iPhone / iPod touch skin for SlimServer

[pippin]

As always, great work.
1.
"Browse Database" is a bit of a technical term, I think I would prefer something like "Music Library" or "Browse Library" instead.

Yep. Maybe you're right.

2.
I still don't like the division in "Browse Database" and "Browse More". I think I would prefer to have a "Music Library" and "Search" entry in the home page instead. The "Search" entry would contain search functions and the "Music Library" would contain the rest of the items that is currently shown in "Browse Database" and "Browse More".
However, to make this usable I think you need to get rid of the "two finger panning" in the new "Music Library" menu. I don't think this is a big deal, because the most used items like "Albums", "Artists", "Playlists" are already available directly on the home page in the buttom toolbar. So if I wanted to reach one of those I would probably have used the bottom toolbar and not the "Music Library" entry.
So to sum it up I would prefer a structure like this:

Music Library
    Albums
    Artists
    Favorites
    Genres
    Music Folder
    New Music
    Playlists
    Random Mix
    Search
    Years
Search
Internet Radio
    (Same items as today)
Music Services
    (same items as today)
Extras
    (same items as today)

I really thought about that, however: this still leaves 6 lines in the "Music Library" section and if you add another view (e.g. "Custom Browse" or a UPnP server) you are back at panning...
I also insist on having the "Sort By" somewhere in the menu structure ;-) I feel this is typically something you set every now and then so I don't want it to use up space in the browse list.
If you think it is more important in Custom Browse due to more options, just throw it into the "contentcontainer" or place it before that.
Also: Search would be double in your structure and only contain one or two Items in the "Search" Menu.
So my intention was to have all Library views in one submenu and all other views in the other (which will pan if it gets too long). This is also a reason why I "hardcoded" Custom Browse into the first one (BTW it shouldn't show up again in the second menu and doesn't do so for my installation).
But I'll implement that suggestion of yours, too and give both a try.

3.
In the "Internet Radio" section I think I would prefer to have the "Radio URL/Tune In" stuff at the bottom. This would make it possible to use all default internet radio services without the need for two finger panning. I imagine that most people using custom radio urls probably are going to setup these as favorites and use them from the "Browse More/Favorites" menu instead.

Interesting point. Was just the other way round for me since I favorite'd all my internet radio stations and mainly use this to sometimes add a new one via the URL...
My biggest fear is that this goes unnoticed if I place it at the bottom of the page.

6.
I would prefer if you could read the link information to the bottom toolbar icons from the additionalLinks.browse hash instead of hardcoding them in the html pages. The reason is that Custom Browse also contains and "Albums" and "Artists" menu and I plan to make it possible to configure Custom Browse so it replaces the default pages. The same is also valid for the "Playlists" menu which I plan to make possible to replace with the "Dynamic Playlist" implementation.

Yes. Will do that. Just tell me when you need it.

7.
I had a hard time to find the "Clear current playlist" function, maybe there should be a button somewhere on the now playing screen to clear the playlist ?
Or is there already some other way to do this beside in the "Browse More/Playlists" menu ?

Just play a song ;-) (seriously, that's what I usually do, even though then you have to go back...)
But, yes, I do feel so, too. And I also feel the "save playlist" function should be there. And I've got requests to add "Home" and "Switch current player".
Yet the NowPlaying screen is completely crowded...
My intention is to have the "Back" button configurable and to somehow implement an overlay for the "Playlist" view on the "NowPlaying" screen, but even for that I have to place at least one control....
BTW. You have a shortcut to the "Playlist" Menu on the Bottom Bar and since you don't really NEED "Clear Playlist" on the NowPlaying screen (you need to get out of that to add something, anyway) it should be only one click away. And you can return through the Browser's "Back" button.

Once again, really great work, I'm already looking forward to the next version.

I plan to release an updated version of Custom Browse and maybe some of my other plugins during the next week or two. Let me know if you like a beta version for testing before that.

Really Appreciate your comments and I'm clearly awaiting your CustomBrowse implementation (and other plugins as well, of course), so: yes, I'd like to see the beta, too.

[erland]

I really thought about that, however: this still leaves 6 lines in the "Music Library" section and if you add another view (e.g. "Custom Browse" or a UPnP server) you are back at panning...

