psycho acoustics: the nightmare of listening tests

[ralphpnj]

Getting lost

Very interesting thread and a wonderful post by the OP.

There is one thing which is in danger of getting lost in our collective rush to be as objective as possible: while there may not be the huge differences between different pieces of audio equipment there are still differences. Differences which can be anywhere from very subtle to very noticeable.

I feel that most of the differences exist between classes of equipment rather than between individual pieces of equipment. In other words, there is a very noticeable difference between a $200 power amp and a $5000 power amp but between two $200 power amps or between two $5000 power amps there is just not that much of difference.

And it gets even more complicated since the difference between an inexpensive power amp and an expensive power amp may not be discernible unless one is listening to them with expensive speakers. If one is using a pair of cheap speakers there may be no difference at all.

[mlsstl]

Were you comparing SBT's analog output vs. Lavry DAC's output? Did you use the stock PSU for SBT?

What are the rest of your components?

Correct. SBT analog out against the SB3/Lavry combo. And I use the stock power supply. (I've tried linear supplies and didn't find them worth it.)

My system is nothing fancy. The SBT feeds an Image Audio 65i with KT88 outputs (50 watts/channel) and a pair of Spendor SP1/2E speakers. Perhaps not "audiophile" for many, but I happen to enjoy the way it plays music. ;-)

[Soulkeeper]

In other words, there is a very noticeable difference between a $200 power amp and a $5000 power amp but between two $200 power amps or between two $5000 power amps there is just not that much of difference.

But I hope that the difference between two $5000 power amps is smaller than the difference between two $200 power amps. There ought to be some kind of standard (and I think there is, at least to some degree).

[magiccarpetride]

It's way too easy in this hobby to become obsessive/compulsive over the equipment.

That's true, but the way you put it, sounds like you feel that it could be a problem. Why?

The reason we go into hobbies is precisely to cultivate obsessive-compulsive disorders. That way, life becomes laced with spice. Otherwise, you may just as well obtain a degree in accounting and then get buried alive in your spreadsheets for the rest of your life.

My much bigger hobby (way, way bigger than audio neurosa) is collecting vintage guitar and bass guitar equipment. In that hobby, we obsess over excruciating minutia over every tiny little spec on the guitar or the amp. Is it a maple fretboard, are the pickups hand-wound, etc. But no one calls us crazy, because that's just something we guitar heads love to do. No harm, no foul, we piss away our own hard earned money, we concoct our own outlandish claims, and no one ridicules us for that.

But in the world of audio, there is so much maliciousness as this sector seems to attract many broken, maladjusted individuals who have obvious difficulties socializing. At least us guitar heads are gregarious, we like to congregate and talk shop, play some rock licks, drink beer, ogle chicks...

[TheOctavist]

But I hope that the difference between two $5000 power amps is smaller than the difference between two $200 power amps. There ought to be some kind of standard (and I think there is, at least to some degree).

actually there isn't much difference at all between ANY two SS amps run within their operating parameters. I defy anyone i mean ANYONE to ID them double blind.

I went with Bryston for the warranty(10 years) and Mastersound because it is euphonic(not accurate, but I use it with vinyl anyway, so no hope of accuracy!) and I got it cheap.

[TheOctavist]

T
But in the world of audio, there is so much maliciousness as this sector seems to attract many broken, maladjusted individuals who have obvious difficulties socializing. At least us guitar heads are gregarious, we like to congregate and talk shop, play some rock licks, drink beer, ogle chicks...

it isn't malicious to state facts..or to try to teach those that are ignorant. it is for their own good. (and for the good of those who will be led like rats (the new naive guys) by people like you and SBGK wailing about shakti stones and server optimizations. )

[magiccarpetride]

it isn't malicious to state facts..or to try to teach those that are ignorant. it is for their own good. (and for the good of those who will be led like rats (the new naive guys) by people like you and SBGK wailing about shakti stones and server optimizations. )

Calling someone a troll is not stating facts. It is an uncalled-for personal attack.

[ralphpnj]

But I hope that the difference between two $5000 power amps is smaller than the difference between two $200 power amps. There ought to be some kind of standard (and I think there is, at least to some degree).

Good point but I can't answer that question. Now of course if one $5,000 amp was some flea powered tube amp and the other amp a 200 watt per channel solid state model, well then all bets are off.

