soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
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I just digged out a new mod. Folks. You wouldn't believe it.
Sometimes it really surprises me what's being left on the
street by those SW designers.
However. It really shows how well the HW is done.
@Flextreme and all others running 2.0:
If you guys think that was it, you'd be finished with 2.0.
Buckle up.Comment
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Just spent a couple of hours listening to the touch with these mods. Staggered how good my hifi now sounds! Detail, seperation, dynamics, PRAT etc have all got a turbo boost. Listening through a Lavry dac and naim amps so revealing kit too.
Maybe something wasn't quite right before and this has corrected it - I don't know but either way Soundcheck - I can only doff my cap. You sir, are a genius!!!
Nb - Why not approach logitech to turn it into an Official plugin ?Comment
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Of course it takes multiple power supplies on the DAC part as well as careful ground control so each part of the system only has ONE ground connection to the others. If done properly this guarantees that no noise from the digital section can get into the analog section, either directly or as jitter.
Its not simple or dirt cheap, but its well defined engineering not voodoo science. Because of the multiple power supplies and separate shielded sub-enclosures you can't so this in a tiny box, it takes a good sized box. That also means its not dirt cheap either. It doesn't have to be horrendously expensive either, it should be possible to do a VERY good implementation for $2-3K. There is nothing in this approach which REQUIRES extremely expensive components (for example in the one I've built the most expensive part is $30 , the DAC chips themselves). There ARE a lot of parts but none are particularly expensive.
Done right all these software tweaks really are unnecessary to achieve the best sound. That still doesn't make TinySBS work super fast, but its not degrading the sound as long as you can get it to work at all.
John S.Comment
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Though if products sell well, you got it done right!
It's always a matter of perspective.
Soundwise, 99,9 % of those products out there are affected.
All manufacturers have to live with certain compromises.
Though I think we should put this discussion into the right perspective. We're talking highest-end stuff here.
At 250$+PS+SW mods, you'll able to achieve audiophile levels with the Touch.
And there is still some space left. I could live with my setup for a long long time.
CheersComment
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First of all those modifications and its impact need to be accepted as such.
Then I'm wondering if they like what they read over here respectively find at my blog.
1. There's not much left of that original product by the time you're done with the mods. It'll be a "Duet II" kind of device. No frills, just sound!
2. And then there is the Transporter. (Although Mercedes is not making the money with the S-class.)
3. And I pretty much propose things the other way around as they're doing it. Flac decoding on the server etc.. But that's not that critical.
Still I think if words spreads around about that IMO (and meanwhile quite some peoples opinions) added audiophile potential they gonna sell even more Touches.
If they want to talk about integrating my solution -- I'll be here.Last edited by soundcheck; 2011-01-15, 09:04.Comment
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Klaus, I got a couple of questions.
1. Does the SB3 allow same kind of soft-modifications? Just curious...
2. I did not invest in the PSU yet. I respect Phil's and SeanAdams critical opinion about this topic in regards to the SB Touch, the PSU of the Touch is much already much better than SB3. I realize that this topic has been completely discussed to death, and it is not difficult to predict what their perspective is, especially when it comes to the impact on the digital out.
I am interested what your experience is. You recommend the PSU upgrade (specifically the Sbooster filter component) on your blog, and I can imagine how it could improve the analog output (the PSU is a key component in NAIM's vision on sound quality, and I experienced it my-self with the Hi-CAP upgrade). But what can I expect when I'm only using the digital out? Is the difference just as noticeable as your soft-mod? -EDIT- >> I purchased the Sbooster filter (standalone, without the linear PSU) to satisfy my curiosity: I noticed no specific improvement.
3. Lastly, when the mod is activated I see there are multiple components to it. I understand the potential impact of disabling featutes/input/outputs. But what do the other mods do?
Too many questions...Last edited by Flextreme; 2011-01-15, 21:51.Comment
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Just finished a blind A/B comparison (through some scripting), randomizing the enabling or disabling of SoundCheck's mod.
