Lyngdorf: Digital Analogue / Analogue Digital

[GuyDebord]

First and foremost greetings to all. After a long break Im posting several questions that Im sure will make for an insightful topic of discussion...

In several instances, I have expressed in this forum my love and preference for analogue (vinyl) musical reproduction, however, during my holidays I had the chance to listen to the magic of Lyngdorf's 'room perfect' and now I am tempted to test the digitalization of my analogue system.

Next week I will have Lyngdorf's preamp DPA-1 in my system, I will demo it for about a week and then, of course I will take what might be a radical decision of acquiring it.....

The curiosity has driven me to look for every information I could find in the net about the unit, but for some reason, none of my most important questions were addressed...

I assume this questions can be applied to any digital amp or preamp in the market...

1. About the A/D conversion, are we talking 24bit-96khz, 24-192, or...? does this mean that all my analogue content will be digitalized in high-resolution and if yes, how would this high-res will be played back? which brings me to the following question...

2. About the D/A conversion, what type of converters are we talking about? do they upsample? do they use the same resolution of the original input? how well implemented are the D/A converters....

3. Would you use the Balanced Analogue out from the Transporter? or would you rather use a digital out? and why? and this question of-course refers back to the first one.

3.1 Hypothetically, if I use the digital out of the transporter to play a regular flac, all info will be kept 16bit, but if I use the analogue out, the lyngdorf will upsample the info and make it 24bit high-res, I assume some info will be lost in that process, but I leave it to you guys to help me understand what goes on....

4. Or even more radically, would you use the digital out of the lyngdorf and let the transporter make the D/A conversion?

Before this, for me digital was digital and analogue was analogue, two different worlds, now I am forced to think in a A/D, it was always the other way around, I guess thats why I am a bit confused...

Thanks in advance....

[Phil Leigh]

nothing - NOTHING - is lost in increasing the bit-depth from 16 to 24.

[darrenyeats]

Yes, increasing bit-depth is not re-sampling.

Increasing bit depth is a bit like changing denomination. Let's say you have 100 one-pound coins. Increasing bit-depth is like converting that into 10000 pennies. The value is the same but how you count it is different. In the case of pennies, when you perform a calculation on the value (like divide by three) you get a more precise result. In pounds you would get 33 pounds but in pennies it's 3333 pennies, a much more precise result. That's why bit-depth is increased prior to doing things like digital volume control.

The increase in bit-depth itself does nothing to the data though.
Darren

[Themis]

First and foremost greetings to all. After a long break Im posting several questions that Im sure will make for an insightful topic of discussion...

In several instances, I have expressed in this forum my love and preference for analogue (vinyl) musical reproduction, however, during my holidays I had the chance to listen to the magic of Lyngdorf's 'room perfect' and now I am tempted to test the digitalization of my analogue system.

Next week I will have Lyngdorf's preamp DPA-1 in my system, I will demo it for about a week and then, of course I will take what might be a radical decision of acquiring it.....

The curiosity has driven me to look for every information I could find in the net about the unit, but for some reason, none of my most important questions were addressed...

I assume this questions can be applied to any digital amp or preamp in the market...

1. About the A/D conversion, are we talking 24bit-96khz, 24-192, or...? does this mean that all my analogue content will be digitalized in high-resolution and if yes, how would this high-res will be played back? which brings me to the following question...

2. About the D/A conversion, what type of converters are we talking about? do they upsample? do they use the same resolution of the original input? how well implemented are the D/A converters....

3. Would you use the Balanced Analogue out from the Transporter? or would you rather use a digital out? and why? and this question of-course refers back to the first one.

3.1 Hypothetically, if I use the digital out of the transporter to play a regular flac, all info will be kept 16bit, but if I use the analogue out, the lyngdorf will upsample the info and make it 24bit high-res, I assume some info will be lost in that process, but I leave it to you guys to help me understand what goes on....

4. Or even more radically, would you use the digital out of the lyngdorf and let the transporter make the D/A conversion?

Before this, for me digital was digital and analogue was analogue, two different worlds, now I am forced to think in a A/D, it was always the other way around, I guess thats why I am a bit confused...

Thanks in advance....

imho:
1. Usually 24/192. Don't know about this model but it's usually the case.
2. The same converter types (as for point #1) are used for A/D conversion.
3. There's usually less distortion if an digital out is used. Nevertheless, it's possible that you *might* prefer the distortion that the A/D conversion adds to the sound.
3.1 As far as I know, it's not a problem of "information loss", rather a problem of "added distortion". Try to minimize the number of conversions, that's my advice.
4. Difficult to say, it's really a matter of taste. I would say that the final clock should be the one nearer to the speakers' output (the Lyngdorf one, thus).

