LMS moving forward?

[erland]

Make the scanning better in about a 100 different ways.

It's must be so good that end users do not notice other than the time spent at the initial scan, this should be the only full scan ever needed. Adding incrementally over the years should give you the exact identical dB as scanning the whole lot agian with the exceptions of the added dates .

Do not force rescans with updates build software that migrates old dB to new dB .

Store all information it's a dB rigth, do not rescan because some setting change for the UI on how to include or present artist or anything like that. It's for the aplication itself to fix this not the dB.

Do not crash the scanner, note " flawed " files in the scanner logs in human readable form with a fault description that makes sense to end users to ( of course keep the current info on where in the code it went wrong ) .
After not crashing it goes on building a dB with files it can read, so the user always end up with a usable system .

Do not interupt music playback when scanning ! Ever .

Make it yet again possible to BMF while scanning.

db should be avaible gradually so that you could start using lms while the dB is still being built.


Upgrades ? Keep mysqueezebox.com backwards compatible at least 2 major realeses . Users that do not upgrade can ofcourse not use new services or functionality or bugfixes.

Scanning and upgrades is many users main complains about the software, they are afraid of upgrades because they anticipate scanning problems to ? And the smattering of new bugs with each version.

While I agree on the quality assurance part I don't agree on that we need more technical improvements.

In my system, scanning is like less than 1% of the total usage time and more than 99% is spend on listening to the music. I'd like improvements related to those 99% instead of putting all focus on something the system do less than 1% of the time.

Also, in my setup, when I get a new CD I spend at least 10 minutes of ripping and tagging, often more if the CD isn't already available with metadata on Musicbrainz, after this I spend a few minutes maximum to scan it into the library. It would help me a lot more if I got improvements of the ripping/tagging part instead of the scanning part as the ripping and tagging usually takes more time.

Of course, many people today doesn't purchase CD's they get their music as an electronic download or through a streaming service. In the case of streaming service, which is probably quite common, scanning isn't even involved at all. In the case of electronic download I'm fairly sure you rarely get scanning problems because those files aren't corrupt or encoded in incompatible ways.

So my wish would be to focus on the stuff that matters, basically, focus on stuff which is relevant when you listen to music instead of focus on something that takes up 1% of the total usage time.

[Mnyb]

While I agree on the quality assurance part I don't agree on that we need more technical improvements.

In my system, scanning is like less than 1% of the total usage time and more than 99% is spend on listening to the music. I'd like improvements related to those 99% instead of putting all focus on something the system do less than 1% of the time.

Also, in my setup, when I get a new CD I spend at least 10 minutes of ripping and tagging, often more if the CD isn't already available with metadata on Musicbrainz, after this I spend a few minutes maximum to scan it into the library. It would help me a lot more if I got improvements of the ripping/tagging part instead of the scanning part as the ripping and tagging usually takes more time.

Of course, many people today doesn't purchase CD's they get their music as an electronic download or through a streaming service. In the case of streaming service, which is probably quite common, scanning isn't even involved at all. In the case of electronic download I'm fairly sure you rarely get scanning problems because those files aren't corrupt or encoded in incompatible ways.

So my wish would be to focus on the stuff that matters, basically, focus on stuff which is relevant when you listen to music instead of focus on something that takes up 1% of the total usage time.

Yes if the 1% worked wo trouble for everyone I'm with you, make it " thar scanner shall not crash, or produce corrupt dB " and then move on the 1% becomes a concern when it does not work.

Given the resources they should have ( but does not ) my humble sugestion falls within " maintanience" .

Re corrupt files my recent comercial dl had corrupt modification dates ranging from unknown to 1970 to 2031 etc ( I fixed tags but did not consider checking the dates on the files ).
I happlesly scanned those and the system was not itself anymore no other rescan worked after that of any other new music with perfectly fine
files, it crashed on every rescan after that ?
A clear and rescan ofcourse fixed it there is a reason why many users actually shedule complete rescans all the time, because the changed scan does not cut it, for example cover art files.