Out of 16, I got 10 times right. To be honest, my subjectively perceived difference is (much) bigger than objective one (doing blind A/B's).
I clearly prefer the modded Touch "emotionally", and still do. The blind comparisons learned me however that the difference is very subtle, and not that simple to identify (in my set-up, I cannot speak for others). Doing blind A/B's is actually not a very relaxing activity. The subjective difference in sound quality is far greater, which is OK for me. But if you expect/hope for whatever reason a better sound quality (expensive cables is a very good example in my mind), it is truly difficult to be objective. Seems like this is just my own little reality check. :-)Comment
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Guido F.Music Room:
Marantz TT 15S1, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge>ART ADC>Vinyl Studio
CISCO Router>DLink Bridge>Vortexbox Appliance/Squeezelite>SOtM Card>REGEN>Benchmark DAC2 D>Little Dot Mk 9 Preamp>DSPeaker Antimode Dual Core DRC/EQ/Preamp+CIA PS>Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp> Martin Logan SL3 speakers
REL T1 Sub
Bedroom:
Squeezebox Touch (analog out)>Little Dot Mk III amp>AKG K701 headphones
Sony D100 amp>PSB alpha B1 speakers
Treadmill:
FiiO X3 Digital Music Player>AKG K550 headphonesComment
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I have a SB Touch (org. PSU) > Coax > Supernait (Hicapped) > NACA5 > Harbeth SuperHL5
Just to explain: with 'subjectively' I meant that I know when the modded touch is playing in the comparisons. With objectively I meant that I do not know what I am hearing. This is probably not the right choice of wording.
I listened for first 1-3 minutes to either Philip Glass, Primacy of a number from Naqoikatsi and Agnes obel, Just so.
In the comparisons, I run the Touch (both modded and default) connected to ethernet and with flac decoded on the server to PCM. The mods include all software mods on the device. Buffer is set to 4400us. All inputs/outputs are disabled except the digital-out of course. Both switching to ethernet and server flac decoding do not change the SQ in my system in my perception, but I stick with it because it does not hurt SQ either. Server side FLAC decoding once did make a clear difference on the SB3, but that was only with one specific release of slimserver/firmware. I stuck with it anyhow, as my own best practice.
Because of the 20 second boot-time after randomizing the "tt-e" or "tt-d", and the subtle difference, it is quite difficult to identify if the Touch is played modded. (I put a cloth over the touch, so I could not see if the mod was effective, and initiated a simple randomized AutoIT script running on my PC from my iPad through an RDP session).
However, I also compared the a SB3 (connected through wi-fi) and the (either default/modded Touch). Comparisons are easy, when you switch players the difference is immediately apparent. ('subjectively', I now know when I hearing the modded Touch). Especially that the soundstage is 'one notch' larger and detail improvement is striking.
On my Supernait the unmodded Touch is consistently similar to the SB3. This is probably due to the reclocking nature of the Supernait. However, directly A/B-ing the modded Touch to my SB3, the difference is significant in my perception. This is aligned with the wow-effect I had, first time I heard the mod.
Doing a true blind, A/B test with 2 Touch players (one modded and the other not) would very probably make comparisons much easier, because you can switch directly, making the difference much easier to distinguish.
In my professional life, I publish independent performance research white papers of virtualization technologies, which are heavily scrutinized by both the IT community and the major vendors. Mayby this explains why I put so much effort in analyzing the mod. Whatever, I am finished analyzing, and will go back to enjoying music.Comment
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Hi Flextreme,
thanks a lot for the first results which can be trusted and are not bound alone to expectations by the listeners.
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test) 10 out of 16 times right missed the 95% confidence level, so still could be a result just by chance.
Don't want to play down your results though - but this definitely (in your setup and with your ears) shows (as you write), that the mods are far away from the big audible differences most users and the author of the mods claim.
Anyway - if people feel better after doing the mods (be it because their minds plays tricks with them or because there are really audible changes) then I don't want to stop them believing in it .
Now Phil Leighs results are still interesting.
