Jive license, what is allowed and what isn't ?

[Fred]

Am I missing anything?

I don't think you are. Basically the license as well as Sean comment above indicates the license allows you to do everything Logitech does not want to do. And they do not know today what they will want to do tomorrow...

Fred

[pippin]

I don't think you are. Basically the license as well as Sean comment above indicates the license allows you to do everything Logitech does not want to do. And they do not know today what they will want to do tomorrow...

Fred

It allows you to do everything, but you are not allowed to distribute it if you need to change a single line of Logitech code. That includes compiling on another platform. Compiling is fine, distributing a compiled package not.

[mikem]

What about running Jive on Nokia N800/N810 devices?

I've been thinking about this too. But no longer after reading the license file.

IMHO the license terms makes access to the source code next to useless and at worst could result in trouble
if you ever release something related.

Well it's their code and their license. If they want others to stay clear of it so shall i.

[pichonCalavera]

I've just read the License and I have one main doubt.

What does it mean when it refers to a "third party"?, is it refering to other hardware that is not the Squeezebox Controller? , or to any organization/person who is not Logitech or myself?

After reading the Licence, I think one is allowed to make any modifications and add new code, but it seems it will only be allowed to be used inside the boundaries of the Jive/SqueezeOS Platform, that is... once we add new code to the Jive/SqueezeOS Platform, it will be "trapped/contained" inside the Jive/SqueezeOS Platform, so in order to move that new code around, you have to move the whole Jive/SqueezeOS Platform, but then again, you cannot transfer the "Original Code" to any third party (hence my doubt about the term "third party".

Of course this is what I understood with my first reading of the License, and since every License is open to a lot of interpretation depending on the person who reads it, I think it would be good if someone could explain the License in a way that developers who want to contribute to the Jive/SqueezeOS Platform can understand it from their perspective.

In my opinion is great that you can modify and see the source code of the Jive/SqueezeOS Platform, and I don't mind that the code can just be "distributed" for the Squeezebox Controller (not many companies allow you to tinker with their devices in a legal way), altough the potential and the "technically posible way" are there for compiling/using it on other devices (for example the iPhone, Nokia 8100, Openmoko Freerunner cellphone).

[peterw]

I raised a number of concerns about the license last May:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...t=34940&page=2

Sean wrote, "I expect that we will modify it in the near term as we gain a better understanding of how third parties will want to use Jive".

So... it's been seven months... anything new to report?

I do remain quite concerned that the platform is becoming more closed. Both the license and, as far as I understand it, the design of the Jive software itself make Jive platforms much less amenable to customization. And I'm terribly concerned that the comments about discontinuing work on Softsqueeze hint at a future of fatter Jive clients that we neither can, nor are willfully allowed to, tweak.

Thanks,

Peter

[mikem]

What does it mean when it refers to a "third party"?, ... or to any organization/person who is not Logitech or myself?

I'm sure the latter. Anybody that is not You and Logitech would be a third party.

Sean wrote, "I expect that we will modify it in the near term as we gain a better understanding of how third parties will want to use Jive".
Peter

I would think this _only_ refers to plugins.
I don't understand this to mean there is any plan to open the platform. Rather the opposite.

I do remain quite concerned that the platform is becoming more closed.

It certainly looks so (which is unfortunate).
Well it's their code and their license. It's best to stay clear of it.

[pichonCalavera]

I do remain quite concerned that the platform is becoming more closed.

Yeah, that will be a big obstacle in innovation from the open-source/plugin community. And I think this is needed in order to fulfill the whole potential of the Jive/SqueezeOS/SBC Platform.

[erland]

If you look at this from Logitech point of view the license is really not that strange. To me there are two obvious reasons why Logitech developed Jive:
1. They like to earn money by selling new remote hardware
2. They like to earn money by selling new playback hardware (SqueezeBox/Transporter)

When Jive starts to support audio playback these two points can also be merged into a single point (since Jive then can act as a playback device)
- They like to earn money by selling new hardware

There is no interest what so ever for Logitech to make the Jive source code available for anyone else if it doesn't result in that they sell more hardware. Logitech doesn't earn any money on the Jive software, the money is earned on the indirect sells of hardware which Jive software results in.

The exact same statements can also be made regarding the SqueezeCenter software. However, there is a huge difference between SqueezeCenter and Jive. Jive could pretty easy be compiled and usable on other devices, the result is that you could use third party hardware instead of the hardware provided by Logitech. In the SqueezeCenter case this is a lot harder, SqueezeCenter itself doesn't playback any sound, Logitech currently doesn't provide any own hardware for running SqueezeCenter. So a completely open source SqueezeCenter doesn't cause any risk of decreasing hardware sells, but a completely open source Jive probably would.

IMO it's not that strange that Logitech themselves like to take the decision regarding which devices that should be able to run Jive. This also makes it possible for them to also earn money on third party hardware by licensing Jive to a third party. Dean has already said earlier in this thread that this is something that they might consider regarding the iPhone.

I think we should still be happy that Jive has public source. This makes it possible for us in the community to affect and improve Jive in a completely other level than it would if Jive was closed source. It also makes it possible to run third party applets on the Jive remote. Even though the license currently even might indicate that those third party applets will be Logitech property, Dean has earlier said that this is not the intent with the license.

I think it would be good if the license was modified to clarify that I'm allowed to write a third party Jive applet and provide it for usage with Jive and still at the same time also is allowed to provide parts of that code to a third party platform without Logitech permission. As I see it the current license doesn't allow this and that is the part that I'm really worried about as a third party developer. If I remember correctly this was also one of the issues someone brought up a few months ago in the earlier discussion.

[mikem]

I think we should still be happy that Jive has public source.

Why?

The currently license only allows for debugging problems and donating code/ideas to Logitech. I don't see a reason to get exited about this.

I think it would be good if the license was modified to clarify that I'm allowed to write a third party Jive applet and provide it for usage with Jive and still at the same time also is allowed to provide parts of that code to a third party platform without Logitech permission.

Beyond plugins, i would also appreciate a statement from Logitech if / to what extent opening up the JIVE platform is planned (or not).

[erland]

The currently license only allows for debugging problems and donating code/ideas to Logitech. I don't see a reason to get exited about this.

Well for my point of view it is still a huge advantage to be able to help debugging and be able to donate ideas to make my music system better. For devices from other vendors I have to rely on that they listen to my complains and spend resources to solve the problem, with the Logitech public source solution I'm able to help solving the problem myself if Logitech doesn't decide to give it priority.

In my view this is still an improvement compared to have a total closed source.

Of course, I would prefer that Jive was totally open source like SqueezeCenter is, but you also have to understand that this has to make sense for Logitech from a business point of view. After all they are primary into this to earn money, not primary to make us happy.