Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?

[garym]

Here you are cetainly very very right with the vaste majority of "audiophile" gear, I will be the last one to fight this statement. However, the question is, how to separate trash from the rest... That is what we are talking about over here

I don't disagree, but in the case of cd transports, even free might be too much given the advent of other digital players.

[ralphpnj]

Here you are cetainly very very right with the vaste majority of "audiophile" gear, I will be the last one to fight this statement. However, the question is, how to separate trash from the rest... That is what we are talking about over here

I agree, however just because the tweak or modification can be done with little or no cost does not mean that it is worthwhile. There are many tweaks and modifications which can be made to the SB Touch but so far none have been shown to make a distinct improvement to the sound (as opposed to simply changing the sound) of the stock SB Touch when using the digital output and an external DAC.

[diego]

I agree, however just because the tweak or modification can be done with little or no cost does not mean that it is worthwhile. There are many tweaks and modifications which can be made to the SB Touch but so far none have been shown to make a distinct improvement to the sound (as opposed to simply changing the sound) of the stock SB Touch when using the digital output and an external DAC.

So... given that you are so sure about that, I believe, that you certainly have made extensive listening tests between using USB and s/pdif to the same DAC with different DACs (as they have of course different implementations of USB and s/pdif input filters...). Could you maybe develop a bit on your listening tests? I would indeed be keen to know about! Thanks in advance!

[ralphpnj]

So... given that you are so sure about that, I believe, that you certainly have made extensive listening tests between using USB and s/pdif to the same DAC with different DACs (as they have of course different implementations of USB and s/pdif input filters...).

Why? At present I use the coaxial S/PDIF output of the SB Touch into my external DAC. I really don't care how the USB sounds since there is not a USB input available on the stock SB Touch. Add to that the fact that my desktop computer has an optical digital output, which I use instead of the USB output. So I guess that makes me USB free

By the way diego if you read through some of my posts on some other threads on this forum you will see that I've long asserted that the high end audio industry is deathly afraid that the lowly $300 SB Touch coupled with a quality external DAC leaves little room for improvement, hence the focus on expensive asynchronous USB devices.

[TheOctavist]

get the touch and a decent dac.

dont worry about stupid mods that make no difference.

as you can see from the stereophile reviews , it measures exceptionally well, and with an external DAC, you add an extra layer of salve to your audiophile mind..

it gets no better than perfect, friend. and yes, ive done extensive DBT, with multiple dacs.

no power supply, no software mods, no pulse transformer ...make a single iota of difference. i promise. youll never see any proof...just subjective waffle..

[diego]

Girls and guys, I would not be asking this question if I had not "heard" (I mean it!) better...! Now you might be right, or you might be wrong, that out of the touch, it won't get better. But there is live after the touch... I lately had the opportunity to have a listeing session with the wifi/lan/etc. streaming DAC of resolution audio, and I have dealt with music sufficiently long to know, that this was closer to live than what I get out my touch. However, I am not sure, where the biggest room for improvement lies.

@TheOctavist: If you read my initial post here, you have seen, that I have a rather decent dac connected...

@TheOctavist #2: "it gets no better than perfect, friend". Well friend. You are right. But we ar still far away from perfect. Many so called "audiophiles" know music only from audio. Well there, it does not surprise anyobody, that they find audio just perfect.

But some among us intimately know the natural, direct, unaltered sound of instruments (im mean the real natural direct sound, not just impressions out of amplified concerts...!!!) and some among us try to transport a slight memory of this (THIS) feeling into the 4 walls of our home. That is, why we know, that we are still not there, where "perfect" begins. And we continue looking for improvement, just to get a bit closer and again a bit closer...

I can't talk for everybody here, just for me: I dont think the word "audiophile" matches, what I am looking for. Its not audio. Its just those short moments of the illusion of real music, trying to make them last longer and the illusion even more perfect... "musicophile" maybe??? I don't care.

How old or young are you, Octavist? Do you remenber back there in 1982: "perfect sound forever", Philipps and Sony called out, that audio equipment development had reached its top forever, the peak, Mount Everest. Now way to go further. Happyness without compromise. Well for 10 years, they said: A zero is a zero. A one is a one. Nothing can be changed or altered there. Its simple: just perfect.

Nobody believed that there were other things they just had not SEEN. Well. it took 10 years (or was it even more?) !!!! However: One innocent morning, they discovered "jitter" and its impact.

What we don't know today, is, what it is that makes equal strems of 0 and 1 sound differently, when thrown through different cables, different DACs that have the same chips built in, but maybe different DC supplies. And they do not sound equally good... Etc.

Those people who realy listen, and who really care for (its not bad if you don't, its just a choice!!!), these people indeed DO notice the difference. If you put sufficient empiric experiencies together, you will notice, that they match what is needed for a significant statistical difference that would be enough for the scientifical proof, that there IS a difference, even if we might not yet know, what the cause of it is. So its not just "rainbows" - its sciense. Yet not phyisical sciense, but statistical. The physicians still have to figure out where it comes from. They might eventually open wide their eyes and discover a new word, just as they discovered "jitter" one surprising moring...

