Home of the Squeezebox™ & Transporter® network music players.
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 50
  1. #1
    Senior Member pippin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    13,876

    Recommended Docks for iPeng Playback

    As suggested by Squeezemenicely here
    http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...l=1#post715558
    I would like to open a dedicated DIY thread with recommended devices for iPeng's audiophile playback. After all, as soon as the Touch is sold out, this will be the one of the more simple high-quality audio options left.

    I've also added a similar post on penguinlovesmusic.com so that it's not entirely dependent on this forum. I also eventually plan to write a post about the findings there.
    http://penguinlovesmusic.de/2012/09/...ocks-for-ipeng

    As a little guidance, here's what people will be looking for:

    • Which sample rates are supported with USB audio? Please only post sample rates you really tested. There are a lot of confusing comments by vendors about the capabilities of devices, such as "the built-in DAC supports up to 192 kHz sample rate". While the latter is certainly nice, it doesn't help, if the stream the device pulls from the iPhone/iPad is limited to 48kHz.
    • Does it have a built-in DAC? Does it support volume control?
    • Does it have a remote that supports iOS remote control events? What this means, is that the remote sends commands that iPeng understands, e.g. for volume, skip and play/pause
    • Does it support iPhone and/or iPad?
    • Can it charge an iPhone/iPad?


    As a bonus there is the open question whether there are any docking devices out there (except for Apple's Camera Connection Kit) that allow 96 kHz sample rate playback through USB audio.

    A second area of interest would be the compatibility of DACs. A lot of USB DAC implementations have bad software which causes the iPad to report an error stating the device would draw too much power. Warnings about this or recommendations for devices with good implementations are welcome.
    ---
    learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
    Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
    at penguinlovesmusic.com
    New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

  2. #2
    Senior Member GeeJay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ft Worth, Texas
    Posts
    497
    This has likely been addressed before (but I had no reason to care before last week!): how well do DIY solutions like this work with respect to syncing? Does it depend on the device?
    2-SB3s, 1-Touch, and a Raspberry Pi B+ with TekDevice dacBerry 3+ running piCorePlayer. Mac Mini as a server (OS X Yosemite). Direct Ethernet connection (1-SB3 and the Raspberry Pi) and power-line (1-SB3 and Touch). iPeng is my controller of choice. LMS 7.8.1

  3. #3
    Senior Member pippin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    13,876
    The iPhone/iPad itself fully supports sync with iPeng as long as it's at least an iPhone 3GS or 3rd Gen iTouch (from next week on, the official name). Any iPad.

    iPeng also always uses sample rates up to 96 kHz (if you have such material, of course), even if you use the analog out of the iThingy (which is limited to 44.1/16) so that you don't have to downsample when syncing with a Touch or Transporter. Sync is still fully supported, the downsampling happens after the sync clocking (and has surprisingly little delay, iThingies have soooo much more processing power to spend than the Squeezeboxes).

    The usual limitations for digital data paths apply: if you use an external DAC or audio processor which adds a processing delay, that will delay playback and get it out of sync. But that's the same with a "real" Squeezebox and can be compensated through the player sync setting in the web interface although it might take a bit to find out.

    AirPlay would be the difficult case. It obviously adds additional delay (since the playing stream is re-transmitted) and since there is no protocol to compensate for that (iTunes on a Mac does it but other Apps and iOS can't) it will be significant.
    Some people report they were lucky using the compensation setting in the player settings (sync) but I wasn't. Maybe it's different between Airport Express and AppleTV (which I used for testing).
    ---
    learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
    Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
    at penguinlovesmusic.com
    New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

  4. #4
    Camera Connection Kit

    In light of recent developments at Logitech, I tried connecting an iPad (actually one each of first and third generation) via the camera connection kit (the little white Apple 30-pin to UAB adapter) to the USB input of a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100. The iPads both protested that the DAC was drawing too much power, and failed to cooperate!
    I have a small 4 x USB mini hub (generic I think, but branded Nikkai), with a fifth micro USB socket and a 5V input. With the iPad/camera connection adapter connected to the micro USB and the DAC connected to one of the USB sockets, everything seems to work, with no errors thrown. I didn’t need to add power to the hub. As an additional bonus, the small hub glows an unearthly green!
    It's not clear to me why this changes the iPad's perception of the power drain, not have I (so far) plugged power in to the mini hub.

    Robert

  5. #5
    Senior Member pippin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    13,876
    The reason is that this has nothing to do with power draw (your DAC doesn't draw any power) but is a poorly implemented USB chipset software on the DAC side.
    Turns out a lot of DACs have that problem, they all seem to use the same, cheap USB chipset.
    If you connect through a hub, the iPad talks to the hub's USB chipset, no longer to the DAC's, so the problem goes away.
    ---
    learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
    Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
    at penguinlovesmusic.com
    New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    755
    So I have been playing around with iPeng as a player on my iPad with the Camera Connector Kit. Works really well connected to my Gamma1 DAC (DIY DAC) http://www.amb.org/audio/gamma1/

    Uses Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown PCM2707 for the USB interface and uses the Wolfson WM8501 for the DAC.

