucket-load of musicians on it giving their impressions of the Pono.

Julf
2014-03-12, 11:58
Have a look at www.ponomusic.com

Neil Young launched his funding round on Kickstarter yesterday March 11th, and there are already 5000+ backers who have kicked in $1.6 million. The PonoPlayer is scheduled to launch in October next. The video is well worth a watch on http://www.ponomusic.com/#home There are a bucket-load of musicians on it giving their impressions of the Pono.

Another butt-ugly FLAC player without network streaming. Just what the world needs... :)

Too bad the musicians don't seem to understand the difference between dynamic compression and compressed file formats.

Mnyb
2014-03-12, 12:35
The interesting part is the built in music store , but there is really not much info on that ?

The most burning question would i be able to easilly use these files outside the silly "better mp3" player ? they sort of don’t get it, this is like Fords "faster horses" ('If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses, Henry Ford') .

It would be another lossles audio store ,they really are not enough of them yet . this one could have actual music no "audiophile recordings" .

If you cant use the files outside the player they really really dont get it . EDIT: you can buy the music ! :) I would sure try out the store if it works better than HD tracks .

And you can have a lossles streaming service wimp proved that .

Julf
2014-03-12, 12:43
EDIT: you can buy the music ! :) I would sure try out the store if it works better than HD tracks.

And I seem to remember Neil Young had something against DSD/SACD, so I guess the stuff will be all-multibit (a good thing, in my personal opinion).

Mnyb
2014-03-12, 13:11
And I seem to remember Neil Young had something against DSD/SACD, so I guess the stuff will be all-multibit (a good thing, in my personal opinion).

I asked some questions to the pono team ,basically if you can sign up without the player and if they are going to have quality control and if they would try to find masters with less destructive compression used .

Lets see what they say about that .

Mnyb
2014-03-12, 13:16
And I seem to remember Neil Young had something against DSD/SACD, so I guess the stuff will be all-multibit (a good thing, in my personal opinion).

+1 in most modern equipment the music is going to be processed anyway by room eq or subwoofer fillters etc or by digital crossovers ,none of these will ever process in DSD . so its pcm anyway .

Try to find a ht reciver with native 8ch DSD......

bakker_be
2014-03-12, 13:50
The interesting part is the built in music store , but there is really not much info on that ?

The most burning question would i be able to easilly use these files outside the silly "better mp3" player ? they sort of don’t get it, this is like Fords "faster horses" ('If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses, Henry Ford') .

It would be another lossles audio store ,they really are not enough of them yet . this one could have actual music no "audiophile recordings" .

If you cant use the files outside the player they really really dont get it . EDIT: you can buy the music ! :) I would sure try out the store if it works better than HD tracks .

And you can have a lossles streaming service wimp proved that .

The Pono file format is said to be FLAC, so I guess DRM and the like are pretty much non-existant


Is PonoMusic a new audio format? What about PonoMusic quality?

No. We want to be very clear that PonoMusic is not a new audio file format or standard. It is an end-to-end ecosystem for music lovers to get access to and enjoy their favorite music in the highest resolution possible for that song or album. The music in the PonoMusic.com Store is sold and downloaded in industry standard audio file formats.

The PonoMusic.com Store uses FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) audio format as its standard, for compatibility, although the PonoPlayer can play most popular high-resolution music formats from other sources. PonoMusic has a quality spectrum, ranging from really good to really great, depending on the quality of the available master recordings:

• CD lossless quality recordings: 1411 kbps (44.1 kHz/16 bit) FLAC files
• High-resolution recordings: 2304 kbps (48 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Higher-resolution recordings: 4608 kbps (96 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Ultra-high resolution recordings: 9216 kbps (192 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files

Mnyb
2014-03-12, 15:12
The Pono file format is said to be FLAC, so I guess DRM and the like are pretty much non-existant


Is PonoMusic a new audio format? What about PonoMusic quality?

No. We want to be very clear that PonoMusic is not a new audio file format or standard. It is an end-to-end ecosystem for music lovers to get access to and enjoy their favorite music in the highest resolution possible for that song or album. The music in the PonoMusic.com Store is sold and downloaded in industry standard audio file formats.

The PonoMusic.com Store uses FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) audio format as its standard, for compatibility, although the PonoPlayer can play most popular high-resolution music formats from other sources. PonoMusic has a quality spectrum, ranging from really good to really great, depending on the quality of the available master recordings:

• CD lossless quality recordings: 1411 kbps (44.1 kHz/16 bit) FLAC files
• High-resolution recordings: 2304 kbps (48 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Higher-resolution recordings: 4608 kbps (96 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
• Ultra-high resolution recordings: 9216 kbps (192 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files


Thats good i will question some more if my initial ones gets answers from pono .

what remains to be seen is for example how they work internationally , they do ship the player outside of US thats good , so hopefully their music shop is not crippled (broken ) by some regional lock in or geo fencing thats a no no in my book .