[pawelkrz]

I can assure you that Logitech is supporting Squeezebox more than ever, and we are working on several things behind the scenes. For example, we have some large projects in the works to scale up MySB that will not be visible to users (unless we screw it up

Hope you have hardware projects too... Boom II, Touch II ...

Btw. have 150+GB FLAC on USB attached to TOUCH and never had problems with LMS... streaming to Radio and even squeezeplay 5000km away from the Touch ;-).

[tamanaco]

I can assure you that Logitech is supporting Squeezebox more than ever, and we are working on several things behind the scenes. For example, we have some large projects in the works to scale up MySB that will not be visible to users (unless we screw it up

Glad to hear that there is something going on behind the scenes. As I said, I'd like to be proven wrong.

I think before long you will see the replacement for the Revue that will be making use of LMS.

I doubt that we'll see a new Revue. Logitech is getting out of that business (category)... Here is an excerpt of what Logitech recently told investors:
"A major factor in the 8 percent decline in the Americas sales compared to the prior year was Logitech Revue for GoogleTV. We began shipments of Logitech Revue in Q3 of the prior year and delivered sales of $22M that quarter. Sales of Logitech Revue this year were down by $15M due to the combination of a significant price reduction in Q2 of this fiscal year and our previously announced intention to exit the category. We are now sold out of all new Logitech Revue units."

[MrSinatra]

it seems to me that they need a new, cheaper piece of hardware, that has no display, that will do audio and video.

sound familiar? i said it years and years ago. apparently apple was eavesdropping.

given that server does video now, and dlna, the above just seems so obvious to me. if apple can sell a tiny box for $99 that does 720p, surely logitech can figure out how to do 1080p for a few dollars more?

THATS how they need to compete and become relevant. if "syncing" is all they got, they're done.

[bernt]

Two "small" wishes.

1. AirPlay.

2. Publish my local LMS library to mySB.net so I can stream my music to a SB over internet.

Just like myPlexapp works. https://my.plexapp.com/

[erland]

it seems to me that they need a new, cheaper piece of hardware, that has no display, that will do audio and video.

sound familiar? i said it years and years ago. apparently apple was eavesdropping.

given that server does video now, and dlna, the above just seems so obvious to me. if apple can sell a tiny box for $99 that does 720p, surely logitech can figure out how to do 1080p for a few dollars more?

THATS how they need to compete and become relevant. if "syncing" is all they got, they're done.

You are forgetting something, there are three main things that makes AppleTV a device people consider to buy:
- AirPlay (Making it possible to show the iPad/iPhone image/sound on the TV)
- iTunes Store (Making it possible to purchase/rent media via device)
- Netflix (Making it possible to view premium video content for a monthly fee)

Without these three things, the AppleTV would be pretty useless. The same also applies to a similar device from Logitech. It's pointless to do video unless you also support some backend media providers. So if Logitech ever wants to do video again, they have to make sure they have some media providers available which provides content to the system, I'm pretty sure this is one of the things which caused Revue to fail, just providing support for local media files on a computer/NAS is not enough these days.

Also, based on their experience with the Duet, I'm not sure Logitech ever want to do another device completely without a display. A simple LED or LCD display will make it so much easier for the support staff to investigate problems. Of course, as long as you have a TV output you should be able to use the TV for troubleshooting, so this is where video support gets important if the devices doesn't have its own display.

[verypsb]

Also, based on their experience with the Duet, I'm not sure Logitech ever want to do another device completely without a display

Well, doesn't do Sonos devices without a display quite succesfully? I don't think the lack of the display is the problem, but the really awkward setup with the duet/receiver. Logitech should support setup from LMS/SN.

[Mnyb]

Well, doesn't do Sonos devices without a display quite succesfully? I don't think the lack of the display is the problem, but the really awkward setup with the duet/receiver. Logitech should support setup from LMS/SN.

Or a buildt in web-page in the unit just like a router or 1000 of other devices you hook up.

But none of this solve the basic problem . To be reached by LMS /SN it must already been setup at least the ethernet/wifi part .

Ehternet is easy you just plug it in and it gets assigned ip via dhcp .

But to type in a wifi password you must type on something and see what you are typing .

You could ofcourse set it up by first connect it via ethernet and then type in you wifi settings .