I would like the "Music Library" section to be a standard scrolling view where I don't see the bottom toolbar without scrolling. The reason is that I know that it will currently require panning because in the simple case Custom Browse is just one item, but in the more advanced case the user will configure Custom Browse to show the items directly under "Music Library" instead of under "Music Library/Custom Browse". In addition to this the TrackStat and Dynamic Playlist plugins will also eventually add one item each in the "Music Library" section.

I guess my point is that two finger panning is bad, so it feels a lot better to have a full one finger scrolling view in this case where you don't see the bottom toolbar without scrolling.

I also insist on having the "Sort By" somewhere in the menu structure ;-) I feel this is typically something you set every now and then so I don't want it to use up space in the browse list.
If you think it is more important in Custom Browse due to more options, just throw it into the "contentcontainer" or place it before that.

I have to implement my own "Sort By" for Custom Browse anyway since it uses totally different sorting options and links behind them. So Custom Browse is not a problem regarding the "Sort By". My concern is just that you probably don't realize that you want to sort before you actually view the list of albums. It might be suitable to have a "default album sorting" parameter under the Player Settings menu if possible. I think it just needs to set a cookie or something if I remember correctly.

Also: Search would be double in your structure and only contain one or two Items in the "Search" Menu.

My misstake, I added the Search under Music Library by mistake, it should only have been shown directly in the home menu.

So my intention was to have all Library views in one submenu and all other views in the other (which will pan if it gets too long). This is also a reason why I "hardcoded" Custom Browse into the first one (BTW it shouldn't show up again in the second menu and doesn't do so for my installation).
But I'll implement that suggestion of yours, too and give both a try.

One thing regarding Custom Browse that might be worth mentioning.
By default "Custom Browse" is only shown as a single menu item, but optionally you can configure it to show some or all of it sub items directly on the top at the same level as the current "Custom Browse" menu.

In my current SlimServer 6.5 setup I have the following browse menu structure (The text inside () is just description so you know what each menu is):

BROWSE
    * Albums (From Custom Browse, replaces standard menu)
    * Amazon (From Custom Browse, browse by Amazon subjects)
    * Artists (From Custom Browse, replaces standard menu)
    * Music Folder
    * Decades (From Custom Browse, browse by decades instead of years)
    * Dynamic Playlists (From Custom Browse using Dynamic Playlist plugin)
    * Favorites
    * Favorite Playlists (From Custom Browse using Dynamic Playlist plugin)
    * Favorite Statistics (From Custom Browse using TrackStat plugin)
    * Genres (From Custom Browse, browse by genres and sub genres)
    * LastFM (From Custom Browse, browse by LastFM tags)
    * New Albums (From Custom Browse, replaces New Music with data from TrackStat)
    * Random Mix
    * Ratings (From Custom Browse, browse by ratings in TrackStat)
    * Playlists
    * Statistics (From Custom Browse, shortcut to TrackStat plugin)
    * Tags (From Custom Browse, dynamic browse through all tags available)
    * Years (From Custom Browse, replaces standard Years menu)

So I guess my point is that this list could be rather long, so I would like to avoid to have to fall back to two finger panning to navigate in it.

As a side note, I'm not sure what you have in plan regarding a native iPod Touch application. But to me it feels like a native application using the same JSON communication as the Jive remote would be the true solution. If you have the same feeling it might be worth considering to just make every part of this skin work with the basics and instead implement the bells and whistles in the native application. A native application would also allow coverflow navigation since third party developers now also has found a way to implement similar coverflow view as Apple on the iPhone/iPod Touch. However, I think I read somewhere that your idea was that the native application should just handle the top/bottom toolbars to avoid the two finger panning, and in that case it feels more important to get my plugins to work really good with this skin.

[pippin]

I guess my point is that two finger panning is bad, so it feels a lot better to have a full one finger scrolling view in this case where you don't see the bottom toolbar without scrolling.

Yep. I really have to figure out how to do this with IUI. Unfortunately, it's not easy...

One thing regarding Custom Browse that might be worth mentioning.
By default "Custom Browse" is only shown as a single menu item, but optionally you can configure it to show some or all of it sub items directly on the top at the same level as the current "Custom Browse" menu.