SlimChances
2014-03-12, 18:02
It has 128 GB of storage but I do not see any way to connect it to a local server for larger libraries. If that is the case it would be very limited. Also no streaming. Looks like a glorified portable MP3 player that plays a few other formats

Pascal Hibon
2014-03-13, 00:22
I don't understand the Pono product. It just seems like yet another portable music player. There are plenty of portable music players around who are able to play lossless music formats.
If this is about quality, then why a portable player and why not a streamer that you can hook up to your stereo?
I'm never going to 'actively' listen to music on my portable devices, but I will do so on my stereo at home.
And if this is about quality, then why bother with hi-res formats? Hi-res is not a guarantee for high quality music.
If quality is important then young should be talking to the music industry and try to get them 1) make good quality recordings and mixes and 2) stop compressing the hell out of the music.

cliveb
2014-03-13, 01:27
It would appear that the Pono ecosystem basically mirrors the iPod/iTunes/iTunes store model. Nothing new there. What *is* new are the following:

1. The player costs $399. This is a joke, right?
2. The player has a triangular form factor that makes it inconvenient to slip in a pocket.

pippin
2014-03-13, 01:35
And, well, nobody buys iPods anymore.

Mnyb
2014-03-13, 02:05
What would make sense would be if Pono bougth squeezebox and set up it's music store :) yea i know....

aubuti
2014-03-13, 10:54
It would appear that the Pono ecosystem basically mirrors the iPod/iTunes/iTunes store model. Nothing new there. What *is* new are the following:

1. The player costs $399. This is a joke, right?
2. The player has a triangular form factor that makes it inconvenient to slip in a pocket.
1) Setting aside for the moment pippin's key observation that nobody buys iPods any more, that's the same price as a 64GB iPod touch, which has half the capacity and no option for swapping out microSD card.
2) True, although I suppose it depends on the pocket. A coat pocket or backpack pocket would be fine. Trousers, not so much unless they're really baggy.

pippin
2014-03-13, 11:03
But people buying an iPod touch (the few of them who still do) usually don't do so because they want a music player but they want a cheap and small "mini-tablet" to run Apps on. iOS and the touch screen are the killer features, not music playing.

atrocity
2014-03-13, 11:19
1) Setting aside for the moment pippin's key observation that nobody buys iPods any more, that's the same price as a 64GB iPod touch, which has half the capacity and no option for swapping out microSD card.

The iPod also works with fewer formats.

I haven't seen the issue of gaplessness addressed yet. One would hope that will all the artists and technicians on board that won't be an issue, but...

aubuti
2014-03-13, 14:13
But people buying an iPod touch (the few of them who still do) usually don't do so because they want a music player but they want a cheap and small "mini-tablet" to run Apps on. iOS and the touch screen are the killer features, not music playing.
No doubt. But if you want a music player -- as many do, even if it's a minority -- then the comparison is valid.

RonM
2014-03-13, 17:46
So this is a portable device, intended to provide portable music? I'd like to see the earbuds/headphones that go with it. iPods and such are typically used as mobile devices, useful for listening to music on the go. Anything that is going to capitalize on high-grade sound needs a high-grade speaker assembly. To get that in a mobile context implies tradeoffs -- e.g. sound-cancelling technology that compromises the quality issue, sound-blocking features that makes you deaf to everything around you, or sound volumes that just make you deaf.

R.

dasmueller
2014-03-13, 19:41
+1

kesey
2014-03-14, 04:30
So this is a portable device, intended to provide portable music? I'd like to see the earbuds/headphones that go with it. iPods and such are typically used as mobile devices, useful for listening to music on the go. Anything that is going to capitalize on high-grade sound needs a high-grade speaker assembly. To get that in a mobile context implies tradeoffs -- e.g. sound-cancelling technology that compromises the quality issue, sound-blocking features that makes you deaf to everything around you, or sound volumes that just make you deaf.

R.

