Squeezebox Server --> Media Server but... what's really new?

[toby10]

.......
But I don't see any problems in discussing features or functions, whichever they may be, that are only interesting to a minority of users. I have no idea how many SB's have been sold, or users are out there, but I am pretty sure that even a minority may mean thousands in some cases. But this is a totally pointless discussion to have since none of us can know for sure, and all it can be is an opinion........

No problem at all in discussing it, that is what we are doing in here.

But it is very important if you want any help from Logitech. There are very popular bugs and enhancement requests that have not been touched by the developers due to lack of time & resources. Therefore their interest level in devoting more time & resources to non-SB players could be a crucial factor. Especially if that development affects very few users, may harm hardware sales, and only applies to non-SB players.

[toby10]

Andrue & PasTRim,
Keep in mind LMS currently has no video transcoding, if you need/use that in TVersity.
Whether they plan on adding this to LMS I dunno.

[toby10]

......

I would rather try to figure out what is possible or not, than discuss popularity which is purely subjective anyway. The only items brought up so far (the list may grow or shrink) that would be lacking if my idea could be realized are:
1. Plugin solution - may not be allowed by Logitech, but could be overcome in a different way perhaps
2. Sync - would be difficult or impossible
3. Mysb.com - not impossible but could be blocked by Logitech
4. Paid media - not impossible but could be blocked for copyright reasons
5. Cross Fade - difficult or probably impossible since it is a HW feature, unless it's available in DLNA. Maby it could be achieved through digital mixing but the server must be able to acknowledge it then...

Also keep in mind that some (maybe all) of the SB plugins may not be usable to DLNA clients either. It is unknown exactly how LMS will handle DLNA clients.

If I were you and I had your interest level in DLNA usage with SB & LMS I'd but together a list of questions for the LMS developers, post it in a different LMS thread. Some basics that will need to be known:

1. Will DLNA clients be recognized as SB players?
2. What SB/LMS features will DLNA clients have access too?
3. Will LMS do transcoding with DLNA clients? Ex: FLAC files, my DLNA client can't play them, how will LMS handle this?
4. Will DLNA clients be restricted to only the LMS music library (i.e. simple file/folder navigation?)
5. Will DLNA clients be seen and controllable via the LMS web UI?

I'm sure there are a number of other questions, but the first two are crucial to the question at hand in this discussion. For example, if the anser to #1 is no (which is currently the state of DLNA clients on LMS) then much of what you are proposing is a moot point.

[Gblenn]

No problem at all in discussing it, that is what we are doing in here.

But it is very important if you want any help from Logitech. There are very popular bugs and enhancement requests that have not been touched by the developers due to lack of time & resources. Therefore their interest level in devoting more time & resources to non-SB players could be a crucial factor. Especially if that development affects very few users, may harm hardware sales, and only applies to non-SB players.

I am aware of that little issue, one sometimes have to possess a lot of patience and perseverance as a user. Luckily with many products there is some aspect of open source or similar that allows others to develop and improve the products as well.
And frankly I do have more hopes in that direction than with Logitech themselves. If they truly want LMS to develop towards handling other media like Pictures and Video in particular, they have a huge task ahead of them.
Specifically in the area of transcoding...
And then my little idea, and others, will certainly not gain any priority. The issue is of course as you say that many bugs are still not being addressed...

[Gblenn]

Also keep in mind that some (maybe all) of the SB plugins may not be usable to DLNA clients either. It is unknown exactly how LMS will handle DLNA clients.

If I were you and I had your interest level in DLNA usage with SB & LMS I'd but together a list of questions for the LMS developers, post it in a different LMS thread. Some basics that will need to be known:

1. Will DLNA clients be recognized as SB players?
2. What SB/LMS features will DLNA clients have access too?

I agree 100% which is also why I am putting my hope in the direction of independent development rather than Logitech implementing my idea.

If you track back to my posts, the idea is really to hide DLNA from LMS/SBS. I said in another response that you could perhaps see the DLNA device as a networked DAC. Pretty much like when you connect an external DAC to the Touch today, only I suggest to use a modified Softplayer to make that connection happen. And it happens over WiFi or Ethernet instead of Spdif or USB.

That way LMS/SBS sees an SB device, not a DLNA device and item 1 is bypassed. And by doing this you would basically get access to any and all functions that you have already today with a Softplayer, which becomes the answer to number 2.

3. Will LMS do transcoding with DLNA clients? Ex: FLAC files, my DLNA client can't play them, how will LMS handle this?
4. Will DLNA clients be restricted to only the LMS music library (i.e. simple file/folder navigation?)
5. Will DLNA clients be seen and controllable via the LMS web UI?

So if you have hidden the DLNA client from SBS, the rest of the points should be possible to solve right?

No 3. Transcoding can, and most likely must, happen at the "proxy" rather than be handled by LMS. Whitebear does this already today...
Actually another way of handling it could perhaps be to "report back" what file type is requested based on the DLNA negotiation at the beginning of the setup. So the Softplayer just mimics the DLNA device's capabilities towards LMS and LMS does the transcoding (less coding at the proxy then).

No 4. The answer is since SBS/LMS sees a softplayer, it should have access to the same things that a Softplayer does (which has some limitations but not only to local media)

No 5. Yes since you are essentially controlling the Softplayer, not the DLNA device (save for Volume changes and perhaps something more if it makes sense). So control is basically done in the same way we do today; Web UI, Controller, Android or iOS device...

[Edit]Perhaps we shouldn't talk all the time about controlling the Player, although it feels like that is what is happening. In most cases it is actually the Server that is being controlled, creating playlists, selecting and streaming web radio etc. The parts that truly involve control of the player are quite basic, volume up/down, on/off and probably Crossfading.

[toby10]

.........
So if you have hidden the DLNA client from SBS, the rest of the points should be possible to solve right?.......

No, just the opposite. Unless LMS sees the DLNA client as an actual connected player then you have elimnated all features of LMS. No plugins, no apps, no player control, no favorites, no sync, no iPeng .... nothing. And this is exactly how it is now.

Currently my DLNA device connects to LMS, can fully navigate the media files (music, video, pics). But nowhere within LMS is it showing as a connected device. Not in the web UI nor in Settings > Information. I suspect they are sandboxing (for lack of a better word) DLNA clients and LMS is communicating with these DLNA clients on a different port than are the SB players. Whether this is temporary as a first attempt at LMS + DLNA or whether this is just how DLNA works or whether this is a specific LMS design to restrict DLNA due to the many issues raised in this discussion, I have no idea.

But that is why I think it is very important for you to pose such critical questions to the actual LMS developers on here.

[Gblenn]

No, just the opposite. Unless LMS sees the DLNA client as an actual connected player then you have elimnated all features of LMS. No plugins, no apps, no player control, no favorites, no sync, no iPeng .... nothing. And this is exactly how it is now.

What does it matter to SBS (let's forget LMS for a little while now) what the player is called as long as it shows up as a player. When I say the Physical device (the DLNA player) is hidden, SBS still sees the Softplayer that sits in between as the proxy.
So the Softplayer, not SBS, would have to detect the DLNA player and make the connection on that end. At the same time it would also register with SBS and show up in the list as it does today. SBS sees a Player (soft) and doesn't know the "sound" is forwarded to a "networked DAC" that happens to be a DLNA device.
So then why would SBS need to actually be aware of the DLNA device, it is no more aware of the DAC you connect to your Touch? It would however need to get certain information about it, such as it's capabilities for transcoding perhaps. Depending on how much intelligence should be included in the proxy...

[Gblenn]

Currently my DLNA device connects to LMS, can fully navigate the media files (music, video, pics). But nowhere within LMS is it showing as a connected device. Not in the web UI nor in Settings > Information. I suspect they are sandboxing (for lack of a better word) DLNA clients and LMS is communicating with these DLNA clients on a different port than are the SB players. Whether this is temporary as a first attempt at LMS + DLNA or whether this is just how DLNA works or whether this is a specific LMS design to restrict DLNA due to the many issues raised in this discussion, I have no idea

And I know that, and I have been trying every which way to explain that I am NOT proposing to use the current DLNA functionality of LMS as is. Nor am I proposing to use Whitebear as is, nor am I proposing to use a Softplayer as is. What would be the point of that?

Your description here is of course completely true and correct, everyone can test that today. And I would suspect that this is the way Logitech intends to play it due to the strategic reasons discussed.

But my suggestion is about putting something in between SBS and DLNA where you retain the functions of SBS as much as possible. I have been using the word proxy repeatedly, consider the word for a moment... that is what I am talking about here. Something that talks SBS and acts on behalf of the DLNA device and is able to translate between them.

[toby10]

Yeah, sure sounds simple. Except that the software player you propose would have to be coded as an actual SB player just as the current SB software players are.
Have you asked Logitech for the keys to accomplish this?

There are numerous posts in here going back to 2007 (maybe earlier, that's when I started here) about the limitations of the officially supported software players. Yet I have not seen any third party replacement software player offered to circumvent these official software player's shortcomings. My guess is because there is a protected code/key in ALL SB players to prevent non-SB players from accessing certain aspects of their server. Like not connecting to MySB.com with a non-SB player, for example.

[Gblenn]

Yeah, sure sounds simple. Except that the software player you propose would have to be coded as an actual SB player just as the current SB software players are.
Have you asked Logitech for the keys to accomplish this?

There are numerous posts in here going back to 2007 (maybe earlier, that's when I started here) about the limitations of the officially supported software players. Yet I have not seen any third party replacement software player offered to circumvent these official software player's shortcomings. My guess is because there is a protected code/key in ALL SB players to prevent non-SB players from accessing certain aspects of their server. Like not connecting to MySB.com with a non-SB player, for example.

Ok, so that is of course some new and very important information.

However, unless Logitech would actually blocks such a function, then worst case the limitations are the same as for the current softplayers. For example Squeezeplayer which is community supported 3rd party alternative might be a good candidate. Or perhaps the vortexbox player which might be the most competent of them.