And the whole mysqueezebox.com account speil could be performed on a webpage after you do that.

But it is simpler to type rigth on the device.

[bits]

I dont think Logitech really want to try and take the AppleTV product head on. They already said they hated GoogleTV and wouldnt be going back.

AppleTV and GoogleTV boxes are just stop gaps until people upgrade their tv's. The new TV's include all those features already plus a boat load more. So they are a dead end for someone like Logitech who isnt in the TV market. 2 years and the AppleTV device will disappear and devalue just like your digital tv set top box.

Squeezebox as a product has worked great for Logitech, regardless of how much you guys seem to swear it has been horrible for them. It sits nicely in the market with basically only the Sonos competing against it. Very few products come to mind with the advanced feature set, small form factor and usability.

A squeezebox with video support will only survive if it does something new, something your smart TV sucks at or doesnt do at all. For audio its a no brainer, the tv's always lack decent playlist support, wide content support and small form factor. For video where can the Squeezebox find some room for itself to sit in the market? People tend not to have a 10,000+ file video library with perfect naming/tagging, without mass libraries many of the TV interfaces are adequate, there is squat all decent content providers not already covered by the smart TV's and many smart TV's support all the file format anyone cares about currently.

[MrSinatra]

You are forgetting something,

i didn't forget, i just didn't explicitly state everything, b/c i figured some of it was obvious and not really the point i was trying to make anyway.

there are three main things that makes AppleTV a device people consider to buy:
- AirPlay (Making it possible to show the iPad/iPhone image/sound on the TV)
- iTunes Store (Making it possible to purchase/rent media via device)
- Netflix (Making it possible to view premium video content for a monthly fee)

agreed, as well as local itunes files. but logitech knows this, as evidenced by the many audio partners server has, so i'd assume if they added video, they'd add video partners as well. while they won't be able to do something as flexible as airplay, their solution is for people who don't want to do apple anyway.

Without these three things, the AppleTV would be pretty useless. The same also applies to a similar device from Logitech. It's pointless to do video unless you also support some backend media providers. So if Logitech ever wants to do video again, they have to make sure they have some media providers available which provides content to the system, I'm pretty sure this is one of the things which caused Revue to fail, just providing support for local media files on a computer/NAS is not enough these days.

agreed, and if the revue had been done right with an open market, they could have used apps to do that stuff.

Also, based on their experience with the Duet, I'm not sure Logitech ever want to do another device completely without a display. A simple LED or LCD display will make it so much easier for the support staff to investigate problems. Of course, as long as you have a TV output you should be able to use the TV for troubleshooting, so this is where video support gets important if the devices doesn't have its own display.

exactly. i don't see any problem with this at all. apple tv sets up easy as pie with a simple 3 button remote. logitech needs to make a CHEAP audio/video adapter, and so i see no need at all for a built in display on the cheapest model.

Well, doesn't do Sonos devices without a display quite succesfully? I don't think the lack of the display is the problem, but the really awkward setup with the duet/receiver. Logitech should support setup from LMS/SN.

agreed, but the initial wifi setup should be via remote and TV.

Or a buildt in web-page in the unit just like a router or 1000 of other devices you hook up.

But none of this solve the basic problem . To be reached by LMS /SN it must already been setup at least the ethernet/wifi part .

Ehternet is easy you just plug it in and it gets assigned ip via dhcp .

But to type in a wifi password you must type on something and see what you are typing .

You could ofcourse set it up by first connect it via ethernet and then type in you wifi settings .

And the whole mysqueezebox.com account speil could be performed on a webpage after you do that.

But it is simpler to type rigth on the device.

see above, just use the TV and a simple remote.

I dont think Logitech really want to try and take the AppleTV product head on. They already said they hated GoogleTV and wouldnt be going back.

i'm talking about just a media adapter, which is really all apple tv is, lots of companies make them, but logitech has the chance to make one that has a server thats better than what other companies offer.

if logitech thinks it can continue to develop SB as a niche audio product, i think its gonna die. already we've seen devs cut right and left on it.