Thanks again for taking the time to do these test and sharing the results!Did you know: SqueezePlayer will stream all your music to your Android device. Take your music everywhere!
Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? Squeezebox + iPad = SqueezePad
Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? => why not try my Weather Forecast Applet
Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? => why not try my Headphone Switcher AppletComment
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I'm working on it.
Doing an a/b listening test is very hard because the 20 second reboot delay exceeds the aural memory window (by about 19 seconds!).
Really you need 2 synced touches side-by-side to do this properly and to get anything like meaningful results.
As for the ADM tests... they are coming along nicely. Analogue output tests are done, I need to do the s/pdif tests.You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.Comment
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Flextreme:
Thanks for providing the details of your comparisons.
My impression (from comparing different speaker orientations, admittedly a very different condition from your A/B trials) is that listening to a variety of musical samples over extended periods of time is essential for subjective differences to be perceived, regardless of the judgment of whether such differences may be improvements or not. When I used short (5 minute) samples of the same music, I could not discern differences unless they were really gross.
My very subjective impression of soundcheck's mods in my system (see below) is that the improvements (with FLAC decoded to PCM on the server, in/outputs defeated, except digital, and screen off, but no WLAN defeated) are not at all subtle when one listens over time to a variety of recordings of various music genres. One of the parameters that is most apparent is in the clarity of vocals, whereas previously obscure words become understandable. A similar effect is noticeable among different instruments in complex musical passages. Another effect is that differences among recordings become more apparent. The overall effect is greater 'musicality,' by which I mean what I hear is closer to hearing a live, rather than a recorded, performance -- though, of course, one is still aware one is listening to a recording, not to the real thing!
Again, these are subjective impressions, and by no means do they suggest that your comparisons or Phil Leighs's attempts at measurements are not valid.
Guido F.Music Room:
Marantz TT 15S1, Virtuoso Wood Cartridge>ART ADC>Vinyl Studio
CISCO Router>DLink Bridge>Vortexbox Appliance/Squeezelite>SOtM Card>REGEN>Benchmark DAC2 D>Little Dot Mk 9 Preamp>DSPeaker Antimode Dual Core DRC/EQ/Preamp+CIA PS>Music Reference RM-200 Mk II amp> Martin Logan SL3 speakers
REL T1 Sub
Bedroom:
Squeezebox Touch (analog out)>Little Dot Mk III amp>AKG K701 headphones
Sony D100 amp>PSB alpha B1 speakers
Treadmill:
FiiO X3 Digital Music Player>AKG K550 headphonesComment
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The first thing I noticed when I tried soundcheck's mods was that the music was louder. Presumably there's no big secret here, because I had previously been using replaygain adjustment (SmartGain) and had the Touch's volume setting around 92% (I use the analog outs). As per soundcheck's instructions (item 1 in section 1.1.2) I turned the Touch's volume to 100% and turned off replaygain. Of course, turning the gain down on my amp was all that was needed to get to previous volume levels.
My question: why should replaygain on/off make a difference in audio quality, besides the obvious effects of perceived loudness? Isn't the gain adjustment taking place on the server?
I'm still evaluating the change in sound quality from the mods. My first reaction is that I may be hearing some more detail, but I need to do more listening with and without the mods. In any event, it finally motivated me to finish running some cat5e to my living room!Main system: SB3 > Emotiva XDA-1 > NAD C 325BEE > Vandersteen 1
Living room: SB2 > Audioengine HD6
Kitchen/dining: SB2 > AudioSource AMP 100 > 2-pairs of Polk Audio RC60i in-ceiling speakers
Deck/patio: SB Receiver > AudioSource AMP 100 > Polk Atrium 45
Study: Squeezelite-X on Win10 laptop with cheapo Logitech speakers
Bedroom: SB Radio
Quiet time: Hifiman Sundara headphones plugged into NAD amp or iPhone + AudioQuest Dragonfly Red DAC/amp
LMS 8.5 running on a Raspberry Pi3 (piCore), controlled using iPeng and SB ControllersComment
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