ReplayGain Problems?

[IEMCrazy3]

Finally, I am able to post. I tried creating three accounts, and the activation and support emails never arrived, not even in junk. I'm guessing the server this is on is blacklisted in some email security system and those emails got filtered out long before they got to me. The email was instantaneous to another email account of mine (and I get emails from the other Logitech services.)

I posted this same post on the Logitech Support forums earlier simply because I couldn't post it here due to the login issues, but I think the community here is probably the more appropriate place for the question given the more hands-on nature here:

I have a few questions about ReplayGain support on Squeezebox Touch:

1: Is ReplayGain compatible with the "Fixed Volume (100%)" setting? Meaning if I have Fixed Volume on, will the SB still process the RG gain adjustment? I found some information on the topic, but not nearly enough, and some seemed contradictory.

2: When "Fixed Volume" is not enabled and RG is turned on (either track or album gain), is the volume slider supposed to move automatically on each track, and is that how it controls the gain adjustment?

3: I may have "broken" my RG support within a few hours! I'd appreciate any help on how to restore it. Details below: (Note, I'm using the digital coax output to a DAC.)

a: Originally I had "fixed volume" disabled and Album Gain enabled. The volume slider seemed to move with each track in my Random Mix and adjust the volume. Turning Album Gain off (no gain adjust), the music would be at my usual play level (25% on the vol knob on my amp). With Album Gain on, huge amounts of volume loss were present, ushing me to 60% of the volume knob on my amp for the came perceived SPL.

b: I did some playing with fixed volume etc, toggled settings. I noticed if I hit volume on the remote it seemd to override the automatic jumping of the volume slider on screen.

c: After going back to it to test some more after listening, I realized no matter what combination of "fixed volume" on/off or track/album/none settins I used, there is no adjustment in the output levels. Even if I turn "fixed vol" off, put my volume at 50%, and set track or album gain on, there is no difference between on and off now, and the slider does not jump.

d: If I examine the "more info" details of any track in the playlist, the gain settings are still in the tags (so the server still has them stored.)

e: I tried rebooting the server, just to be safe. I also rebooted and unplugged the SB Touch to be sure.

f: I did a "reset to factory settings" from the advanced menu on the SBT. I had to re-enter the region, language, wifi settings, etc. Changing the gain settings still does nothing. Vol is always at full output (~25% volume knob), no matter if I select "none" or "track, album, etc." No difference is detected when switching (even on hot tracks.)

g: I did a "reset player settings" on the server side just to try that. Still no effect. When I turn album gain or track gain on, there's still not detected difference.

I would have assumed that the ReplayGain support just doesn't work with the digital output and is for the internal DAC only, except that it seemed to work originally! That part has me confused.

I'd appreciate any ideas anyone may have!

[tufty]

1: Is ReplayGain compatible with the "Fixed Volume (100%)" setting? Meaning if I have Fixed Volume on, will the SB still process the RG gain adjustment? I found some information on the topic, but not nearly enough, and some seemed contradictory.

Yes, fixed volume is fine. This is how I use it.

a: Originally I had "fixed volume" disabled and Album Gain enabled. The volume slider seemed to move with each track in my Random Mix and adjust the volume. Turning Album Gain off (no gain adjust), the music would be at my usual play level (25% on the vol knob on my amp). With Album Gain on, huge amounts of volume loss were present, ushing me to 60% of the volume knob on my amp for the came perceived SPL.

Some music has a large negative gain (some modern pop I have seen is -12dB). Perhaps this was the issue?

c: After going back to it to test some more after listening, I realized no matter what combination of "fixed volume" on/off or track/album/none settins I used, there is no adjustment in the output levels. Even if I turn "fixed vol" off, put my volume at 50%, and set track or album gain on, there is no difference between on and off now, and the slider does not jump.

Have not experienced this... I would check the menu on the touch (in Settings) to make sure the setting has taken.

d: If I examine the "more info" details of any track in the playlist, the gain settings are still in the tags (so the server still has them stored.)

You will see these tags regardless of the settings.

I would have assumed that the ReplayGain support just doesn't work with the digital output and is for the internal DAC only, except that it seemed to work originally! That part has me confused.

I'd appreciate any ideas anyone may have!

It works just fine with the digital outputs. Sorry I can't pinpoint your exact problem.

[IEMCrazy3]

Some music has a large negative gain (some modern pop I have seen is -12dB). Perhaps this was the issue?

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I imagine it was, it was one of the hotter albums in the collection (a Fuel CD from the early 2000's.) Though the need to go to 60% volume versus 25% volume seemed to be consistent with replaygain on. That was without "fixed volume" turned on, though, and the volume slider was fairly low. Since RG should work with "Fixed Volume" as you say, I'm guessing the low volume issue was due to the slider setting.

