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  1. #1
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    What's the Connection? Community and Logitech

    The ongoing 7.6 fiasco set me thinking. Just what is the connection between this Forum and Logitech? Just seems that some posters here seem to have 'insider' knowledge, and certainly the Logitech support staff often direct queries here.

    I think some clarificaton of any 'relationships' would be useful for many users.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Phil Leigh's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    The ongoing 7.6 fiasco set me thinking. Just what is the connection between this Forum and Logitech? Just seems that some posters here seem to have 'insider' knowledge, and certainly the Logitech support staff often direct queries here.

    I think some clarificaton of any 'relationships' would be useful for many users.
    Why do you care?
    This is NOT the official Logitech support forum; AndyG and Michael Herger are Logitech employees / devs who post here as does Mickey Gee (occasionally). A lot of vital work goes through this forum in terms of beta testing software and hardware. Also, third-party plugins are supported through here.
    Some of us have been on here for many years and have an in-depth knowledge of various aspects of the products.

    This is a self-help forum and one of the best of its kind IME.

    It is NOT the place for unproductive emotional rants or moaning about bugs or other matters - that should go on the official forum.

    What else do you need to know?
    You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...
    Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
    Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
    Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

  3. #3
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    Thanks.

    The total lack of any responses to posts on the Logitech Forum to the 7.6 mess suggests to me that they are either in shock or denial.

    I don't take kindly to responses which claim greybeard status and implicitly question 'What you complaining about, whippersnapper ... ?'

    If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed?

    I have an earlier iteration of 7.6 on an arm machine - no problems co-existing with the 7.5.5 on Windows ....

    An official release usually implies that it won't totally reduce the end-user's system to chaos. If it does, then a rapid retraction and apology is in order together with clear instructions on how to recover from the ruins of chaos!

    Just my 2 (euro)cents worh.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by castalla
    I think some clarificaton of any 'relationships' would be useful for many users.
    The "relationship" is explained in the the General Discussion post #1 sticky. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80919


    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed?
    There was no opportunity given. In the past a release candidate was proposed and time was given to highlight possible issues. AFAICT 7.6 was released without a release candidate or any warning that release was due.
    Last edited by bpa; 2011-07-28 at 16:55.

  5. #5
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    Thanks.

    Explains some of the issues ....

    Personally I have the impression that 7.6 was the retiring CEO's farewell gift to Logitech!

  6. #6
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    Personally I have the impression that 7.6 was the retiring CEO's farewell gift to Logitech!
    I think it's much more likely that the departing CEO doesn't know what a Squeezebox is. Or at least what it does.

  7. #7
    Senior Member JJZolx's Avatar
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    These forums were the original Slim Devices forums and were taken over by Logitech when they purchased Slim Devices in 2006. They've been kept going mostly by members of the Squeezebox development team since then. As the Squeezebox development team has dwindled so has Logitech's participation in the forums.

  8. #8
    Senior Member erland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    The total lack of any responses to posts on the Logitech Forum to the 7.6 mess suggests to me that they are either in shock or denial.
    Logitech is a big company who doesn't prioritize talking to customers in public. Not much different than other big companies. Apple silently denied the iPhone antenna problem for months, and similar scenarios can probably also be seen on a lot of other big companies.

    Logitech not answering in the official support forum or this community forum doesn't mean they don't help users, there are varied experience with contacting their support, some good some really bad, but every one that registers a support case will get some kind of answer on his/her issue and can be sure someone is working on investigating it. So if you want support, you need to register a support case.

    Logitech is traditionally a hardware company, their developers, especially those involved in Squeezebox, understand software development but there are IMHO strong indications that their management doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    I don't take kindly to responses which claim greybeard status and implicitly question 'What you complaining about, whippersnapper ... ?'
    Just be aware of that you probably have never seen such response from any Logitech employee. When reading the official support forum it's important to realize that there are also normal users like you and me over there trying to answer questions and some of us sometimes gets frustrated and give bad responses because we aren't trained support personnel. We are just tired of all complaints and tired of Logitech not doing proper testing of their products.

    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed?
    1.
    The release was a surprise to us so we really didn't get the chance, I think no one expected them to suddenly release 7.6 it felt like the release was at least a month away, probably more.

    2.
    We did indicate it didn't work, I think there were only one beta tester that argue that something should be released soon and as I've understood that person hadn't even tried 7.6 so IMHO he didn't really know what he was talking about in this case.

    3.
    I personally suspect that not even the Logitech developers sometimes available on this forum was involved in the release decision. I'm 99% sure none of them would recommend their management to release the product at the state they knew it was before the release. It's important to realize that Logitech is a big corporation and sometimes the communication between different parts doesn't really seem to work particularly good.