How do you do this? Do you modify the "additionalLinks.browse" hash somehow? If yes, this should work but then I understand why you need the single list...
See above, I have to figure the scrolling out. Problem is, I can only try this with the iPod since the layout behavior is different from any other browser, even Safari on PC, so this always a bit of an annoying thing to test...

As a side note, I'm not sure what you have in plan regarding a native iPod Touch application. But to me it feels like a native application using the same JSON communication as the Jive remote would be the true solution. If you have the same feeling it might be worth considering to just make every part of this skin work with the basics and instead implement the bells and whistles in the native application. A native application would also allow coverflow navigation since third party developers now also has found a way to implement similar coverflow view as Apple on the iPhone/iPod Touch. However, I think I read somewhere that your idea was that the native application should just handle the top/bottom toolbars to avoid the two finger panning, and in that case it feels more important to get my plugins to work really good with this skin.

I'm not sure either.
Both have their charms. I would like to have the native app, but this would mean to implement all the functionality myself, no plugins. I can't use the JIVE SW architecture since that is closed source.
The Browser idea looks like a compromise to me. I would probably implement some UI stuff (Drag'n'Drop Configuration, Buttonbar, NowPlaying screen, etc) plus the Squeezebox protocol natively and have the browsing done through Safari to cover the generic UI.
See the discussion in that other thread as well (I see you found my point there ;-)

[mherger]

I can't use the JIVE SW architecture since that is closed source.

Where did you get this idea?!? Jive is fully open sourced and available for download.

[erland]

Where did you get this idea?!? Jive is fully open sourced and available for download.

I thought you weren't allowed to distribute your modifications of Jive without permissions from Logitech ?
Are you saying I'm allowed to modify Jive and distribute an iPhone version of Jive without legal arrangements with Logitech ?

[erland]

How do you do this? Do you modify the "additionalLinks.browse" hash somehow?

The plugin interface allows a plugin to register one or several entries in additionalLinks.browse (or additionalLinks.browseiPeng for that matter).
By default Custom Browse only registers additionalLinks.browse.PLUGIN_CUSTOMBROWSE, but you can also configure it to register some of the individual sub menus. This is done in the Custom Browse settings page in de section for enable/disable menus.

The idea is that you should be able to use the standard SC browse menus but add new ones with Custom Browse or replace the existing once if you like to. The user shouldn't really have to bother if a menu is provided by Custom Browse or by standard SC, it should look the same in both cases.

[pippin]

Where did you get this idea?!? Jive is fully open sourced and available for download.

Here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?JiveArchitecture

It says "Logitech Public Source" as opposed to GPL, LGPL stuff on the other layers.
I did not succeed in finding the "Logitech Public Source" license itself but I am assuming from the term, that it means you have a publicly available source code the rights on which are retained by Logitech.
If that assumption is wrong, please let me know where I can get a copy of the "Logitech Public Source" License document.

[erland]

please let me know where I can get a copy of the "Logitech Public Source" License document.

I suppose this is it:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/jiv...g/jive/LICENSE

Point 2 is the problem, it quite clearly states that you are only allowed modify it for personal use.

I started a separate thread regarding these licensing issues here, to get a clear answer about what is allowed:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=41672

[pippin]

No need to discuss.
##2,3,6 and 9 are completely unacceptable.
Done.
3 and 6 keep me from even downloading this since I will grant rights on any FUNCTIONALITY included in Jive to Logitech. Even though I don't think this claim will hold I don't want to argue about it, so I just don't accept this License, even as a User.
[EDIT: EXCLUSIVELY was wrong, it says NON-EXCLUSIVELY]

[erland]

No need to discuss.
##2,3,6 and 9 are completely unacceptable.
Done.
3 and 6 keep me from even downloading this since I will grant rights on any FUNCTIONALITY included in Jive EXCLUSIVELY to Logitech. Even though I don't think this claim will hold I don't want to argue about it, so I just don't accept this License, even as a User.

Sean made a comment regarding it some time ago here:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...374#post199374
I think the license looks a bit harder than it actually is, I think the purpose is to make sure no other company can use Jive and its trade secrets without permission from Logitech.

But let's continue any further discussion in the license thread I started in the Jive forum and keep this thread for the iPeng skin.