Pono kindly save buyers the need to worry about the quality of the head-phones they provide by allowing buyers to provide their own:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music/posts
"1. What headphones do you recommend? The audio experience is excellent with any decent headphones or earbuds from many of the well-respected brands. We've used products ranging from $80 up with top results. At our press demo yesterday, Ayre used Sennheiser Momentum headphones that retail for $300. We've also gotten amazing results using Audeze headphones, Etymotic in-ears, and many others. To those asking why we didn't bundle headphones, it's because many already own a pair and we wanted to offer the PonoPlayer at the best price possible. That said, we will be providing more recommendations and offering several models for sale when we launch our online store after the Kickstarter campaign. "

dasmueller
2014-03-14, 14:30
If Neil Young is behind it, it must be good right ? That is what some folks are thinking out there. Probably upgrading from their 8-track player.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2014-03-14, 14:52
The interesting part is the built in music store , but there is really not much info on that ?

The most burning question would i be able to easilly use these files outside the silly "better mp3" player ? they sort of don’t get it, this is like Fords "faster horses" ('If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses, Henry Ford') .

It would be another lossles audio store ,they really are not enough of them yet . this one could have actual music no "audiophile recordings" .

If you cant use the files outside the player they really really dont get it . EDIT: you can buy the music ! :) I would sure try out the store if it works better than HD tracks .

And you can have a lossles streaming service wimp proved that .

Yep .I hear the albums will cost 50 dollars each ! lol Just kidding.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2014-03-14, 14:56
It would appear that the Pono ecosystem basically mirrors the iPod/iTunes/iTunes store model. Nothing new there. What *is* new are the following:

1. The player costs $399. This is a joke, right?
2. The player has a triangular form factor that makes it inconvenient to slip in a pocket.

Yeah the design is a problem unless you have it flat on a table.

The bigger problem is the music store .It will be interesting to see how much downloads cost.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2014-03-14, 14:58
1) Setting aside for the moment pippin's key observation that nobody buys iPods any more, that's the same price as a 64GB iPod touch, which has half the capacity and no option for swapping out microSD card.
2) True, although I suppose it depends on the pocket. A coat pocket or backpack pocket would be fine. Trousers, not so much unless they're really baggy.

You could place it in the crotch area !

jhonsberger@msn.com
2014-03-14, 15:00
I don't understand the Pono product. It just seems like yet another portable music player. There are plenty of portable music players around who are able to play lossless music formats.
If this is about quality, then why a portable player and why not a streamer that you can hook up to your stereo?
I'm never going to 'actively' listen to music on my portable devices, but I will do so on my stereo at home.
And if this is about quality, then why bother with hi-res formats? Hi-res is not a guarantee for high quality music.
If quality is important then young should be talking to the music industry and try to get them 1) make good quality recordings and mixes and 2) stop compressing the hell out of the music.

Like the upcoming Fiio X5 dsd player which I think will cost 250 0r 350?

brillo
2014-03-14, 19:11
I'll bet it's really nice, with Ayre collaborating on it and with an ESS Sabre 9018 DAC chip in it...

Nonreality
2014-03-23, 20:50
I don't understand the Pono product. It just seems like yet another portable music player. There are plenty of portable music players around who are able to play lossless music formats.
If this is about quality, then why a portable player and why not a streamer that you can hook up to your stereo?
I'm never going to 'actively' listen to music on my portable devices, but I will do so on my stereo at home.
And if this is about quality, then why bother with hi-res formats? Hi-res is not a guarantee for high quality music.
If quality is important then young should be talking to the music industry and try to get them 1) make good quality recordings and mixes and 2) stop compressing the hell out of the music.

You mean he needs to do what you want and only what you want, regardless if he feels he's doing something good to help music quality.

Tapatalk gave me this handy App for my Nexus 7 :-)

Nonreality
2014-03-23, 21:04
And, well, nobody buys iPods anymore.

That is nobody compared to what Apple used to sell. To some other company like Pono there are a ton of sales. So there is some potential there. I don't like using my phone for music and use a Classic for listening. It has pretty good quality as long as you bypass the headphone jack and go line out through the doc connector. Sounds better than any phone I've tried and I don't use battery life on my phone. Plus no interruption. A Pono is on my list as a replacement.

Tapatalk gave me this handy App for my Nexus 7 :-)

Pascal Hibon
2014-03-23, 23:31
You mean he needs to do what you want and only what you want, regardless if he feels he's doing something good to help music quality.



You missed the point.

Who is interested in listening to high quality music on a portable player? The biggest "portable audio listeners" today are not interested in such thing and there are already plenty of those products on the market. The majority of these people are even not interested in hi-res music and are very happy with mp3 alike formats.

Secondly, is he really helping high quality music? I don't think so because his answer seems to be hi-res music formats. That is not a guarantee for quality music.
If you want quality music then one needs to address the poor quality recordings and poor mastering process used today.