AppleTV and GoogleTV boxes are just stop gaps until people upgrade their tv's. The new TV's include all those features already plus a boat load more. So they are a dead end for someone like Logitech who isnt in the TV market. 2 years and the AppleTV device will disappear and devalue just like your digital tv set top box.

Squeezebox as a product has worked great for Logitech, regardless of how much you guys seem to swear it has been horrible for them. It sits nicely in the market with basically only the Sonos competing against it. Very few products come to mind with the advanced feature set, small form factor and usability.

A squeezebox with video support will only survive if it does something new, something your smart TV sucks at or doesnt do at all. For audio its a no brainer, the tv's always lack decent playlist support, wide content support and small form factor. For video where can the Squeezebox find some room for itself to sit in the market? People tend not to have a 10,000+ file video library with perfect naming/tagging, without mass libraries many of the TV interfaces are adequate, there is squat all decent content providers not already covered by the smart TV's and many smart TV's support all the file format anyone cares about currently.

i disagree. most TVs suck at dlna/audio and video. apple tv does it very well, but u gotta use itunes.

i think a lot of people want a product that can do audio and video well, but that can also do audio without the TV on, and without itunes.

one other thing i really think the server needs to do is accept the computers sound card output, and send it to the hardware. that would allow people to use their own software with the hardware. i think there are some 3rd party ways to do that, but it should be part of the core app and easy imo. doing the same thing with video, and or keeping the audio sync'd with video is a more difficult proposition, i understand that.

[MrSinatra]

http://www.roku.com/netflixplayer/default.aspx?pid=16122&ais=ApN&mpm=CPM&cid=${CP_CO DE}&n_crid=1265068

[erland]

http://www.roku.com/netflixplayer/default.aspx?pid=16122&ais=ApN&mpm=CPM&cid=${CP_CO DE}&n_crid=1265068

I guess it depends on if you mostly listen to locally stored media or if you mostly listen to stuff on various streaming services. As I understood, it's somewhat possible to use local media with the Roku player through Roksbox but it looked like the browsing was limited to browse by folder. Except for Roksbox I think the Roku player is currently only focused at online media which results in that it has a disadvantage compared to for example an AppleTV.

It also depends on if you want a "all in one" box that supports everything or if you want a dedicated box that can do one thing really good. For me personally, in same ways as I want dedicated devices in my audio equipment, I also want a dedicated box for music. The simple explanation is just that a dedicated music box will always do music better than an "all in one" box that also supports video. Music listening is also very different from viewing videos, so based on that someone still needs to convince me that it's a good idea to combine these.

However, from a mass market perspective, I suspect an "all in one" box might be more popular because the mass market really doesn't care about quality. If they can get an all in one box that works "good enough" with both music and video that's what most people prefer. The question is just if it's a good idea to start focus on video when the limited number of resources currently available for Squeezebox development barely is able to handle support for music.

The Revue was an "all in one" box by the way, which supported a lot of things, among other things DLNA, and I'm still not convinced that the Revue was a success...

[Mnyb]

Re use tv , 1 have one and it's a projector my other 3 boxes are not close to a TV. Setup a music streamer via TV ? Not for me.

I'm still curius to what they are up to Is LMs going t be a more complete media managment system ? A new product ?

They have tried autoscanning of new stuff ( abandoned ) .

Automatic artwork downloading , abandoned due to lack of partner to provide art .

Do I dare suggest the ( optional ) ability to fix tags ?

[erland]

I'm still curius to what they are up to Is LMs going t be a more complete media managment system ? A new product ?

They have tried autoscanning of new stuff ( abandoned ) .

Automatic artwork downloading , abandoned due to lack of partner to provide art .

Do I dare suggest the ( optional ) ability to fix tags ?

Something which they can earn money on and something which makes Squeezebox more attractive to mass market users.

This probably either means new hardware or support for some new premium streaming services. Based on this I also think that except for bug fixing, we can probably expect the focus to either be on the player side (new hardware) or on the mysqueezebox.com side (support for new streaming services).

But this is just a guess, I might be completely wrong.

I don't think we should expect LMS to be turned into a complete media management system, too big investment and too little money to earn for them.