LST observations from an IT pro perspective

[Mardler]

I'm new to LST as my last two threads show.

Setting up the LST was a nightmare of frustration & repeated attempts to get it to do what was wanted plus workrounds I discovered to make it do simple things the software won't. Just the simple stuff, no clever plugins or w.h.y.

(Here, I must thank Pete_W at Hi-Fi Critic forum, garymc at Logitech forum and one or two others for their unstinting assistance.)

However, I don't suppose the nightmare is over for a minute: I still haven't tried unplugging the thing and taking it to another room/system nor USB/SD.

My point is that, as a one time IT professional and having designed (what I have been told is) one of the world's most sophisticated incoming money handling systems for a bn UK pnds company, I'm not daft and have some quite strong views on the user experience of LST and why it is a FAIL.

One of the requirements of good retail consumer product design is that it is easy and intuitive to use (PnP if you like). LST is the antithesis. The software is the problem (by all accounts, including mine, sonics are excellent for the price).

Logitech appear to have sunk development funding into hardware (good) at the expense of useability (bad).

Frankly, it is not acceptable in today's market to unleash on the public a product whose software interface is close to unuseable (one forum member actually said if you're not into programming buy a SONOS instead!).

The software appears to have been built without a detailed design or any concern for the (average!) human interface. An analogy is asking a brick layer to build you a house but with no architect's plan or owner contact - it can't be done. If one of my staff had brought the LST to me as a finished product (s)he would've been sent back to the drawing board.

So, my question is - why isn't there a comprehensive manual describing, from first principles, how to set up LST and then, in more detail, ALL of the more sophisticated stuff e,g. 3rd party plugins? OK, I know folks here will quote "open source" at me but the average buyer isn't a code developer and shouldn't need, as I did, to resort to thinking and acting like a programmer again. BTW, I ran an open source based forum for many years and had no trouble (given my background) but most of the people I know wouldn't have a clue as to what to do, which is my point.

Rant over until the next time something goes wrong or Logitech issue a proper manual - competitors can build perfect, sophisticated but simple to use, software and issue comprehensive manuals so come on Logitech!

[Grumpy Bob]

Seems to be quite a lot of information on how to set up a Touch over at the Logitech website. Mind you, I've always found Squeezeboxes and LMS (in its various releases) quite easy to set up on Linux systems, including a QNAP NAS.

What specific problems have you experienced? I saw your posting about toggling between LMS and Mysqueezebox.com.

Robert

[amcluesent]

>why isn't there a comprehensive manual describing, from first principles<

You're perfectly at liberty to add/improve the Wiki - http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph...rs_Guide_Pages

[aubuti]

So, my question is - why isn't there a comprehensive manual describing, from first principles, how to set up LST and then, in more detail, ALL of the more sophisticated stuff e,g. 3rd party plugins? OK, I know folks here will quote "open source" at me but the average buyer isn't a code developer and shouldn't need, as I did, to resort to thinking and acting like a programmer again. BTW, I ran an open source based forum for many years and had no trouble (given my background) but most of the people I know wouldn't have a clue as to what to do, which is my point.

It's impossible to respond to any of the usability issues you raise because they are so general that there is no idea where to start. I will say that I am not an IT pro and really had no problem figuring out the SB basics when I started using them several years ago. Perhaps your previous experience leads to bring a lot of preconceptions that don't apply to this product.

As for a manual, did you look at this one: http://www.logitech.com/assets/30072/documentation.pdf

I think it is unreasonable to exect Logitech to produce a comprehensive manual for 3rd party plugins, which are by definition outside their control (and to some degree, their expertise).

[garym]

It's impossible to respond to any of the usability issues you raise because they are so general that there is no idea where to start. I will say that I am not an IT pro and really had no problem figuring out the SB basics when I started using them several years ago. Perhaps your previous experience leads to bring a lot of preconceptions that don't apply to this product.

I too am not a programmer, an IT person, a systems designer, or anything close in my professional life. And my initial experience with SB stuff was in fact "plug and play". create account at mysb.com, plug in SB BOOM, enter WIFI passcode, enter mysb.com credentials, and within about 5 minutes from unboxing the player I was streaming internet radio, pandora, etc. All seemed like magic to me, but it just worked.

Since that time I have expanded (considerably) my SB stuff, including using dedicated servers at my home and weekend place. I've learned a few things along the way (heck, I didn't even know what an IP address was back then). And this forum has been a tremendous learning experience for me related to all things "networked music players" and digital music.

I agree that the initial user experience can be a challenge. I find that people have a hard time grasping the difference between LMS on their local computer and mysqueezebox.com (i.e., LMS "in the cloud"), and how the two interrelate. But regarding good documentation, I see that the world has changed and for many companies (not just logitech) documentation, support, etc. has effectively been "crowd sourced". These very forums are a good example. The wiki is a good example (although it does need updating badly). This approach is not unique to logitech. I'd say virtually all major companies that I'm familiar with are doing the same (even Apple, as user forums are much more help than official Apple support, or the 3 page brochure that comes with the product).