And of course since we're talking about high end audio, a third $5,000 amp could just be a $200 amp in some fancy aircraft grade aluminum case with an equally fancy name badge. (Think Luxman)

[Phil Leigh]

Good point but I can't answer that question. Now of course if one $5,000 amp was some flea powered tube amp and the other amp a 200 watt per channel solid state model, well then all bets are off.

And of course since we're talking about high end audio, a third $5,000 amp could just be a $200 amp in some fancy aircraft grade aluminum case with an equally fancy name badge. (Think Luxman)

ALL 5k aolid state amps are. 200£ amps in fancy boxes. It's the box that costs For valve amps you can at le ast treble the parts cost - good output transformers and valves are expensive.

[pski]

ALL 5k aolid state amps are. 200£ amps in fancy boxes. It's the box that costs For valve amps you can at le ast treble the parts cost - good output transformers and valves are expensive.

Ignorance is bliss: I've always been impressed with Mark Levinson power amps (that are not located in Lexus cars.) Since my main speakers are the world's hungriest, accurate .5-1 ohm is really enticing.

Of course, they are now owned (like everything that used-to-be-sacred) by Harman Industries. These things happen.

Electrocompaniet driving Focals was also impressive since the room was totally wrong (long side in front and back and the size of mobile home LR. Well no more than 12' x 16')

P

<I say this because I've never heard a ML system in a Lexus>

[darrenyeats]

it isn't malicious to state facts..or to try to teach those that are ignorant. it is for their own good. (and for the good of those who will be led like rats (the new naive guys) by people like you and SBGK wailing about shakti stones and server optimizations. )

TheOctavist,
You are clearly a raving objectivist but am I the first to notice the TT mods in your signature?!

[ralphpnj]

ALL 5k aolid state amps are. 200£ amps in fancy boxes. It's the box that costs For valve amps you can at le ast treble the parts cost - good output transformers and valves are expensive.

I don't think so. I own a very nice $5,000 power amp which is definitely not a $200 power amp in fancy clothes. Is the amp worth $5k, no I don't think so which is why I bought it used for substantially less than the new retail price. However I do believe that most $5,000 amps should at least have very parts quality and be built to last a long time without going out of spec.

[mlsstl]

That's true, but the way you put it, sounds like you feel that it could be a problem. Why?

The reason we go into hobbies is precisely to cultivate obsessive-compulsive disorders. That way, life becomes laced with spice. Otherwise, you may just as well obtain a degree in accounting and then get buried alive in your spreadsheets for the rest of your life.

My much bigger hobby (way, way bigger than audio neurosa) is collecting vintage guitar and bass guitar equipment. In that hobby, we obsess over excruciating minutia over every tiny little spec on the guitar or the amp. Is it a maple fretboard, are the pickups hand-wound, etc. But no one calls us crazy, because that's just something we guitar heads love to do. No harm, no foul, we piss away our own hard earned money, we concoct our own outlandish claims, and no one ridicules us for that.

But in the world of audio, there is so much maliciousness as this sector seems to attract many broken, maladjusted individuals who have obvious difficulties socializing. At least us guitar heads are gregarious, we like to congregate and talk shop, play some rock licks, drink beer, ogle chicks...

A couple of comments. I think you've conflated two different things.

First, musical instruments are about "making" music rather than reproducing it. (Though I wouldn't find it surprising that at least some audiophiles fancy the sophistication and nuance of their equipment and tweak choices are at the same level of importance as that of the original composer and artist(s).)

Second, "vintage instrument" collecting has the issues of: 1) is the item an original or fake?; and 2) has it been modified or repaired? Those qualities are common to collecting activity, whether classic cars or 16th century oil on canvas paintings.

No collector wastes his time claiming his 1958 MG Roadster will beat a modern sports car in a race. That's not the point. The collector simply likes what he likes.

These endless audiophilia debates are more akin to the "Ford vs Chevy" arguments I used to hear back in high school.

I don't care that people spend their money on what they like, but the part I find odd is that it is the "subjectivists" who seemed most determined to declare there cannot possibly be a subjective reason for their preferences - it must be rooted in some incredibly obscure aspect of physics. It's simply not good enough to like what one likes.

[TheOctavist]

TheOctavist,
You are clearly a raving objectivist but am I the first to notice the TT mods in your signature?!

see the tt 3.0 thread.

did loads of dbt today. no difference with or without, stock psu or linear.


i jumped on tt bandwagon hastily. it provided no benefit..so back to stock for me.

[totoro]

Calling someone a troll is not stating facts. It is an uncalled-for personal attack.

If the person behaves like a troll, pointing it out isn't an unwarranted attack. Reality isn't optional