I like it that someone wants to step up and try to make improvements. But from what I've seen so far from this Pono project, I fear that Neal Young's project will miss its goal.

Mnyb
2014-03-23, 23:40
If one whants high qulity portable for some reason there are already products for that .

Lets see if pono lives up tp price and performance then for that niche , they have not pulished any decent spec's wichh in itself is fishy in pov.

Nonreality
2014-03-24, 06:33
You missed the point.

Who is interested in listening to high quality music on a portable player? The biggest "portable audio listeners" today are not interested in such thing and there are already plenty of those products on the market. The majority of these people are even not interested in hi-res music and are very happy with mp3 alike formats.

Secondly, is he really helping high quality music? I don't think so because his answer seems to be hi-res music formats. That is not a guarantee for quality music.
If you want quality music then one needs to address the poor quality recordings and poor mastering process used today.

I like it that someone wants to step up and try to make improvements. But from what I've seen so far from this Pono project, I fear that Neal Young's project will miss its goal.

You miss my point. He can't change everything that's wrong with music formats and he has chosen this way to try to introduce people to a better format. Many people don't even know that there is better than mp3. I love the fact that this will play mp3 so that people can use their existing music and maybe take baby steps into better quality. You seem to think that unless he changes everything that's wrong, then what he is doing is worthless. I applaud him for trying.

Tapatalk gave me this handy App for my Nexus 7 :-)

Julf
2014-03-24, 07:31
You miss my point. He can't change everything that's wrong with music formats and he has chosen this way to try to introduce people to a better format.

There is nothing wrong with 44.1/16 (apart from not giving the record labels enough revenue).

Wombat
2014-03-24, 07:41
Lets see what Pono tries to sell us. I wouldn't wonder if it is exatctly the same stuff you get on HDtracks, Quboz and alike.
I still don't believe Mr. Young does all this for the love in better sound. It is more about getting a part as big as possible of the growing HiRes sales.
And indeed his marketing is well done so far.

SlimChances
2014-03-24, 14:55
There is nothing wrong with 44.1/16 (apart from not giving the record labels enough revenue).

+1

Sorta of like the movie studios attempt to sell everyone on HD 3D Smart TVs. DVD quality is fine ; I'd rather see a good story then a HD one that is poorly done. Similarly rather listen to my collection of Classic Rock recorded CD quality (FLAC)then much of the new stuff offered HiRez

Mnyb
2014-03-24, 19:07
+1

Sorta of like the movie studios attempt to sell everyone on HD 3D Smart TVs. DVD quality is fine ; I'd rather see a good story then a HD one that is poorly done. Similarly rather listen to my collection of Classic Rock recorded CD quality (FLAC)then much of the new stuff offered HiRez

Na not really i can definitely see a difference between bluray and dvd , having a 65" hdtv .

But you cant hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192k it's not humanly possible regardless of ears or equipment .

You can and do hear the difference between good and bad masters and recordings .

So the interesting part is how Pono will run their music store would they just accept files "as is" from their sources or will they do some decent quality controll ?
That would set them apart from other vendors like HD Tracks ( who in some cases even rip consumer disc's SACD for example ? ).

I've signed up for Pono , maybe I should donate a small sum too .
Time will tell what they actually are up to .

Btw I do think that ,another lossles music vendor is not a nill result when most music stores sells mp3 even if Pono not turn out be what's hyped in thier marketing . We need more lossles music stores .

SlimChances
2014-03-24, 19:32
Na not really i can definitely see a difference between bluray and dvd , having a 65" hdtv .

But you cant hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192k it's not humanly possible regardless of ears or equipment .

.


Yes you probably can tell the difference but my point was that if the content is crap what difference does it make if it is 3D HD 1080P or on a 1950s B&W TV. Just an opinion but most of the slag that comes out of Hollywood and for that matter the major music labels is not worth my time.
There is a lot of indie stuff worth watching or listening to though but I am not so interested in the definition of the recording as the story in the movie or the quality of the musicianship

garym
2014-03-25, 04:54
We need more lossles music stores .

agree. And after slogging through Neil's rants on digital music quality in his book, I would have really hoped that the Pono music store would have quality control over its digital files (unlike HDTracks). On the other hand, I am quite pleased that Pono will be FLAC files of different types rather than some "new" codec. I would have no interest in Pono files if they required a unique pono player. Good (well mastered, non dynamic range compressed) FLAC files on the other hand are certainly welcome.

dasmueller
2014-04-07, 17:29
This showed up today.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/07/neil-young-on-pono-interview/

Pascal Hibon
2014-04-07, 23:14
Many people don't even know that there is better than mp3.