At first glance, this seems unfair (make the users provide support to each other), but as an old guy that has many years of being a "customer" seeking support for products, I'd say that never in my life has it been easier for me to get specific information about a product, how to use a product, etc. I find that I can answer most questions I have with almost any product with a google search. And moreover, I find that user-to-user forums are typically the BEST source of useful information. Frankly, I'd rather have knowledgeable users help me than some minimum wage person on the other end of a phone bank or help desk that is supporting 50 or more products from "outlines" in a manual (i.e., "is your unit plugged in to the wall? OK, please reboot and tell me what you see".)

Anyhow, I'm the garymc you thank for helping you over at the other "official" logitech forum. I'm pleased you are making progress with your TOUCH setup and happy to help. The TOUCH and other SB players are marvelous pieces of equipment, particularly when you think about how inexpensive they are (well, other than the Transporter). And in many ways, I think we are simply lucky that some engineers somewhere decided to actually make the players better than they had to be with regard to sound quality, quality of DAC, digital and analog outs, etc. (given that they are really just cheap plastic consumer products). This is one area where SB products excel over SONOS I think. (and for me Sonos is a non-starter because it can't handle more than about 60,000 total files without a very clunky WMP workaround).

Anyhow, stick with it. Once sorted, I predict you'll be quite pleased with the product. I'm perfectly willing to pay 10 times the cost for a networked music player that is better than the SB players and do everything they do, but honestly I've found no examples, at any cost, that can perform all the functions I use.

[Mardler]

All very interesting comments; I agree that poor documentation isn't limited to Logitech.

I had looked at all the various stuff I could find, fiddled about a lot and this, together with the support of a few forum members (garym, I thought that was you!) I've got the thing into a much more usable state.

Maybe I'm just an old fart who expects high standards of documentation?!

[garym]

All very interesting comments; I agree that poor documentation isn't limited to Logitech.

I had looked at all the various stuff I could find, fiddled about a lot and this, together with the support of a few forum members (garym, I thought that was you!) I've got the thing into a much more usable state.

Maybe I'm just an old fart who expects high standards of documentation?!

hey, welcome to the old fart club, we all think that things could simply be better (like they used to be). ;-)

p.s. On the other hand, digital music has transformed my long-time music listening. I certainly don't want to go back to vinyl in the house and 8-tracks in the car!

[bakker_be]

The first squeezebox I ever installed was a Slim Devices Squeezebox 3, around 6 years ago, and I seem to recall the quick start manual it came with was indeed better than what's available nowadays. Even being an IT professional, it still took me around 2 hours of time to get everything up and running however, the advantage being that I was payed to do it, it was a customer's device
After this discovery of the squeezebox eco-system, I've continued to use the software players up until rather recently I bought a SBT. I didn't see the need to buy any earlier, as I didn't even have a proper stereo anymore. Since I already had the whole software environment in place, for me it really was plug and play, which it has done since for a whole lot of hours.
Only recently there are devices appearing that I would consider in terms of sound quality, but when I look into their possibilities I find the following:

• a frightening lack of flexibility, i.e. no MusicIP mixes
• limited "social" abilities: LastFM scrobbling seems totally non-existant
• poor visual interface on the device itself: they seem to be stuck at SB3 level
• no player sync, or multizone

These are all default functions/possibilities of the SBT, and I haven't even begun scratching the surface of what is possible using 3d party plugins. On top of this lack of what to me are indispensable features comes the amazing price surplus most competitors ask for their product. I'm rather glad the beancounters at Logitech chose to cut on accompanying leaflets & similar stuff instead of on hardware and server software

[bencat]

As someone who has had a few problems with their SBT in the few months since I have owned it I should be in agreement with the OP . However I have to say that I really do disagree on many levels.

As a product that works right out of the box the SBT was for considering what I now realise is the complex things it does excellent. Within 10 minutes of opening the box I had music streaming from my HD in to my full music system . Nearly five minutes of that was the delay because I could not remember the password for myserver .
Internet radio was instant including BBC and others .

Getting the advance features form the SBT need a little work but in truth for many users they do not want or use the advanced features and they can learn about them as they go along . In most case to be able to play your music and make up playlists with some radio listening is about all that is needed and this can be done with little or no fuss.

Perhaps the problem is that as an IT professional you had some very definite things in mind and the SBT does not easily offer them , however what it does also offer is an open book to apps , work rounds , re programming which few if any other items at double the price offer.

Finally as noted sites like this one , Wigwam Hi Fi , Hi Fi Critic , Pink Fish Media and Digital Audio have some really freindly and helpful people who can offer you advice and help to achieve what you want. Given that an SBT costs around £160 or less when on offer what do you really expect for that sort of money ?

[bernt]

Strange!? I found the SB system very easy to install and use.

But when it comes to iPhones and iTunes.... everytime my wife or kids wants help with the iStuff I feel like banging my head to the wall.