psycho acoustics: the nightmare of listening tests

[vett93]

I've posted before that when I acquired my Touch almost 2 years ago, I synced and level-matched it against my existing SB3 with a Lavry DA-10 DAC. Over a listening period of several weeks I found I could not reliably tell which unit was playing unless I checked the position of the amp's input selector.

....

Were you comparing SBT's analog output vs. Lavry DAC's output? Did you use the stock PSU for SBT?

What are the rest of your components?

[evdplancke]

So far, I can conclude from the first few posts that the best test methodology is:
no test at all and enjoy the music! sounds wise isn't it?

[Soulkeeper]

Something called "good enough" does actually exist???

What a peculiar thread.

[evdplancke]

Something called "good enough" does actually exist???

What a peculiar thread.

Good enough...? Yes, when you start listening to music instead of worrying about what sounds wrong

[adamdea]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I have reached the same conclusion as you, but my particular take on it is that the starting point has to be the recognition that music sounds different every time you hear it, and that you have to be very wary about attributing that change to a change in the hifi. I am convinced that this accounts for 99% of all technically surprising subjective "findings".

I do not incidentally think that this means that all components sound the same. It is a sobering thought however that when you send your dac/sbt/whatever to be modded, then unless you have an unmodded one to hand you have bugger all chance of knowing whether the mod did anything.



Anyway, I remain of the view that if you have to tweak, it should be systematic eg by drc where you can at least identify what it is that you are going to achieve and whether you have done so. Of course the ultimate question of whether it sounds different to you is always going to be fiddly.

And I should add before this sounds too smug, that having rid myself of the urge to keep tweaking my stereo endlessly, I now have to cure myself of wasting endless time on audiophile forums discussing whether tweaking ones stereo is worthwhile.

[ralphpnj]

Very interesting thread and a wonderful post by the OP.

There is one thing which is in danger of getting lost in our collective rush to be as objective as possible: while there may not be the huge differences between different pieces of audio equipment there are still differences. Differences which can be anywhere from very subtle to very noticeable.

I feel that most of the differences exist between classes of equipment rather than between individual pieces of equipment. In other words, there is a very noticeable difference between a $200 power amp and a $5000 power amp but between two $200 power amps or between two $5000 power amps there is just not that much of difference.

And it gets even more complicated since the difference between an inexpensive power amp and an expensive power amp may not be discernible unless one is listening to them with expensive speakers. If one is using a pair of cheap speakers there may be no difference at all.

[mlsstl]

Were you comparing SBT's analog output vs. Lavry DAC's output? Did you use the stock PSU for SBT?

What are the rest of your components?

Correct. SBT analog out against the SB3/Lavry combo. And I use the stock power supply. (I've tried linear supplies and didn't find them worth it.)

My system is nothing fancy. The SBT feeds an Image Audio 65i with KT88 outputs (50 watts/channel) and a pair of Spendor SP1/2E speakers. Perhaps not "audiophile" for many, but I happen to enjoy the way it plays music. ;-)

[Soulkeeper]

In other words, there is a very noticeable difference between a $200 power amp and a $5000 power amp but between two $200 power amps or between two $5000 power amps there is just not that much of difference.

But I hope that the difference between two $5000 power amps is smaller than the difference between two $200 power amps. There ought to be some kind of standard (and I think there is, at least to some degree).

[magiccarpetride]

It's way too easy in this hobby to become obsessive/compulsive over the equipment.

That's true, but the way you put it, sounds like you feel that it could be a problem. Why?

The reason we go into hobbies is precisely to cultivate obsessive-compulsive disorders. That way, life becomes laced with spice. Otherwise, you may just as well obtain a degree in accounting and then get buried alive in your spreadsheets for the rest of your life.

My much bigger hobby (way, way bigger than audio neurosa) is collecting vintage guitar and bass guitar equipment. In that hobby, we obsess over excruciating minutia over every tiny little spec on the guitar or the amp. Is it a maple fretboard, are the pickups hand-wound, etc. But no one calls us crazy, because that's just something we guitar heads love to do. No harm, no foul, we piss away our own hard earned money, we concoct our own outlandish claims, and no one ridicules us for that.

But in the world of audio, there is so much maliciousness as this sector seems to attract many broken, maladjusted individuals who have obvious difficulties socializing. At least us guitar heads are gregarious, we like to congregate and talk shop, play some rock licks, drink beer, ogle chicks...

[TheOctavist]

But I hope that the difference between two $5000 power amps is smaller than the difference between two $200 power amps. There ought to be some kind of standard (and I think there is, at least to some degree).

actually there isn't much difference at all between ANY two SS amps run within their operating parameters. I defy anyone i mean ANYONE to ID them double blind.

I went with Bryston for the warranty(10 years) and Mastersound because it is euphonic(not accurate, but I use it with vinyl anyway, so no hope of accuracy!) and I got it cheap.