The caveat is that using Foobar on a PC through a USB DAC on my loudspeaker system, there's also a notable drop in most CDs with RG on, so yes, it should be quieter with RG. The trouble is, now, it's not actually doing that at all!

So, for you, with "Fixed Volume (100%) on, setting the gain on/off definitely has a detectable impact?

Have not experienced this... I would check the menu on the touch (in Settings) to make sure the setting has taken.

Yes, the setting took. Even with "Fixed Volume" on, if you switch between "album" (or "track" or "smart") to "none" and back do you notice a volume difference in real-time? I did at first, but now there is no change. When I go back to the setting is still selected where I left it. If I hit it again, or hit another option there is no change in volume.

You will see these tags regardless of the settings.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that it meant the settings were working, I mentioned that just in case anyone's suggestion was going to be "maybe the SqueezeCenter server lost the RG tags and needs to be rescanned." I'd thought of that myself which is why I verified that already.

RG does work with FLAC right? It occurred to me that somewhere I saw some version of the server was transcoding FLAC instead of playing it back...but I think that was pre-Touch. My server is set to deliver FLAC as FLAC.

It works just fine with the digital outputs. Sorry I can't pinpoint your exact problem.

It's an odd problem. Especially since I "broke" it within three hours of owning it and the settings reset from either side didn't fix it.

I'm convinced that I must be overlooking something, or maybe there's a format difference and the first time I just stumbled into .ogg or something it worked on but it isn't working with FLAC or something. Though I think in my testing I went back to the album that it initially worked on.

[tufty]

Fixed volume (100%) with Replay Gain definitely works, as do FLAC files with the appropriate tags. (I think the gain adjustment is applied after whatever file is converted internally to PCM so is not restricted by format).

When playing with the Replay Gain options, it will not alter the playback volume of the currently playing song... you must replay the song to hear the effect of the settings.

Worth checking your Touch Settings menu to make sure that the setting is being applied there, since it is at that end that any gain is applied.

[IEMCrazy3]

Fixed volume (100%) with Replay Gain definitely works, as do FLAC files with the appropriate tags. (I think the gain adjustment is applied after whatever file is converted internally to PCM so is not restricted by format).

When playing with the Replay Gain options, it will not alter the playback volume of the currently playing song... you must replay the song to hear the effect of the settings.

Ahh, that may explain it. You may have hit the key! When I was initially playing with it and it was "working" was with fixed volume turned off. That's when I noticed that dramatic difference when switching during playback. I think later my tests with fixed on and off, when the volume slider wasn't changing, I wasn't restarting the song. I think my initial perception of it "working" was not ReplayGain's effect at all, but some other randomly changing volume slider issue.

I'll go back and try again this evening with re-selecting the song from the home->Music menu after changing the setting and see if there's a perceived difference.

I THINK I tried replaying the track...but maybe I'll try it by going back to the Home menu and selecting the song again to make sure it's really doing it.

Of course the audiophile in me always dreads the potential "quality loss" from RG...but I figure the kind of detail loss possible from a flat gain adjustment to a digital signal at 24-bit precision probably can't compare to the loss that always happens even in 6" analog cables and preamp tubes! And the way it will spare my ears (this is being used in a headphone setup) to allow me to hear ANY detail in 10 years time will be worth the potential subtle loss of microdynamics

Worth checking your Touch Settings menu to make sure that the setting is being applied there, since it is at that end that any gain is applied.

When you say checking the Touch Settings menu to make sure it's being applied, where do you mean to check? On the Settings->Audio->Volume Adjust menu where it was originally set? The setting does hold there, as well as on the server side's Settings->Player->(this player)->Audio Settings menu. If not those, you'll have to guide me to the right place

I'll be getting a second Touch to compare with as well. I really really like the first one. I'm moving from an iPod Touch running iPeng (SqueezePlayer) on a Pure i-20 dock. The Pure is really nice with the iPod solution, but the big, readable screen, nicer remote, and lack of the cruddy Apple async USB interface with all the clicks and pops in the audio is a nice change And in both cases I prefer SqueezeCenter to DLNA. It has so many more music-oriented features. And I don't have to worry about losing my music station when the battery dies


Thanks, your replies so far may have really isolated everything I needed to know to figure it out!

It may well be that my idea that it's "broken" was based on a combination of me misinterpreting whatever odd volume slider adjustment I had without "fixed volume" on as being the effect of ReplayGain, plus my looking for gain changes when switching without changing tracks.

Your info that it definitely works with fixed volume, and that it doesn't immediately change gain when playing may be the keys I needed! And I'm really glad it works with "fixed volume." Thanks!