[Phil Leigh]

Yes, increasing bit-depth is not re-sampling.

Increasing bit depth is a bit like changing denomination. Let's say you have 100 one-pound coins. Increasing bit-depth is like converting that into 10000 pennies. The value is the same but how you count it is different. In the case of pennies, when you perform a calculation on the value (like divide by three) you get a more precise result. In pounds you would get 33 pounds but in pennies it's 3333 pennies, a much more precise result. That's why bit-depth is increased prior to doing things like digital volume control.

The increase in bit-depth itself does nothing to the data though.
Darren

Nicely put Darren. Much better than I could have done. I must remember your analogy.

[Teus de Jong]

I had a Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 with RoomPerfect as demo here. When used as amplifier, I did not like the sound: I found it in some way 'artificial' (as if a Steinway had changed into a Kawai).

The nice thing was that I could experiment with it. When using the TDAI 2000 as preamplifier with RoomPerfect), I liked it a lot. In effect, you have the RPA 1 then.

There was a difference between using the analogue input or the digital input. Because I already had decided not to buy the TDAI 2200, I payed not enough attention to this. But if you use the digital output of the transporter, you bypass the transporter's DAC, using only the DAC in the Lyngdorf. If you use the analog out of the transporter, the path becomes: transporter DAC -> Lyngdorf ADC -> Lyngdorf DAC. That seems a lot of processing to me. Anyone of the techies here that have any comment on that?

How would you use the DPA 1 Guy? Without using RoomPerfect, I was not particularly impressed. And if you only use the DPA 1 for room correction, would it not be nicer to use the digital loop feature of the transporter with some other high quality room correction device?

Teus

[GuyDebord]

How would you use the DPA 1 Guy? Without using RoomPerfect, I was not particularly impressed. And if you only use the DPA 1 for room correction, would it not be nicer to use the digital loop feature of the transporter with some other high quality room correction device?

Since I listen to vinyl a lot, I need to have the A/D switching capabilities, so I cannot only rely on room correction for my transporter...

What Im very curious about is the the sound of the A/D conversion of my analogue components, although after listening to the benefits of the "room perfect" software, im not sure if tiny differences would matter.

I must say that I have tried the behringer dsp before (only for digital) and didnt like it at all, in this case, I got the impression that lyngdorf's offering is way better... I let you all know how the demoing goes...

[teros]

1. About the A/D conversion, are we talking 24bit-96khz, 24-192, or...? does this mean that all my analogue content will be digitalized in high-resolution and if yes, how would this high-res will be played back? which brings me to the following question...

2. About the D/A conversion, what type of converters are we talking about? do they upsample? do they use the same resolution of the original input? how well implemented are the D/A converters....

3. Would you use the Balanced Analogue out from the Transporter? or would you rather use a digital out? and why? and this question of-course refers back to the first one.

3.1 Hypothetically, if I use the digital out of the transporter to play a regular flac, all info will be kept 16bit, but if I use the analogue out, the lyngdorf will upsample the info and make it 24bit high-res, I assume some info will be lost in that process, but I leave it to you guys to help me understand what goes on....

4. Or even more radically, would you use the digital out of the lyngdorf and let the transporter make the D/A conversion?

I have owned or tested the Lyngdorf TDAI-2200, DPA-1, and RP-1 -- and I have done so with a Transporter (TP) as source.

1. I seem to recall that the Lyng gear uses 24/96 throughout (incl the ADC's). If this is important to you, check it out.

2. Their DAC technology is OK, but not as good as $1K-$2K standalone DAC's available today (e.g., Lavry, Oritek, Bryston, etc.).

3. I rec you use one of the digital outputs of the TP. AES/BU if possible, but the others are OK for this application as well. Going through the TP DAC, then ADC, then Lyng processing and DAC is a sonic disaster IMO.

4. Hmmm. I hadn't tried that. I think another poster mentioned using the processor loop of the TP, a similar approach. The main drawback of either approach is the insertion of another transmitter/cable/receiver chain in the signal path. Not perfect, but not a disaster either. As in most things audio, try and listen!

[WSLam]

4. Hmmm. I hadn't tried that. I think another poster mentioned using the processor loop of the TP, a similar approach. The main drawback of either approach is the insertion of another transmitter/cable/receiver chain in the signal path. Not perfect, but not a disaster either. As in most things audio, try and listen!

So this loop CAN be done already?

[Teus de Jong]

Yes, since firmware 42 without problems (we're now at firmware 73).

Teus