    The PCM2707 just outputs i2s to the Wolfson.

    Only issue I get is the occasional pop-up from the ipad saying the device is not supported, however it continues to work just fine.

    I use this setup at work with the iPad creating a VPN tunnel back to my home squeezebox server. Only issue I have is power drain and since you can not easily power the iPad with the CCK in place. To really make this setup ideal would be to have someway to power the iPad.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,950
    FWIW, this works:
    iPeng > iPad 1 or iPad 3 > Apple Dock > Apple Camera Kit > V-DAC USB port.
    No noticeable audio delay induced by the DAC. The only purpose of the dock here is to hold the iPad. The iPad doesn't charge its battery. I have never seen any error popup coming up from the ipad (cf. previous posts). No IR Blaster capability to control volume on the amp. No idea what the sampling rate is.
    Last edited by epoch1970; 2012-09-06 at 06:03.
    3 SB 3 • Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini • iPeng (iPhone + iPad) • LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa • IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) • Server Power Control by Gordon Harris • Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger • PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple • Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson • AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 • WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld • Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    8

    24 bit-perfect streaming to iDevices and portability: configs that really works!

    My goal for 24 bit perfect audio: iDevices with no jailbreak, portability of some sort (smallest setup possible) and high storage capacity.

    For portability of some sort, until now the iPad is the only iDevice (without jailbreak) proved to work without downsampling 24 bit / 96 Khz files in any point in the chain and only under specific configurations that I'll recap here:

    1) With a Camera Connection Kit.
    2) 24 bit USB DACs able to comunicate to the iPad they've a powered USB port (or consume less than 20mV) and that they don't require a driver to work at 1.1 USB specs.
    3) Battery powered USB Hubs or USB chargers which pass data too (or Y USB cable to split power and data) if the 24 bit USB DAC is not battery powered but able to do point 2) .
    4) For portability at home: Logitech Media Server + iPeng Player (in-app purchase needed, no need to have a Logitech device) is limited by Wi-Fi range.
    For portability everywhere: iDevices have limited storage capacity, which must be addressed for those big files. If you add storage to the iDevice dock out you can't use its digital out.
    We need to find a portable high storage wi-fi server device capable of 24 bit-perfect streaming, using LMS and iPeng.

    I've high hopes for the Seagate GoFlex Satellite http://www.seagate.com/external-hard...ate-satellite/ (500GB, latest FW can use internet while streaming). I've read carefully its manual, faq and other infos, the most intersting parts are:
    In the manual it's clearly stated it does not transcode (convert) files but is able to stream any files the device supports or files supported by third-party apps.
    In the FAQ it's stated it has some DLNA capability (but not fully certified), AirPlay it's not yet supported, but some third-party applications are capable of streaming files from the browser interface or DLNA connection and playing that via AirPlay.
    Which third-party apps works with it at 24 bit is still unsure, iPeng needs LMS which isn't installed.
    Patriot Gauntled Node (hard disk not included) is another alternative and you can choose storage capacity, but not a hint if it's able to use any third party software like LMS/iPeng reading uncompleted and confusing infos.

    Is it possible to install LMS in any of those portable high storage wi-fi server devices so to be able to use iPeng which works for sure for 24-bit perfect data?

    BTW I get better sound quality (more details, dynamics, space, smoother rendering, bass definition...) using Logitech Media Server + iPeng (in-app purchase of player needed) than iTunes Home Sharing with stock player and same file, the former plays FLACs too (no need to convert to ALACs) and has a much better and faster interface, check it out! It's not strange since any software player sounds a little different from another (JRiver, Foobar, WMP, iTunes, JPlay,...), bits are not just bits in digital audio, "time" matter a lot.


    More details regarding HW capable devices for 24 bit perfect data:

    Points 1), 2), 3) are potentially addressable with single digital devices similar to:
    Sony PHA-1 (DAC/Amp combo) officially supports up to 24/96 ( http://www.sony.jp/headphone/products/PHA-1/ ).
    Cypher Labs AR Solo (DAC only) officially supports 24 bit for iPad only (see page 7 of the FAQ not the manual here http://cypherlabs.com/images/pdfs/Cy...m_Solo_FAQ.pdf ).
    iPeng Player is the only software with official support (see App Store details) up to 24/48 for iPhone/iPod Touch too (24/96 with iPad), and it could works with above devices at 24 bit-perfect streamig, but it must be used with Logitech's server software.
    Any setup which uses stock Apple player is always reported limited to 16 bits for iPhone/iPods regardless HW/SW used, so with stock player iPad is the only solution for 24 bit.
    The Fostex HP-P1 was potentially a good choice (32 bit DAC/Amp combo) but it's limited at 16/48 and iPad not even supported (even if reported working at 16 bit).
    Do you have any suggestion for other 24 bit capable device?
    I'll update the list here:
    Sony PHA-1 (to be confirmed)
    Cypher Labs AR Solo (to be confirmed)