    Quote Originally Posted by castalla View Post
    An official release usually implies that it won't totally reduce the end-user's system to chaos. If it does, then a rapid retraction and apology is in order together with clear instructions on how to recover from the ruins of chaos!
    I think more or less every community member and every Logitech developer available on this forum agree with you, almost none of the beta testers would have recommended Logitech to release 7.6.

    However, Logitech's strategy to keep mysqueezebox.com in sync with SBS makes it really hard to revert a release when it has been done, because it will be chaos also if they revert 7.6 because:
    - If they keep mysqueezebox.com at 7.6, users rolling back 7.5 are going to be asked to upgrade their firmware when they switch to mysqueezebox.com.
    - If they rollback mysqueezebox.com to 7.5, users which have upgraded to 7.6 and is happy with it, is going to be asked to downgrade their firmware to 7.5 as soon as they switch to mysqueezebox.com.

    So based on this I think:
    - The only way for Logitech to solve this mess is to release a 7.6.1 version that works as soon as possible.
    - We will never see any public apologies, Logitech doesn't communicate with end users that way, never have, never will.
    - The management within Logitech might not even know it's a problem, because as previously said, the communication between different parts really doesn't work. I believe it's a lot bigger chance the management get to know there is a problem if everyone picks up the phone and call their official support so it's completely overloaded with angry customers.
    - Complaining on this community forum is completely pointless, there is no one from Logitech reading and forwarding these complains to the management within Logitech. Some of the Logitech developers will see the complains, because they do sometimes read this forum, but the only thing the complaints are going to accomplish is making the developers more frustrated, less happy with their management and all this will just make it even harder for them to focus at fixing all the bugs so we can get a 7.6.1 release. Complain to the official Logitech support or the official support forum is a completely different matter, that will raise the chance of someone within the management to understand there is a problem, so this is something more users should do.

    Finally, the only connection between this community forum and Logitech is:
    - Logitech pays for the hosting and administration of the community forum.
    - Some of the Logitech developers (not support staff) are using the community to help them get feedback and help finding bugs when developing a new software release.

    Back in 2006, when Slim Devices owned the Squeezebox products, the connection with the community was a lot stronger, then community members were officially often even involved in hardware beta testing and the Slim Devices management often both read and posted in this forum. All that changed when Logitech bought Slim Devices.

    I personally doubt anyone within Logitech management look at this community forum as a beta testing group, but that's just my very personal suspicion. The management definitely NEVER post here and ask if the community think something is ready to be released.
    Last edited by erland; 2011-07-28 at 20:49.
    Erland Isaksson (My homepage)
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    (Also developer of many plugins/applets)

  9. #9
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    Cool that turns out not to be the case

    Quote Originally Posted by erland View Post
    Logitech is a big company who doesn't prioritize talking to customers in public. Not much different than other big companies. Apple silently denied the iPhone antenna problem for months, and similar scenarios can probably also be seen on a lot of other big companies.
    erland, with all due respect, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with respect to the iPhone's so-called "antenna problem". There were pretty conclusive demonstrations by Apple and third parties that just about any phone can be held in such a way to block parts of the antenna. It was really pretty overblown.

    With regards to 7.6, I have no idea if it will turn out to be a disaster or not for the Squeezebox line, but if it hurts Squeezebox sales the way the so-called iPhone antenna problem has impacted iPhone 4 sales, then Logitech will be laughing all the way to the bank.

  10. #10
    Senior Member erland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmr View Post
    erland, with all due respect, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with respect to the iPhone's so-called "antenna problem". There were pretty conclusive demonstrations by Apple and third parties that just about any phone can be held in such a way to block parts of the antenna. It was really pretty overblown.
    I agree, it might have been a bad example, I was just trying to say that big companies usually don't talk to the public before they have a solution to the problem, many of them don't talk about problems in public at all, because it's bad for the business to admit you've done something wrong, especially when you can't offer a solution that will fix the issues.

    Apple more or less silently denied the problem until they knew what was causing it, had a comparison with other phones and had a solution to it by offering free cases to everyone who was affected by the problem. However, I do believe they handled it nicely in the end, because to me it just showed me that they really care about the experience their customers get. In comparison, Logitech continues to show more or less visible that they don't care about my music experience. The only people within Logitech that sometimes do show that they care are the Logitech developers available on this community forum.
    Erland Isaksson (My homepage)
    Lead platform developer of ickStream Music Platform - A world of music at your fingertips

    (Also developer of many plugins/applets)

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