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  1. #121
    Senior Member Soulkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willakan View Post
    I can't seem to work out whether the test was between the digital or analog outputs though...
    In other words; The test's reproducibility can be expressed in a non-non-zero number.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willakan View Post
    Make no mistake: I'm not singling it out as flawed, just saying that it was probably also flawed. I'm very much on the "worthless claims are worthless" bandwagon.

    I can't seem to work out whether the test was between the digital or analog outputs though...
    A lot of people find it tempting to denote things only as black or white, with no possible territory in the middle.

    The "perfect" blind test will never exist, but that shouldn't keep us from drawing conclusions regarding the cumulative weight of the somewhat less-that-perfect tests that have been performed over the years.

    The conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen over the years is solid proof that we are human. Under sighted conditions (i.e., with knowledge of the make/model we're listening to at the moment), our comments are dramatic and full of hyperbole.

    As the knowledge-of-conditions slider moves slowly toward blindness, the differences reported get smaller, less certain and sometimes even disappear.

    Anyone who doesn't admit the obvious - that we are easily susceptible to subjective factors - is whistling past the graveyard.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl View Post
    A lot of people find it tempting to denote things only as black or white, with no possible territory in the middle.

    The "perfect" blind test will never exist, but that shouldn't keep us from drawing conclusions regarding the cumulative weight of the somewhat less-that-perfect tests that have been performed over the years.

    The conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen over the years is solid proof that we are human. Under sighted conditions (i.e., with knowledge of the make/model we're listening to at the moment), our comments are dramatic and full of hyperbole.

    As the knowledge-of-conditions slider moves slowly toward blindness, the differences reported get smaller, less certain and sometimes even disappear.

    Anyone who doesn't admit the obvious - that we are easily susceptible to subjective factors - is whistling past the graveyard.
    Agreed, but I still don't see why more emphasis wasn't placed on discussion of the test conditions from the get-go, to establish whether it could be classed as meaningful and/or to attempt to reproduce it.

  4. #124
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willakan View Post
    Agreed, but I still don't see why more emphasis wasn't placed on discussion of the test conditions from the get-go, to establish whether it could be classed as meaningful and/or to attempt to reproduce it.
    NoRoDa has provided a lot of the details of test conditions in various posts in this thread and the thread to which he linked when starting this thread. Btw, it is easy to find those posts by clicking on the link that shows NoRoDa's username, and then choosing "View Forum Posts." Also don't forget to see the ancillary material by member "baardbaard", who was also involved in the tests.

    Perhaps most important, NoRoDa has already said that the test "...wasn't double blind or very scientific in any way...", which may be why more details were neither offered or requested by other forum members. But now that you're a part of the discussion, feel free to ask about details that haven't been included yet. My take-away from NoRoDa's disclaimer is that that time would be better spent trying to improve the protocol rather than trying to reproduce it. Having two SB Touch players to test side-by-side seems to be a critical improvement over (almost?) every other comparison that has been posted on this topic in this forum, which generally compare the same Touch before/after mods.

  5. #125
    Senior Member NoRoDa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    NoRoDa has provided a lot of the details of test conditions in various posts in this thread and the thread to which he linked when starting this thread. Btw, it is easy to find those posts by clicking on the link that shows NoRoDa's username, and then choosing "View Forum Posts." Also don't forget to see the ancillary material by member "baardbaard", who was also involved in the tests.

    Perhaps most important, NoRoDa has already said that the test "...wasn't double blind or very scientific in any way...", which may be why more details were neither offered or requested by other forum members. But now that you're a part of the discussion, feel free to ask about details that haven't been included yet. My take-away from NoRoDa's disclaimer is that that time would be better spent trying to improve the protocol rather than trying to reproduce it. Having two SB Touch players to test side-by-side seems to be a critical improvement over (almost?) every other comparison that has been posted on this topic in this forum, which generally compare the same Touch before/after mods.

    Thanks aubuti.