    Given point 2) not any battery powered USB DAC/Amp or even any desktop ones will work.
    For example my not battery powered iBasso D7 USB DAC/Amp works when connected to a USB battery powered Hub, but my desktop powered M2Tech Young USB DAC won't works even when connected to USB powerd Hubs.
    To dig deeper some 24 bit DACs that works in the above configuration are unable to process some sample rates even lower than their max supported (96 max but no 88.2 support), it depends on the USB chip used (my iBasso D7 uses the XMOS chip and can do any freq up to 192 Khz).
    Who's so kind to report here portable battery powered 24 bit USB DAC/Amps (unbelievable but none reported yet) or that works at least with USB powered Hubs, and at which sample up to at least to 96 Khz?
    I'll update the list here (none are battery powered):
    iBasso D7 any sample up to 192Khz + point 3).
    CEntrance DacPort up to 96 Khz + point 3).
    Audioquest Dragonfly up to 96Khz + point 3).

    For Point 3) a sure approach is to use any normal USB charger and an Y split USB cable (Apricorn USB power splitter for example: black USB to iPad, grey USB to battery, output to the Dac) able to pass data in one side and power to the other.
    It's less elegant than USB battery powered Hubs or chargers which pass data too (chargers USB ports are not always data connected).
    Let me know which one works for you.
    I'll update the list here:
    D-Tech solar/battery powerd Hub (solar power not capable to feed unpowered USB DAC/Amp, battery for 1,5 hours only).
    Tekkeon MP1860A and MP1550 (MP1580, MP1820 should works but not confirmed).

    Other iDevices (without jailbreak) are generally limited to a max official support of 24 bit / 48 Khz, which could be fine.
    iPhone and iPod Touch:
    LMS/iPeng player works at 24/48, but without a CCK and no jailbreak, you need a desktop digital dock like Pure i-20, which is not portable neither at home.
    CLAS could works with iPeng Player, but officially 24 bit are for iPad only, a direct test is needed.
    Sony HPA-1 supports up to 24/96 but it's uncertain if it uses a dedicated player or stock player which limits 24 bit to iPad only.
    HP-P1 is 16/48 limited.
    iPod Classic 160GB (without wi-fi and iPeng) works with 24 bit / 48 Khz files only in the sense that it'll be able to play them but it will always downsample to 16 bit before reaching the DAC section.
    VentureCraft Go-DAP 4.0 will always downsample/upsamples to 48 Khz.
    I'll update any possible portable 24 bit solution for other iDevices here:
    (none confirmed)

    I know iPad + CCK + battery powered USB Hub + USB DAC/Amp (or CLAS) + mobile storage wi-fi server isn't really pocketable for jogging, but at least is a transportable 24 bit system with a normal iPad/notebook bag. For me real limits till now are wi-fi coverage or storage capacity.

    To prevent unnecessary posts and confusion which will not focus the target (like if you're able or not to hear a sound difference with 24 bit files or to suggest a diferent DAP), please post only detailed configs/settings with iDevices checked with an external dac able to display bit/freq received.

    Thank you very much and regards.
    Last edited by Thraex; 2012-09-06 at 18:06. Reason: Error

  9. #9
    Senior Member pippin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    13,876
    Quote Originally Posted by Thraex View Post
    My last and most important question regarding iPeng: is it possible to use it with other UPnP/DLNA servers (without Logitech ones)
    No
    and how to achieve 24 bit-perfect streaming?
    Depends on the dock/DAC. To be on the safe side, turn the volume to 100%. If the DAC does volume control in the analog domain, you can use the volume in iPeng, too.

    On a further note: the built-in DAC in the iThingies is limited to 16 bit but that doesn't really matter, the iThingies do volume control in the analog domain (which is why you lose volume control on the iThingy if you use an analog dock that uses line out) and the 16 bit are definitely enough for the resolution of the iThingy-DAC.

    And one more: Other than the Squeezeboxes, iPeng per default does NOT do digital volume control, instead, it uses the iThingy's system volume. What that means depends on the output channel: with the internal DAC or AirPlay or external DACs that do analog volume control, it means analog volume control is being used, with line out it means you have no volume control at all and with USB devices it more or less depends on the device.
    ---
    learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
    Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
    at penguinlovesmusic.com
    New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    8
    Thanks for the quick reply.

    Do you have any plan to support UPnP/DLNA with iPeng in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin View Post
    Depends on the dock/DAC. To be on the safe side, turn the volume to 100%. If the DAC does volume control in the analog domain, you can use the volume in iPeng, too.
    Do you mean: if the external USB DAC/Amp is able to recognize the iDevice you can use the iPeng in-app volume slider to control the external DAC's analog stepped volume?
    Since some USB DAC/Amps are with analog volume control knobs not motorized and maybe unable to recognize iDevices, do they use digital volume or are unable to control volume within iPeng app?

    I'm sorry to be picky, but since so many variables I must be.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •