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  1. #11
    MrSinatra
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    i can't say regarding that bug, but my observation has been that embedded is getting all the fixes first, and only a few make it into "full" at the same time... it seems the plan is to merge them all eventually but not until another "major" release post 7.5

    i don't want to further irritate andy/slim devs but as someone who follows the bugs and occassionally tests to see if they are indeed fixed, i find their current tracking system lacking. bugs that are labeled as closed and resolved, etc... are in reality not for the SBS most people use, and won't be until the NEXT major release, and theres no way to reliably tell bug by bug which it should be, nor if indeed the fixes actually made it into the next major release.

  2. #12
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
    i don't want to further irritate andy/slim devs but as someone who follows the bugs and occassionally tests to see if they are indeed fixed, i find their current tracking system lacking. bugs that are labeled as closed and resolved, etc... are in reality not for the SBS most people use, and won't be until the NEXT major release, and theres no way to reliably tell bug by bug which it should be, nor if indeed the fixes actually made it into the next major release.
    I don't profess to understand fully the version control system that Logitech uses, but I think there is some misinformation here. First, the SBS that "most people use" is the release (currently 7.4.1), not the betas. Second, as you yourself have read, andyg says that people running beta should be testing 7.5-embedded, not the un-embedded version. Based on andyg's statement I don't see the point of running un-embedded 7.5 unless you're one of the people for whom 7.5-embedded isn't working.

    Also, in other posts you equate the embedded branch with TinySC and SB Touch. This association is false. embedded not a codeword for TinySC, and it is equally mistaken to call the un-embedded "full". The distinction is mostly an issue of the backend database, not the device that runs SBS.

    I'm curious which examples you've seen of "embedded is getting all the fixes first". I am *not* doubting you, because I know you follow the bug status more closely than I. Could you give some examples? Are they possibly bugs related mostly to SQLite?

    Sorry for veering a bit off-topic.

  3. #13
    MrSinatra
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    I don't profess to understand fully the version control system that Logitech uses, but I think there is some misinformation here. First, the SBS that "most people use" is the release (currently 7.4.1), not the betas.
    i was not talking about any version #, but rather "branch" (if i understand the term correctly).

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    Second, as you yourself have read, andyg says that people running beta should be testing 7.5-embedded, not the un-embedded version.
    u mean what he said today?

    this is all part of the problem. when i go here:

    http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Nightly_Builds

    i don't see anything about embedded anything, branches, etc... or any info or definitions or explanations EXCEPT about what is listed there.

    that stuff on that page is what i am comfortable using. i do not understand the ramifications of embedded vs "normal" or fat or whatever one wants to call it, and so i stick with what i know.

    i'm not going to just start using embedded without context.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    Based on andyg's statement I don't see the point of running un-embedded 7.5 unless you're one of the people for whom 7.5-embedded isn't working.
    perhaps, but i need context. i have it for what i know, as well as exp with what i know.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    Also, in other posts you equate the embedded branch with TinySC and SB Touch.
    no, i asked IF that was true, it was a question, i was looking for that context.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    This association is false. embedded not a codeword for TinySC, and it is equally mistaken to call the un-embedded "full". The distinction is mostly an issue of the backend database, not the device that runs SBS.
    ergo my questions and search, or rather, NEED for context.

    so perhaps you can lay it out for me fully?

    what should we call the link above? the mysql branch? does that mean that "embedded" is only different, as a branch, in being sqlite and having fixes applied first?

    why don't they make the embedded branch available via the wiki link above?

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    I'm curious which examples you've seen of "embedded is getting all the fixes first". I am *not* doubting you, because I know you follow the bug status more closely than I. Could you give some examples? Are they possibly bugs related mostly to SQLite?

    Sorry for veering a bit off-topic.
    i don't know of any offhand, but andy has said both in bugs and in the forums here that such and such a bug is fixed as far as embedded was concerned. i do think most were DB related.

    why use the term "embedded" anyway? is it saying that the DB is what is embedded? i thought it meant tinysc as thats a webui-less version of sbs "embedded" in a hardware device, thus my confusion.

    some context on official logitech pages would help avoid confusion.

  4. #14
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    I'm way too tired right now to respond in full, but a few things may be helpful. "TinySC" (or more appropriately now, TinySBS) is a regular SBS that has web ui disabled via the way it is invoked on the Touch (simple command line options, I believe). TinySBS is not a separate branch.

    As for the wiki, it's not up to date, like most wikis. Frankly, I've never gone for a nightly via the wiki. However, the 7.5.0 embedded branch is quite apparent from what many (though I learn now, not all) consider the usual source for nightlies: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/

    Also, there's quite a bit of context in the thread in which andyg announced the embedded builds, though you've obviously seen that, and admittedly it gets a bit esoteric.

    I don't know why it's called embedded. Like Michael said, it's just a name. Possibly it's called embedded because by using SQLite it is more capable of running (and running well) on smaller embedded systems such as NASs than the main (MySQL-based) branch is. But that's just speculation on my part.

    I can understand you not wanting to venture into beta territory that is even more unknown than usual. But if you choose not to follow the devs' suggestion about which branch you should be testing, you shouldn't be surprised if the branch you're testing is a lower priority, because that effectively is what the devs are telling you. Cheers.

  5. #15
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    Question Links are to the wrong place for nightly builds?

    Well the Wiki may not be up to date. But unfortunately that is where all the web links seem to take you for nightly builds:

    http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/co...resources.html

    Maybe some one should change the links.

    Dave

  6. #16
    MrSinatra
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    I'm way too tired right now to respond in full, but a few things may be helpful. "TinySC" (or more appropriately now, TinySBS) is a regular SBS that has web ui disabled via the way it is invoked on the Touch (simple command line options, I believe). TinySBS is not a separate branch.
    gtk.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    As for the wiki, it's not up to date, like most wikis.
    an explanation perhaps, but not an excuse. its not some far flung page, its right off the main site. follow this:

    http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/

    click support
    click download squeezebox server
    click beta and prerelease versions of sbs (takes you to the wiki page)

    and there you are. linked right from the main site, not hidden or hard to find. someone simply didn't add embedded to the wiki page. its the perfect place to do it and provide some explanation and context.

    i simply followed the trail they put in place. is this a failing on my part?

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    Frankly, I've never gone for a nightly via the wiki.
    ok, but obviously they laid this trail for people to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    However, the 7.5.0 embedded branch is quite apparent from what many (though I learn now, not all) consider the usual source for nightlies: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/
    its not linked to that dir on their main site or wiki page, and while someone might think to edit the url to go directly to ../nightly/ i don't see why anyone should expect someone to KNOW to do that. i didn't and i read the forums quite a bit.

    my point is twofold:

    1. if they want people to know about it, link to it from the main site in some way, like by updating the wiki for instance.
    and
    2. provide some context for just what embedded is beyond forum chatter, and again the wiki is an appropriate place to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    Also, there's quite a bit of context in the thread in which andyg announced the embedded builds, though you've obviously seen that, and admittedly it gets a bit esoteric.
    its also haphazard and i'm just now reading it as opposed to when the term first surfaced.

    and btw, i'm not intending to complain about ANY of this but if you put me into a defensive posture then i will explain myself by pointing out why i thought this and that which may include some criticism of things, but i wouldn't be doing it except you seem to think i should know what you know.

    i'm frequently impressed by what you know btw, but i doubt most people know it, or should be expected to know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by aubuti View Post
    I don't know why it's called embedded. Like Michael said, it's just a name. Possibly it's called embedded because by using SQLite it is more capable of running (and running well) on smaller embedded systems such as NASs than the main (MySQL-based) branch is. But that's just speculation on my part.

    I can understand you not wanting to venture into beta territory that is even more unknown than usual. But if you choose not to follow the devs' suggestion about which branch you should be testing, you shouldn't be surprised if the branch you're testing is a lower priority, because that effectively is what the devs are telling you. Cheers.
    yeah, i agree. but if the devs want help testing, they could throw the dummies like me a bone and update the wiki as an example of a means by which i can help me to help myself, and in turn them. as you note, there will be natural resistence to something even more "beta-ish" then usual.

    (but your sqlite scan results beating mysql tweaks certainly intrigues!)

  7. #17
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWr View Post
    Maybe some one should change the links.
    That's a good idea. Until someone does that (and I wouldn't hold my breath seeing how Logitech manages its website, or at least the SB part), an effective alternative would be to change the wiki, which anyone can do.

  8. #18
    Senior Member aubuti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
    and btw, i'm not intending to complain about ANY of this but if you put me into a defensive posture then i will explain myself by pointing out why i thought this and that which may include some criticism of things, but i wouldn't be doing it except you seem to think i should know what you know.
    I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I was merely trying to stop misinformation from being perpetuated, because as you know, it can then take on a life of its own. You didn't know, and that's fine, but it's also fine for someone else to step in with more accurate information. It's possible to tell someone he is mistaken without it being a personal attack. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

    For example, I didn't know until yesterday that the Logitech website takes those looking for betas to the wiki, and then to the non-embedded branch. I personally always found it easier to remember downloads.slimdevices.com than your point-and-click description, especially because that URL has been stable for years, whereas the point-and-click routine changes every few months. I realize new users won't know that, so the links and/or wiki should be changed.

    I have no opinions about what you "should" know. I did make the assumption that you had read a thread in which you have participated quite a bit. Or at least the original post in that thread, in which Andy provides the correct link and a synopsis of what the embedded branch is. But it's also understandable that the signal may have gotten lost in some of the noise.

  9. #19
    MrSinatra
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    i didn't feel personally attacked, i didn't mean that, i just meant in an academic sense i was defending what i knew. i always appreciate being corrected with better info, and i appreciate what you've said.

    i'd be happy to update that wiki page with the root link, but what i can't do in a truly informed way is provide context.

    and i think one point has been lost here, which is that via bug tracker, there is no way to tell which "fixed" bugs are fixed for both branches, or just "embedded." that was the basis of my original comments in this thread.

  10. #20
    MrSinatra
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    Aubuti,

    here's an example of what you asked for:

    https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7992

    and i think you'll see why i'm confused, some context on official pages would go a long way.

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