    The primary goal of the blind listening was to check the differences between a factory/vanilla SBT and one with TT3.0 installed.
    There was just me and baardbaard present at the time of the listening. Two guys that finally had the chance to listen to two SBTs at once.

    Please do not read this thread as if it was a thread about how to perform a repeatable double blind test. This is just my (and baardbaard's) experience and surprise when listening without expectation bias.

    Remember that I reported much better sound when installing TT3.0 in my system, and I also heard differences when changeing priority settings in TT3.0.
    I even heard a difference when the PRIOIRQ47 went from 40 to 41.
    But the time from the changes were made until the restarts were completed and the music started again, probably was too long and made my head fill up with expectation bias...?

    There is no proof in our blind listening
    - We haven't proved that it's possible to hear a difference between a vanilla SBT and a TT3.0 mod
    - We haven't proved that it isn't possible to hear a difference between wired LAN and wireless.
    etc...

    Regards
    Rolf
    SBT | Teddy Pardo TTouch | Rega DAC | Audionet SAM V2 | Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand Symphony Edition |

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRoDa View Post
    Thanks aubuti.

    The primary goal of the blind listening was to check the differences between a factory/vanilla SBT and one with TT3.0 installed.
    There was just me and baardbaard present at the time of the listening. Two guys that finally had the chance to listen to two SBTs at once.

    Please do not read this thread as if it was a thread about how to perform a repeatable double blind test. This is just my (and baardbaard's) experience and surprise when listening without expectation bias.

    Remember that I reported much better sound when installing TT3.0 in my system, and I also heard differences when changeing priority settings in TT3.0.
    I even heard a difference when the PRIOIRQ47 went from 40 to 41.
    But the time from the changes were made until the restarts were completed and the music started again, probably was too long and made my head fill up with expectation bias...?

    There is no proof in our blind listening
    - We haven't proved that it's possible to hear a difference between a vanilla SBT and a TT3.0 mod
    - We haven't proved that it isn't possible to hear a difference between wired LAN and wireless.
    etc...

    Regards
    Rolf
    Rolf,
    sounds interesting.
    Could you tell us a bit on the whole system you used?
    This week I'm going with the similar exercise, perhaps more "advanced" - two SBTs, first one vanilla with std PSU and EDO, second also with EDO and with advanced PSU together with some HW mods including separate powered high end oscillatrors. My chain: SBT->coax->Sabre->passive->AN conquest->BLH on Sonido SFR175.
    regards,
    Andy

  7. #127
    Best thing I ever did (months ago) was disable TT3.0............go back to stock........and quit reading all the unqualified Bullshnit here.

    This forum is THE definition of "waste of time"

    I did the cap mod however and that did improve the analog.

  8. #128
    Senior Member NoRoDa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brgds View Post
    Rolf,
    sounds interesting.
    Could you tell us a bit on the whole system you used?
    This week I'm going with the similar exercise, perhaps more "advanced" - two SBTs, first one vanilla with std PSU and EDO, second also with EDO and with advanced PSU together with some HW mods including separate powered high end oscillatrors. My chain: SBT->coax->Sabre->passive->AN conquest->BLH on Sonido SFR175.
    regards,
    Andy
    Hi

    Read this post:
    http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...l=1#post699118

    Good luck with the tests!
    PS: The one thing we did hear an improvement with was the Teddy PSU, could be worth testing

    Regards
    SBT | Teddy Pardo TTouch | Rega DAC | Audionet SAM V2 | Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand Symphony Edition |

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRoDa View Post
    Hi

    Read this post:
    http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...l=1#post699118

    Good luck with the tests!
    PS: The one thing we did hear an improvement with was the Teddy PSU, could be worth testing

    Regards
    Just to confirm, this was with the digital outputs?

  10. #130
    Senior Member NoRoDa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willakan View Post
    Just to confirm, this was with the digital outputs?
    Yup, that's correct.
    Was a bit of a surprise that one, didn't think it would be that easy to hear.
    SBT | Teddy Pardo TTouch | Rega DAC | Audionet SAM V2 | Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand Symphony Edition |

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