I've already expressed my thoughts earlier and and they have been repeated by bluegaspode earlier in this thread.
I should probably stop trying to help people by telling them through which channels they have a better chance to get help. I hadn't realized that they wanted to continue be unhappy and preferred to scream/rant where no one hears them instead of doing it where at least some Logitech representatives hear them.
Anyone that doesn't want my help can just ask me to put them on my ignore list, I'll be happy to add more people to it. If you don't want to ask me you can always just put me on your ignore list in your forum profile settings.
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Thread: Back off
2010-06-20, 13:24 #21Erland Isaksson (My homepage)
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2010-06-20, 13:37 #22
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Lake Oswego, OR
Over time, the volume of rants has increased here. And many of those complaints are valid, but not expressed in a constructive manner. Personally, I tend to skip over those messages (and future messages by the same author) quite quickly. I suspect others do the same.
So, if an angry rant makes you feel better, go for it. Just do it with the knowledge that a calmly worded description of your problem is more likely to elicit helpful responses.
2010-06-20, 13:50 #23
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
The problem is not the constructiveness (or lack thereof) of posts which deal with problems of the Radio, but the fact that the same few "seniors" hijack every such thread and destroy it by uttering the same non-helpful stuff. And every time they are told how pointless it is to put the blame on the customers or tell someone who wants to use MYSB to use a server instead, they claim that this was not a valid wish and you should go somewhere else if you don't think that their futile "help" was no helpful at all.
Now how constructive is this?
2010-06-20, 15:53 #24
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
As a person not new to support forums but new to this forum I know I'm going to regret this. Anyhow, some unsolicted observations:
1. Both sides of the issue are at opposite ends of the same stick. If both sides would let it drop, the stick will probably go away on it's own.
2. Having participated in support forums for some pretty lousy products, there's a misnomer that a person who's unhappy with a product can "get revenge" and cost product sales by making their feelings known to potential new customers in their support forums. The effect is minimal, probably a drop in the bucket. 99.9% of buyers will never check support forums before they buy. The only cost really is your own emotional state & blood pressure. I read all the negativity about the firmware in these forums for weeks and bought the radio anyhow (& glad I did).
3. I'm not suggesting that anyone curb their freedom of expression, but let's be sensible. The entire discussion, regardless of what side you're on, is off topic. Take it to the "General Discussions" forum or private mail so that those of us who are here for useful on-topic support tips don't have to wade through the muck to get to them.
4. This is the reason that many unmoderated forums become moderated and almost useless. Let's all temper our views and do our part to keep this from happening.
2010-06-20, 19:10 #25
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
2010-06-20, 19:13 #26
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
I'm still waiting for the #1 offender to post in this thread.
2010-06-21, 04:25 #27
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Are you all so proud that you can't simply not tell people to stop posting without ending your helpful posts as well? That's kind of sad really, and I guess it shows the true nature of your "help": it comes with the condition that you be allowed to mistreat new users.
2010-06-21, 05:29 #28
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- West Sussex, UK
As someone who has benefitted from the advice from this forum, and a relatively new user, can I add my tuppenceworth?
I can see both sides of this debate - there does seem to be a lot of negative hyperbole about products. However, I do believe that it is useful for some of this infomration to be out there. I am currently debating (internally) whether or not to by a radio as an alarm - the "debate" on these forums has helped me realise that this may not be unproblematic, but that my use of SBS on an NAS may negate the issues ... that is probably enought to enhance my buying decision. And I can now safely ignore the rest of the debate (although I am waiting for the "It's Fixed!" thread that is far less likely to be posted by disgruntled users when they are finally listend too).
On the other hand, more positive posting about what does work should be encouraged ...
As other users have said, some of the "complainers" do not take advice, and that is their perogative. As a product matures, users become consumers who expect stuff to work out of the box. Those of us who like fiddling should be able to co-exist with those who expect things to work, and have never fiddled with a server. The two approaches may never see eye to eye, and perhaps, once a "complainer" has rejected help once, it might be easier for all on the forum if both sides disengaged ...
(But can I say that I value all of the debate on this forum!)
JonMain system: SB Touch, Arcam A85, Mission 733i speakers
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2010-06-21, 06:33 #29
I've kind of expressed my thoughts on another thread but as someone who may be considered a "senior member" here is my 0.02.
Ranting, venting, expressing frustration with Logitech or the Squeezebox line of products is to be expected on this or any other related product forum. I personally dislike it when someone chooses to express that frustration through the medium of swearing (if you wouldn't say it to my face as part of a casual conversation with a stranger, please don't say it to me online) but beyond that, vent away to your heart's content.
What I personally find more of an issue at the moment is:
a) there is a bit of a trend of genuine requests for help being hijacked and turned into an anti-Logitech venting thread. I do get that some people are very frustrated at the current situation and there are plainly issues that need to be resolved, but when people are trying to suggest workarounds or possible solutions for an immediate problem, it doesn't help either the original poster asking for help or the person who's trying to provide help to post stuff along the lines of "oh you'll be lucky, this POS product doesn't work and Logitech doesn't f'n care". What's more it does make me stop engaging in the thread and the boards - I deal with enough stress and antagonism in my day to day life that I really don't need to seek it out in my free time;
b) calling me a "fan-boy" for Logitech. First, I'm not a boy - the avatar is a solid indication of that! Second I'm as critical as anyone of some of the design decisions that have been made with recent products. But where those decisions are made, I'm trying to work within them at the moment whilst lobbying for changes where I can. That doesn't make me or anyone else a fan boy, it makes me a realist.
c) saying "this product just doesn't work" (Radio or Touch). Actually, the product doesn't work for you right now (generally, not a reference to the OP) and that's a serious issue worthy of significant time and attention by the people who can put it right (Logitech, not this community). I have a Radio and a Touch and both work solidly for me when connected to MySB or a local instance of the server software (I don't run TinySBS) including alarms, internet radio and local playback and I'm happy to spend my time trying to suggest solutions to help people get to the same place.
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting this forum should only be used for positive posts - or that people shouldn't raise their issues with the product line. But we seem to be accepting "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" as a default mode rather than "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
That said, we've been here before - anyone remember the "can we not have inflammatory titles thread"? I guess the difference is that Slim Devices/Logitech used to engage on these forums then. Now they don't, there's perversely much less incentive for people to put across their issues in a reasoned way or at least semi-polite way...
2010-06-21, 09:02 #30
I am of the opinion that constructive requests for help have always been welcome here. ALWAYS.
What is not welcome is the constant bitch*ng, moaning, groaning, and Logitech bashing that goes on when someone has a problem, thinks they have a problem, or is just plain frustrated and is looking for SOMEONE to blame.
Such posting in counterproductive, quite irritating, and quite frankly has made these forums much less friendly and enjoyable than they used to be. (yes I am one of those old senior members pining for the good old days)
If people want to bit*h about and attack Logitech I suggest they wander over to the official Logitech forum and ply their words. I bet they will find a friendly, loving, caring environment.
And to the "back off" request? Not a chance. These forums are still worth fighting for. If the bitche*s and complainers win it will result in running off those who can help the most when there are problems with Squeezebox products. I, for one, don't want to see that happen.