Oh but they do know. They just don't care.
Music consumption has changed a lot the last years. The people who enjoy quality music on their high quality music sets are a dying breath.
The new generation is fine with mp3 and this Pono player will not change that.



I love the fact that this will play mp3 so that people can use their existing music and maybe take baby steps into better quality.

And that's a fail right there. Why would anyone enjoying mp3 format today want to pay 400$ for a player that does the same thing as their existing player?




You seem to think that unless he changes everything that's wrong, then what he is doing is worthless. I applaud him for trying.



No I don't think that.
If Neil Young understands what is wrong with the quality today he would not come up with a Pono player. He's efforts are in no way addressing any of the issues we have in regards to quality. Given the fact that Neil tries to address the quality issue with a player leads to the conclusion that he either does not understand the issues (like so many in the industry) or he is using his name and fame to create a nice income for himself.
I find none of these reasons anything to applaud.

Pascal Hibon
2014-04-07, 23:24
You can and do hear the difference between good and bad masters and recordings .

So the interesting part is how Pono will run their music store would they just accept files "as is" from their sources or will they do some decent quality controll ?



I could not have said it any better.

I seriously doubt that Neil and his team would have all bad recordings re-recorded. I don't think this would be financially possible for a company such a Pono to survive.

Mnyb
2014-04-08, 00:00
I could not have said it any better.

I seriously doubt that Neil and his team would have all bad recordings re-recorded. I don't think this would be financially possible for a company such a Pono to survive.

Not exactly re-recorded but track down a good master , from the original studio lests say done before some exec telled them that it was to weak and had to be louder ;)

Pascal Hibon
2014-04-08, 00:17
Not exactly re-recorded but track down a good master , from the original studio lests say done before some exec telled them that it was to weak and had to be louder ;)

Sure, that works if the recording itself is of good quality. That is unfortunately not necessary true for all recordings out there.
Dynamic compression is not the only bad thing that happens during the creation of an album.

Mnyb
2014-04-08, 00:38
Sure, that works if the recording itself is of good quality. That is unfortunately not necessary true for all recordings out there.
Dynamic compression is not the only bad thing that happens during the creation of an album.

Not at all numerous reasons , there migth not exist a good version ,but for mysterius reasons there always seems to exist multiple versions of some recordings ?

Then they have a fallback position they hinted at , getting the best possible master . But then it may be sufficent to rerelease as 16/44.1 flac , lossles yes hirez no .

Wonder if they going to stay of the temptation to sell it as 24/192 anyway at a premuim price he he (like hd tracks does with 1960's rolling stones) ;)

Sadly i think mr .young bougth in the myth that 24/96-192 is necessary , so it may be but if the pricing is going to be higher because I get the random noise in classic/old recordings spread on more bits ?

Julf
2014-04-08, 02:46
the pricing is going to be higher because I get the random noise in classic/old recordings spread on more bits ?

I love the open, airy sound of all those empty bits!

agillis
2014-04-09, 14:32
A non networked music player does not interest me but a music store filled with studio masters in FLAC format does. If they can get licenses to good masters and the ability to release them as FLAC that will be huge. The Pono music store will be the best part.

Julf
2014-04-10, 01:06
A non networked music player does not interest me but a music store filled with studio masters in FLAC format does. If they can get licenses to good masters and the ability to release them as FLAC that will be huge. The Pono music store will be the best part.

Not sure why they would do any better than hdtracks, qobuz and the others...

garym
2014-04-10, 04:41
Not sure why they would do any better than hdtracks, qobuz and the others...

Good point. early interviews on Pono indicated that the record labels were on board to produce high res, better (re)mastered versions of albums to provide to Pono. And at that point it seemed that Pono would be another format (not FLAC, etc.). But recently they make announcements that they only mean FLAC files (which is a good thing by the way) and moreover, several comments that Pono store will have to take what the labels provide them (with Pono store only *hoping* for "better" masters). So it seems that Pono store will probably be just like these other hires sources. And we know that at hdtracks, for example, one may get really good 24/96 or 24/192 files from good masters or different masters from some other release OR one may end up with a 16/44.1 CD quality album that has simply been upconverted to 24/192. Not that there is anything wrong with 16/44.1, but it seems to be a ripoff to sell hires files with no transparency regarding their source.

Julf
2014-04-10, 06:29
Not that there is anything wrong with 16/44.1, but it seems to be a ripoff to sell hires files with no transparency regarding their source.

I agree - nothing wrong with 16/44.1, but not very keen to pay a premium just to get a lot of empty space in the file...