Do it like Aristoteles told us: Measure, what you can measure. And make measurable, what you cannot measure yet. (What he did not say, but its self-evident: Do not just ignore IT because you don't have the instruments yet, to measure IT).

So long for "perfect"... you provoked me I did not want to enter into this discussion, as it is really odd... Some believe in what they see on a measuring screen, others believe what they hear, some hear differences, others not. Lets everybody live in peace together

So to reiniterate the question:

I am NOT (NOT!!!) asking whether the Touch is perfect or not!!! I am just asking, what is the best way to get digital s/pdif or usb data out of a squeezebox (be it touch, transporter or whatever), to feed a good DAC.

Has anyone made other (listening!!!) experiencies??? Thanks!

[cliveb]

However, with the upgrade I put in, it will support asynchronous USB, and as far as I understood, this means, that the clock is provided by the DAC instead of the computer (aka the SBT). So in this case, the touch via async USB would be the choice... Do you agree?

Well, this thread seems to have moved on a bit (towards the same old tedious argument that 99% of threads in this forum eventually arrive at), but seeing as you asked....

*IF* you want to obsess about making sure jitter is minimised, then yes, I agree that in the context of your DAC, an asynchronous USB feed is the correct solution, as it's the only way you can ensure that the DAC's own clock is used as the master.

However, the only properly-controlled studies into the effects of jitter on audio playback I have ever seen (Benjamin & Gannon, 1998; and Ashihara et al, 2005) came to the conclusion that really quite high levels of jitter (20nS+) makes no audible difference to normal music programme material. So striving to achieve the lowest possible jitter might be a wild goose chase.

You say you've heard better and want to try and get there. But when you heard that, was the system and the listening room the same? Were you in the same frame of mind? What was the weather like? All of these things will affect what you hear far more than the transport and DAC.

I have an anecdote that I like to trot out at times like these. Once in my life - just once - I heard a solid, 3D, holographic image of a jazz band in my living room. The kind you can walk up to and put your hand on the trombine player's shoulder. It was when playing a vinyl LP through a pair of speakers well known for their lack of imaging capability (Linn Isobariks). I played the same LP the next day and the effect was gone. I've never heard it again. What you hear is far more to do with what your brain gets up to than the actual soundfield produced by the stereo system.

[darrenyeats]

I agree several posters have kept to theoretical matters. But myself and TheOctavist have given you our listening experiences. They may or may not coincide with your views (apparently they don't) but they are what you asked for.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

[diego]

I have an anecdote that I like to trot out at times like these... What you hear is far more to do with what your brain gets up to than the actual soundfield produced by the stereo system.

Of course! And that is why, the best test setup sometimes may fail. If you hear the same track twice in a double blind setup, you might have another mindset the first and the second time you listen... That is, why I trust my long time listening experience much more than fast comparisons. Its over time that I notice improvements or degradations. When I get more frequently those moments where I just have no choice than to sit down and listen, and I close the eyes and "see" the orchestra, jazz band, or dee Dee B., then it is, because a change happened.

The last time I noticed that, was, when I had to send my touch back to Logitech. It had stoped working one day and went to repair... I got a brand new one back. All right. I connected it and it was just aweful. Really. It was audio and not music, I guess, you know what I mean. I tried all my well know tracks. Everywhere the same. I noticed even harshness in the treble where it had never been as far as I remembered. I gave up and listening was just background for a couple of weeks. Then one day I was pleased of what I heard (on Winston Mankunku Ngozi, Abantwana Be Africa (Children of Africa), a wonderful CD by the way) - and I sat down again... Just great! After a couple of more such experiencies it was clear to me, that something had changed in the meantime. Nut just a subtle thing. Really dramatically. I had not changed anything in the setup! But the sound was just again like i remembered it as it was before: With my previous Touch, before it went to repair: Very pleasing, but still not "perfect" ;-) . Now, I guess there is probably already a thread, probably discussed passionately, about the effects or not of breaking in (although the 0 and 1s look the same ;-) ), so please let's do not start here with this question, but anyway, I have no other explanation to what I observed. So far for my anectote.

So again: I will connect my Touch by async USB as soon as my DAC is upgraded and I find time to do so, and I will let you know whether there is improvement or not. You might be right: s/pdf is usually rated better than USB, so the result may be better, worse, different or just the same, I do not have any particular expectation. I won't even try to justify my investment: The DAC upgrade is not expensive and it is mainly made for the possiblity of connecting a computer, so it makes sense anyway, even if the tests show, that Touch should be sounding better through s/pdif in my setup.

I agree several posters have kept to theoretical matters. But myself and TheOctavist have given you our listening experiences. They may or may not coincide with your views (apparently they don't) but they are what you asked for.

@darrenyeats: Yes. I appreciat that, and I thanked you for that yesterday!

@TheOctavist: And I thank TheOctavist too, in particular for the listening testimonial part of his post!

[garym]

In terms of direct experience, I can report that I could not detect any difference (in a double blind test) between the optical out and coax out of my touch feeding a benchmark DAC1.

All Bluejeans cables, including two types of toslink I happened to have.